Please share your favorites, secrets and tips!

There have been a couple of suggestions lately and it's made a tink this would be a great activity night for our Scouts! I've got some survival-themed nights coming up, and they'll enjoy this.

We're going to try this one, suggested by Sue:

Try this instead of Sterno.

Oh, this is so embarrassing! I thought I knew all the homemade stoves, and I found a new one!

I don't know how I missed it. And it's so simple... it makes a soda can stove look like brain surgery. One version is even at Zen Stoves, but this one has a handy screen that keeps the contents from spilling.

Grab the rectangular Altoids tin you aren't using for your EDC anymore.

Get some perlite (expanded white volcanic stone -- from garden centers) and a piece of aluminum window screening (not vinyl).

Set the open Altoids tin upside down on the screen as a template and mark around the edge with a marker. Cut it out, and trim the corners a bit. Form another piece of the aluminum screening into a temporary cone sieve and put a handful of perlite in it, shake a bit and discard all the perlite that falls through the holes (it's too small). Put the larger stuff into the bottom of the tin. Repeat if you need to, to fill the tin. Lay your cut screening over the perlite and tuck the edges under the rolled rim of the tin.

Add denatured alcohol to the perlite and light it.

BE AWARE that burning alcohol is practically impossible to see in daylight. Let it burn out and cool completely before you close the lid. Wave your hand over it to make sure the flame is out.

Be sure to set the stove on something that is heatproof, and you'll need something fireproof to raise your food/drink container above the flame, like some regular bricks or a circle of hardware cloth. And you'll need a windscreen if you're using it outdoors.

You can use any alcohol, but as HikinJim says in his stove blog, if you use Kleen-Strip® Green™ Denatured Alcohol, it will burn hotter than things like Sterno, rubbing alcohol and Heet, so you can actually boil water. Alcohol also produces less carbon monoxide, so it's safer to use indoors (still, use some common sense).

The Kleen-Strip website and MSDS

Try this on for size
Tuna Can Stoves

Link corrected by HJ

My batch-load inverted downdraft gassifier stove made from cans:
Part 1.
Part 2.
-Blast

How about the sterno can ???

We are using all cans for stoves , why not sterno cans ???

After it is consumed fill with perlite and ... you don't even need any screen.
Use the lid to extinguish the flame.

There is an advantage to using the sterno can in particular.
You can take a sink drain , remove teh center screw and rubber ... Then put it UPSIDE DOWN on the sterno can. It sits just right and will serve as base for the pot.

Not my idea.
I just stole it from U-tube.

It's probably different in Canada, but be aware that alcohol stoves (homemade or even commercially made) violate Boy Scouts of America safety policy. I know it's frustrating, but that's their policy. Go kick a lawyer. I think homemade wood-burning stoves are fine by them and probably more useful in a pinch.

http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss06.aspx

Bacpacjac,

The Altoids stoves are great. Should be a fun project for the group. I would recommend using stainless steel screening though. On my stove the aluminum got brittle and melted.

Thanks Ratbert. Step 2 after initial brainstorming is always to review of the leader's handbook and the policies and procecures manual, before planning the lesson/meeting. I usually understand the limitations. Safety first!

There are Scout troops that don't allow knives, too.

Don't teach proper use, just outlaw it! Yeah.

Sue

Not out group, Sue. Once they earn their knife permit they can carry and supervise less experiencecd youth, under the watchful eye of leaders. They can loss their priveldges for violating safety rules and have to recertify.

Does BSA offer a Merit Badge in bureaucratic obfuscation? The cited source seems a classic of rigid, unbending regulation...

Yes they do offer the badge, but no one has managed to achieve one as yet !

Yes they do offer the badge, but no one has managed to achieve one as yet !

All the forms are caught up in bureaucratic obfuscation LOL

Mike

Yes ! I think if you actuall get the badge, they fail you, because obviously there isn't enough beaurocracy ... yet !

Its easy to rip on Boy Scouts of America for their policies, but can anyone think of another group comprised of thousands of volunteer adults that spend so much time introducing young boys to the joys of camping and hiking outdoors, while at the same time teaching them to be self sufficient, to be leaders, and grow to be good citizens and great neighbors?

Name another volunteer organization that maintains properties to allow young men and women to backpack in the New Mexico mountains (Philmont Scout Ranch), to canoe the northern boundary waters (Northern Tier), and to experience the wonders of the Florida keys (Florida Sea Base).

The BSA policies are there to keep other people's boys and girls safe. Simple as that.

Requiring the use of commercially designed - and tested - chemical fuel stoves, and requiring adults to supervise the use of these fuels is a simple and common sense measure to avoid the horrid disfigurement or death associated with these highly flammable fuels. I'm happy to leave it to the parents work with their kids to build and use homemade stoves.

About the knife thing, all the BSA policy says is "Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish." Personally I agree with that statement. Though I carry both a Ritter Mk3 fixed blade and a Ritter Mk1 folder when camping, the Mk1 gets 99.9% of the usage. The fixed blade really shines in the kitchen and when doing heavy cutting, but for the latter I'm more often using an axe or saw.

Name another organization that teaches hundreds of thousands of youth to how to live outdoors, how to backpack, how to winter camp, how to navigate using a map & compass, how to build outdoor fires, how to cook over them, how to apply first aid, how to shoot with a bow & arrow, and how to safely use knives, axes, rifles, shotguns, and even black powder rifles.

My 16 year old son - a boy with Asperger's Syndrome, a form of autism, is now an Eagle Scout earning his 6th Eagle Palm, and has done ALL of the above. He spent a week at Florida Sea Base last summer, and will be backpacking at Philmont Scout Ranch next summer. Two summers ago the same boy who covered his ears and cried during fireworks came home with the summer camp's shotgun skeet shooting award for weeks' highest score. That little spray-painted clay pigeon is worth its weight in gold to him.

Frankly, I feel bad for young men who haven't had the good fortune of experiencing Boy Scouting. I hope their parents are providing them with this amazing breadth of experience.

Go ahead now - rip on the Boy Scouts of America and their policies, but you're going to come across as kind of foolish.

The United States Marine Corps?

During my life and career in the National Park Service I have had opportunities to interact with Scouts on many occasions, with decidedly mixed results. I would rate the organization as inconsistent. It seems to depend upon the local leaders, and there are a lot of good ones out there, but there are glaring exceptions. Of course, it would be possible to make some of the same observations about the NPS!

The good experiences - I once taught Advanced First Aid to an Explorer Troop. It was a marvelous experience. The students were bright, energetic, and involved. We did the standard stuff and then turned to exercises where we improvised with the things we woudlbe carrying on a backpacking trip. It really paid off a few months later, when one of the participants in the group, now a member of our SAR organization, and I were a team of two looking for an overdue hiker. We found him - in bad shape with numerous injuries. Our FAKs were exhausted and we were improvising like mad. At one point Jeff turned to me and said, "I really appreciate the training you gave us." He is currently a practicing physician. Yes, BSA does good stuff.

On the other hand, I hosted another group of Scouts on Santa Rosa Island. They were rowdy beyond belief. I kept waiting for the adult scout masters to step in and exercise some minimal discipline, but to no avail. Finally one of them told me, with reference to the lead hellion, "We don't say anything to him; his Dad is the Scoutmaster, and we are afraid he might quit if we disciplined his son." I guess those Scouts actually did learn some real world lessons about power and its application.

Then their was the Scoutmaster who threw a hissy fit because his troop could not tour Balcony House (Mesa Verde NP) as one group. The fact that group size was limited because of space and that everyone did get to go through the dwelling was of secondary importance.

Coloring my view was my participation in a long and extensive search over fifty years ago for three scouts who tried to climb Mt Wrightson, near Tucson, AZ, just as an incredibly ferocious storm dumped six inches of snow on the ground in Tucson, with a lot more at altitude. Their troop was planning some sort of survival training the following month. From the analysis of their actions and preparations, it is clear that these kids were totally unaware of what they were undertaking and did not know of the potential hazards. Perhaps BSA should get a pass on this one because the excursion was not an official outing. Still..Like I say, BSA is a mixed bag.

My own sons were in Cub Scouts, but dropped out because the program was, well, mundane. At the time I offered my services to the local scouting group for teaching outdoor and survival topics. I never got any kind of response from the organization.

Making stoves out of cans? Now that's just plain silly. Who would do such a thing?



On a more serious note, I have learned a lot from testing various forms of alcohol stoves. One of the things I've learned is that it's pretty hard to beat a good commercially produced Trangia. You can make a lot of lighter weight stoves though on your own.

The one stove that I've come across with some potential is the "tall boy" stove that can be seen second from the right in the middle row. I've just discovered that design, so I haven't much to say about it (yet). All of the other stoves shown work to varying degrees but none of the other homemade type stoves are as efficient as the Trangia (lower right).

HJ

Jim, when you say efficient, you are referring to some measure of liters of water boiled per ounces of alcohol consumed, right? Do you have figures on how efficient the Trangia is compared to some of the others?

It boils down to the ultimate question - how many days use will it take the more efficient Trangia to overcome its burdensome (3 oz!) weight? Enquiring minds want to know....

How is it possible that no one has as yet favored us with a Titanium Trangia (Tirangia?)?

Very eloquent and point on post Ken. Although BSA and in other countries are not perfect, I have had the opportunity to know and hike/camp with many ex Boy Scouts who really learned a lot about the outdoors, life, leadership etc and are upstanding people in more ways then most would ever give them credit for.

Trangia did put out a Ti version for a while. I think just the windscreens were Ti. It was relatively expensive compared to the aluminum versions -- and the aluminum versions were (still are) already quite expensive. It must not have done well; it was discontinued. Part of what may have killed the Ti version was that Trangia changed their alloy. Their current alloy is quite a bit lighter than say my pre 1988 version. I'm not sure there was enough weight savings between the current alloy and the Ti versions to justify the cost.

There is a Titanium burner available from Evernew that is similar to a Trangia burner. It is not as efficient as the Trangia burner from the tests I've seen.

And, yes, when I say efficient, I mean the ability to do "X" amount of "work" (boiling water in this case) with a given amount of fuel. In my tests, the Trangia burner in a stand alone configuration (i.e. without the patented windshields) was able to boil water consistently with less than 3/4 fl. ounce whereas many of the stoves shown in the photo above could not.

I haven't done the painstaking work to calculate the break even point where the greater efficiency of a Trangia burner makes up for the lighter weight of some of the aluminum beverage can burners. That's a lot of work if you do it right. Time hasn't permitted.

As a "short cut" (partially), I just "baseline" any alcohol stove I test against the Trangia burner. If it can't match up against a Trangia, then it's not particularly efficient. If it can beat a Trangia, then it's a pretty darned good burner. My Caldera Cone when used as a system (cone + 12-10 stove) beats a Trangia in a Clikstand set up in terms of efficiency. I haven't compared a full Trangia 27 set up to the Caldera Cone (sort of like comparing an aircraft carrier to a PT boat, totally different class of thing).

HJ

Pretty cool. Wish wood fires weren't so frowned upon in (dry) Southern California. I could (if you'll pardon the expression) have a blast.

From Blast's blog: Say it isn't so!

Good thing that hasn't happened to me.


HJ

Yeah, you've made thousands of stoves and never once got addicted!

Exactly! I'm glad we cleared that up.

HJ

On a more serious note, re the following:

I haven't tried the exact stove that bacpacjac is describing, but:
-Probably any denatured alcohol will work.
-"Green" denatured alcohol has a higher ethanol content than most denatured alcohols and therefore will burn a little hotter which might give you a little faster boil time.
-Methanol (such as HEET in the yellow bottle) will work although it might be a little slower than denatured alcohol. Methanol is typically a better choice than denatured alcohol in cold weather.
-Sterno tends to be really slow. I don't think anyone would try to scoop out some Sterno onto bacpacjac's stove, but just in case that was on your mind, it probably won't work very well.
-Isopropanaol (rubbing alcohol or HEET in the red bottle) will kind of work, but it's typically a big, smokey mess.

I definitely don't recommend isopropanol and sterno. The other three (regular denatured alcohol, green denatured alcohol, and methanol) should all work reasonably well. High proof drinking alcohol (at least 150 proof) will also work, but that's an expensive way to go and, well, it seems like kind of a waste.

HJ

Thanks kd7fqd. Great thread! Making a tuna can stove is now on our project list!

Do you think this would work with an altoids tin as well?

Thanks Blast!

Thanks gang! It's going to be fun to experiment with at home.

DS tried to make a wood burning stove out of a pop/soda can in the summer and his twigs ended up burning through the thin aluminum. We're going with stronger cans from now on. He's got a collection going of different ones and I think we'll start with the tuna can this weekend.

Physics IS fun after all!

Ken, I could not have said it better myself. I am one of hundreds of thousands of men who really can look back (I just turned 40 this September)at my past and see how much Scouting and the Explorer programs influenced me. I made it to Life Scout but not Eagle. Very few people make Eagle Scout, Please pass on to your Son for me a hearty Well Done!
Matt

2 small soup cans, 2 large soup cans, 2 large coffee cans, 2 half-size large coffee cans, 2 tuna cans, 2 altoids tins, 1 pack of esbit fuel tabs, 1 pack of zip fire starters, some wax, some butcher's twine, some corrugated cardboard and a pile of twigs ready for experimenting this weekend with DS.

Attempt number one, in July 2011, of making a stove out of a pop can was a fail.



Lots of heat but we burnt through the can and had to put it into the can we put on top of it to try to boil water.



Lesson #1 - don't put you can stove on something flammable like a woo. The wooden pinic table we were using got scorched.

Lesson #2 - keep to hand something the you can handle the burning can with (i.e. tongs, oven mitts) and somewhere to put it, or some way to snuff it if it gets out of hand.

Lesson # 3 - aluminum cans are thin and a roaring twig fire inside them will burn through them.

I made the Altoids/perlite/aluminum screening/Green Denatured Alcohol stove a few days ago, and it worked just fine. I didn't measure the amount of alcohol, just spilled some in. Two cups of water in a blue-enameled steel cup boiled in about 7 minutes, but this was in the house, not in the wind. I set the stove on one red clay brick (flat), set two more on edge on each side, placed a small kitchen rack over all, and lit the stove.

The aluminum screening was new, and didn't show any sign of melting, but I wouldn't be surprised if it deteriorated after multiple burns. I stopped in at a local metals shop and asked about SS mesh, but they didn't have any. A coarse expanded steel mesh cost $5/sqft, so I'll assume SS was out of my financial range. I got 3 sqft of window screening for $1.24: lots of stoves!

Jackie, aluminum can stoves don't seem to be strong enough to tolerate flames right against the metal. I'm not the expert that HikinJim or Blast are, but I would limit them to the double-wall alcohol (only) stoves. The regular soda can stove has a double wall, and I think only the fumes burn. When you set a container on them (pin holes on the outside, below the rim), the fumes flare out to make a nice burner.

I wouldn't make the tuna can (cardboard/wax) stove with anything but a 'tin' (steel) can, like tuna cans or the cat food cans that require an opener.

And if you're burning sticks, stay with the steel cans, too, for the reason you discovered. Aluminum has its place, but not for everything.

I ran across some empty paint cans while looking for the Kleen-Strip Denatured Alcohol, and bought one. I wonder if there is a simple way to remove that coating inside?

Sue

Out of curiosity, did you happen to find out if there are any Scouts Canada restrictions on making alcohol stoves?

Not yet Dennis. We're starting with wood stoves and then moving onto the tuna can ones. We decided to leave the alcohol ones for now. Two can stove projects is enough. We may revisit it before our annual weekend portage trip in the summer.

I will find out though Denis.

Here's a preview of the prototypes we'll be using:

Tuna can stoves ready for wax:


Steel can wood stoves made out of soup cans, ready for the dremmel:


And nested together with a bigger can for storage and a cook pot:


*Note: the black stuff in the bottom of the cans isn't mould, it's metal shavings. Need to clean them out before taking pics.

Thanks Sue!! We definitely learned our lesson about aluminum pop cans. The altoids alcohol stove is still on our to do list at home. Thanks for the tips!

I have homemade stove envy.

Denis, I couldn't find anything specific in the Policies and Procedures. Here's the response I got from our Group and Area Commissionor when I asked about making alcohol burning stoves:


He's a very experienced guy and someone that I respect a lot. His word is as good as gold to me when it comes to interpreting the BP & P.

I don't believe "explosions" of alcohol stoves are much of an issue. White gasoline and kerosene are another matter. At least the stated policy is sane, flexible, and reasonable.

I think the Super Cat stove is just about as simple and safe as one can get with any kind of stove. Any kind of fire carries risk of some sort.

Just because Scouts Canada says we can do something, doesn't always mean that we should. (i.e. We can take them on back country excursions if we complete the proper paperwork but we've all heard of groups who have done that without the proper skills base, and ended up in trouble.) Likewise, lots of people think that we have no business taking our Beaver Scouts camping because they're too young. Our group says bull-pucky to that! One of the guiding principles of our group is always to know our youth (and our leaders) and guage risk based on that knowledge.

(BTW - Explosion may not be an inherant risk, but in the hands of youth who give a higher priority to what's funny rather than a proper risk assessment, it's a definite possibility.)

Thanks for the info bacpacjac.

I had suggested pop can alcohol stoves as a fun activity to one of the Scout leaders and after seeing this thread again was wondering if I had given some bad advice. For risk, I'd tend to think they aren't much more risky than the white gas stoves they use camping, but I'll let those guys do their own risk assessment if they decide to try it - just wanted to ensure I didn't suggest something blatantly disallowed .

I also like the idea of hobo stoves designed to run off of a wood fire. My primary hesitation about them is the Alberta's Provincial Parks have regulations in place banning the use of dead wood for fires which really sort of defeats the purpose of a wood burning stove for a fair bit of the camping they might do, either with Scouts or especially on their own with their families (there are areas they could be used though).

On a side note, I seem to recall making a tuna can stove like that when I was a kid; they seem like they'd be good for an emergency kit. We also made smaller rolls of cardboard tied with string and dipped in wax as fire-starters.

That's a really good point Denis. As part of our risk assessment, we need to be mindful that a lot of what we introduce them to may be tried outside of Scouts, with or without proper supervision, preparation, caution, etc. It's not always a reason not to do something but definitely something we should consider.

My pleasure Denis!