Just found this story

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jetblue...=MW_latest_news



Regardless of the source/story What would you do if you where stuck on a packed plane due to snow on the ground for multiple hours on end?

This is a particularly difficult exercise given silly TSA restrictions and extra baggage charges that have been causing folks to try to pack all the things they need for the trip in their carry on luggage.

I would think the most important thing to have with me would be an extra cell phone battery or portable means of charging the cell phone so that I could reach someone at the airline to let them know how I felt.

Although, in this case, if they would not listen to the pilot, I do not know what good my call would do.

With no bathrooms, establish a pee corner. Preferably as close to first class as possible, send a message...

It is moments like that when you are thankful that you are prepaired. Normaly I carry a way to charge my cellphone, and I carry a smart phone. for me it would be Netflix on my phone and an atempt to chill as much as posable.

after hour 3 I would be talking to somone asking them if the idea of going back to the terminal wouldn't be out of the question.

In extreme cases passengers have called police to tell them that they were being held against their will on the tarmac. It seems like these sorts of incidents have become less common since the "Passenger Bill of Rights" passed.

If I flew regularly I'd definitely want an Advanced Boredom Reduction System like an iPad. It's too hard to use even my smallish laptop in coach.

iphone, ipad, books, ipod, pillow so I don't sleep in a bad position. If you raise too much of stink, they can cause you some legal issues for interfering with the drew. Calling someone outside to complain might help. If there is a health issue you can use to your advantage, you might consider it for that long of a stay. I have been there for up to 4 hours without being allowed to deplane. Painful.

A good book to read (several if carrying an i-Pad or Kindle) and some salty and sweet snacks would get me comfortably through several hours. Internet access would easily kill a few hours. I always have my laptop.

And I always have tissues (substitutes as tp) and some other comfort items on board.

There are far worse situations than sitting in an airplane for a several extra hours - that is one which does not worry me. It would be very irritating.

Remember to pack the earplugs -- well worth the fraction of an ounce.

Wow, what a huge lawsuit waiting to happen, I would think the airline would do everything it could to get those passengers out of there. On top of that, huge fines are likely according to the article. I don't see why the airline could not have deplaned people after the 2:00 hours mark or so, or at least deplane those who absolutely needed to get off.

Another bad thing is that the flight was going from Connecticut to Paris. That's a long flight. Did the plane just take-off for the long flight after the delay? That would continue the nightmare.

For me personally, after this experience, I'd end up doing a lot more driving for trips of 500 miles or less. I could entertain myself for days without a problem. That's not a survival issue for me. However, the lack of a working bathroom would be a huge problem for me and for everybody else on the plane!

Having been stuck on the tarmac for four hours before, it's pretty rare that I'll get on a plane for any reason any more.

Its good to remember - Its not that it was impossible to get off, its that someone decided not to drive a stairs over to the plane. ALL airports have portable stair units for passengers to walk down and into the building. They decided not to use them. And all 22 gates busy for every minute of the 7 hour delay...hard to imagine.

Big +1 on the ear plugs Dagny! In any group that size there is always more than enough noise to go around.

The article indicates that the airport was struggling with lots of snow and power outages:



If that article is nearly anywhere close to accurate you would need to use one snow cleaning machine to prepare the route for the portable stairs (which typically are motorized, and will get stuck in snow). Probably you'd also want to use a shuttle bus to ferry them from the stairs. You don't send 200 frustrated airline passengers walking for perhaps half a mile in a blizzard.

I'm speculating here, but I would guess that the airline company has absolutely no authority over the snow cleaning equipment. Which would be busy trying to keep the runway and taxiways clear, not really bothering about some plane parked in some airplane parking lot.

I would also guess that anyone capable of commanding the combined use of stairs and snow cleaning equipment would be totally overwhelmed with the calamity of the situation.


EDIT: I can't imagine those in charge of an airport saying "NO" to a clearly stated request for a quick assistance to relieve 200 passengers from more hours in discomfort (such as using one snow truck for 10 minutes). That request was probably never made.

Making that kind of requests requires that you A) think a little creative beyond protocol, B) takes initiative, and C) know who you should ask.





Also, those 22 gates could very well be occupied for the whole time by planes that were waiting for the situation to improve before going anywhere.

Book(s), a place to refill my water bottle, munchies, and working bathrooms and environmental controls, and I'm good. For a complete screwup, add in water purifier tablets and a change of clothes. I got stuck on a train a couple of years back with no air condition, no flushing toilet, and a 5 hour delay. The water bottle and a pair of shorts and t-shirt made life easier for me then most of the other passengers.

A couple of people are going to get clobbered for this one. The 7 hour AmericanAirlines delay was the fault of US Customs who refused to let anybody deplane from the Paris flight. I don't know what happened with the Jetblue flights since that was domestic.

Well there is a 3 hr DOT limit for domestic flights, however there is no DOT defined time limit for international flights.

There are policies and procedures in place to deal with this kind of situation, and at certain time intervals the crew should determine if any passengers wish to deplane and not continue on the flight, and then coordinate with ground personnel to make that happen.

Course in a blizzard neat policies and procedures don't always function the way they are supposed too, but 7 hours seems extremely excessive.

Edit: Course there are always exceptions that include safety or security reasons, which includes weather.

There's a transcript of the pilot talking on the radio to the airport that very clearly says otherwise.

I wonder what the tower and airport authorities would have done if the pilot declared a formal emergency that was a threat to the passengers? Say someone could not stand it anymore and was smoking in the lavatory, and threw a lit cigarette but in the towel bin, causing a smokey fire?

I assume the airport would have found a way to get the passengers out and to safety.

Now, why couldn't they simply declare the same emergency and get everyone out? I fear the that "the rules" simply prohibited it.

My trapped on a plane experience: Mid-70's trapped on a 747 grounded overnight by a snow storm at Dulles International Airport, which had been diverted from NYC when JFK shut down due to same storm; we were coming in from Frankfurt. No food, no water. Dulles was my destination. We sat there, flew back to JFK the next AM, went through customs, got on another plane and flew back to Dulles. Stated reason by Pan Am: customs procedures.

The "trash bin" in the lavatory is actually equipped with a fire extinguisher now days for just that reason.

Declaring an emergency isn't something you do just because you're uncomfortable, but because there is a very real threat to the folks onboard.

oops, sorry, I didn't intend to imply a false emergency be declared; only that 1) the folks needed help and 2) there must have been equipment available (the emergency equipment) that could have gotten them off the plane.

IMO, the conditions on the plane called for evacuation. The same equipment used in a fire on board could have gotten them to the terminal.

For a plane stuck for 7 hours, there's a high chance at least one person was beyond merely "uncomfortable" and had an emergency situation. Non-working toilets alone for that long are pretty high on the priority list. Was there at least one baby/small infant on the plane? Did anybody have health issues?

It may be easy to think of this matter in terms of one's own needs as a fully healthy adult. However, I can't imagine all people on the plane fall into the category of "fully healthy adult". In this type of closed environment, problems of others become shared problems after a certain amount of time.

I'm no pilot.

With that said, in that sort of emergency, the passengers would have been evacuated immediately via the inflatable slides.



The declared emergency would have stopped other operations and the firefighters would have responded.



I'm no lawyer, either.

With that said, that would have been a false distress signal, a federal felony.

Don't get me wrong I agree that the people should have been deplaned when it became apparent that the flight wasn't going anywhere for a long while.

Beeen there done that, except it was a thunderstorm instead of a blizzard, and we pretty much emptied the service carts and gave all the snacks and drinks/water to the folks as they were waiting in the terminal.

I completely agree that there are folks who could suffered more than just the normal pain of sitting in a modern day airline seat, and the situation was completely unnacceptable.

I have a hard time believing the snow was falling so hard that it was impossible to get these folks off these aircraft. Somebody dropped the ball somewhere and just let this happen.

You can get a lot done with a phone call to the right people, for example I got a taxiway closed in less than 30 min when the company I was working for at the time was repainting all the lines on the ramp and somebody forgot to talk to the airport admin people about it.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/jetblue...=MW_latest_news October, weekend, snowstorm
Weekend snowstorm. Say it fast three times

I wonder how much of this goes back to the logistics available at that airport, on a weekend, during a snowstorm with a whole lot of airplanes that landed there by necessity and a lot of other aircraft that didn't leave as scheduled.

Was all the equipment they would have in winter to move snow and de-ice aircraft available in October?

I have serious problems with the idea of being "trapped" in a perfectly good airplane that's sitting on the ground. I would have personally volunteered to risk life and limb to hop down to the ground and go find a stepladder to borrow from maintenance.

Call it out of the box thinking, but is it really that far out of the box?

Yuck. Not a good situation. I also think it's ridiculous that they couldn't seem to find a way to get those people off the plane and back to the airport for a delay like that. 7 hours? I once was stuck in a plane sitting on the tarmac for three hours in Toronto because of thunderstorms, and that was no fun, despite having a water bottle and some trail mix with me as well as books and headphones to entertain myself. Thankfully it was not a full flight, so nobody was sitting next to me and there were no screaming babies or obnoxious passengers, or the situation would have been far less tolerable. The suggestion someone had about earplugs is not a bad idea, although I am always uncomfortable wearing them in situations where a bunch of random strangers are around and I'm not traveling with anyone I know. At least with headphones one can still hear their surroundings if necessary.

Maybe you have not been on a flight in a while or watched the news, but that plan would have been been more in the box rather than out of the box. The box I'm referring to is a cold jail cell. They might not have been able to get mobile stairs to the plane to relieve the suffering of the passengers, but I guarantee a nice federal agent with bracelets would have been waiting at the gate for you if you deployed the slide without the authorization of the flight crew and that authorization would not be given without an emergency.

I am surprised that no one opened one of the emergency doors and slid down the emergency exit slide.

I can't go that long without several pee breaks and I would have been going crazy by then.

David Enoch

This may be a stupid question and if so, sorry. Why in the world wouldn't the bathrooms function? I've been on flights that lasted at least that long and there wasn't a problem. I too have been stuck on the Tarmac for several hours because of thunderstorms. I don't recall there being a problem getting up to the bathroom, but maybe I'm mistaken. It has been a while. Bit of a head scratcher for me.

LW

I don't know anything about this particular incident that isn't in this thread, I've been on many planes that had bathrooms that were out of service.

Not a definitive answer, but just guessing, based on what I know about how airplane toilets work. And assuming there isn't some mechanical issue, like a clog, that can knock out the system--

The modern vacuum system used on airplanes uses a separate reservoir of fluid used with each flush. The fluid doesn't come from the holding tank, as it does on older systems. Once that reservoir is dry, it is difficult to flush any solid waste. The conjecture part of my answer is that the vacuum pump may actually shut down when the flushing fluid runs dry, so even liquid waste may not be "flushable" at that point.

I guess the other logical answer is that the system shuts down once the holding tanks are full and can't accept any more waste.

Do you think? Perhaps I was not clear. For the reason you mentioned, I wouldn't dare exit the plane in an unauthorized manner unless there was a true life threatening emergency. The inconvenience of being a virtual prisoner on a plane through no fault of your own would be better than being an actual prisoner who is guilty. So, let me try again:

"The flight crew and airport staff need to think outside of the box. Why not disarm the emergency slide and open the door so someone can go borrow a #$%@ step ladder?"

My point is that it is not impossible to more or less safely exit an aircraft without a jetway. If the only thing stopping them from letting you off is that it is not "normal" then I would be very frustrated.

I think the answers are pretty easy. The member of the flight crew that opens the door without an emergency or without a jetway or mobile stairs attached loses his/her job. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. Apply for unemployment.

Unless the plane is a model with the rear stairs, I can tell you that I'm not teetering on a 10-foot extension latter on icy ground to make my exit unless the thing is on fire. I doubt half the people on my last flight could have made it if the plane actually was on fire.

The flight crew's hands were tied. If they wanted to feed their families next month, they had to wait for the airport authorities to do something. Supposedly, a truck with mobile stairs or even a service truck with a scissors lift bed would have done the job. The people at the airport apparently were content to blame the power failures and no one wanted to risk their livelihood to do anything proactive. Its sad that we have sunk to this level.

Ok, I thought that I was really failing to communicate here, because you seemed to be still missing the point up until your last two scentences.

So, let's extend and revise my comments further:
"The airline and airport management, the TSA, the feds and everyone in authority need to think out of the box."

HEY!

That wuz MY idea!

(establishing a pee corner)

The more one thinks about this, the easier it is to be desensitized and feel like this 7 hour delay is not such a big deal. However, I'm still confounded how the airline and others involved would take such a big risk. From the airlines perspective, it always comes down to money. I would think the managers and executives would escalate this situation to priority Number 1 in their lives and get those people off the plane ASAP. The potential to get sued and lose lots of money must go up exponentially as the clock keeps ticking. This situation is bizarre on many levels.

Or maybe I'm wrong and the risk is not great, or the airline is well insured for this exact situation (?).

I'm only half joking - I was on a Continental flight some years ago with a 5 hour delay, no bathrooms, and the passenger sitting next to me peed into another passenger's water bottle for relief. There was simply no choice, and for all I know the flight crew emptied other containers for other passengers to use. Since then I have never gotten on a flight without an empty bladder.

Years before that experience I also remember a flight in the days of the USSR from Tashkent to Kiev where the bathroom erupted and was totally unusable let alone approachable on foot, and Soviet citizens - who knew well the odds that the plane might crash, and had come on board stinking drunk - were peeing in vodka and orange drink bottles. The stench was terrible, so peeing passengers was the least of our problems.

Good times...

Ok. Just to play Devil's Advocate: What if those people had gotten off the plane out there on the tarmack? Blizzard. Ice. Power failure back at the airport. People not dressed for the weather or traction. People physically unable to make the walk back. Poor visability for everyone - passengers, crew, the other vehicles between them and the terminal...

Dont cha think there may have been a few issues? Maybe a lawsuit?

I agree that 7 hours is a long time. I would have hated it. It would have been uncomfortable. But was it really an emergency? Any moreso than the other planes the airport crew was dealing with?

Frankly, I think I'd rather get to the terminal in the plane than on foot, even if I had to wait in that thing for 7 hours with my ADHD kiddo.

If a lavatory is inoperative, that aircraft is going to be restricted to flight legs that are relatively short because everyone realizes how uncomfortable it can become when you're not able to go. I haven't looked up the specifics, but the limitation would be outlined in the minimum equipment list (MEL).

MEL is a list where everything on the aircraft that can be broken is listed and what must be done to operate the airplane safely.

On the airplanes I fly, the lavatory is of a recirculating type, where the blue fluid is filtered and re-used, but at some point the waste holding tank would become full. Which is probably a smaller problem on international sized aircraft, but on the smaller 50-100 seaters, for example, the system wasn't designed to be utilized all day without servicing.

Out of curiosity:

Do the airlines have control/ownership over gates and shuttle buses?

Could the even plane manouver to a gate?

C ould another plane have had passengers deplane, move and let another waiting plane in?

Would walking passengers through the underbelly of the airport have been an option? (i.e however the ground crews come and go)

These are things that make me say "hmmm".

Note to self, who was once delayed in Houston for over four hours: If you ever fly again, be prepared for a doubly long delay. Bring extra meds, something to pee in, entertainment, food and water. And dress not to arrive but to survive. Hey! Wait a minute. I already do this however and wherever I travel.

Didn't we have this conversation last winter, about passengers stuck in a train overnight during a snowstorm? Wasn't our rally cry then to be prepared?

Although each carrier may its own regulations regarding MEL, as far as laws are concerned, it seems that we air passengers are entitled to squat (sorry!) when it comes to lavatories on commercial flights. Out of curiosity, I was looking into the topic and the only relevant US law seems to be the Air Carrier Act of 1986, which requires a working lavatory on planes with more than one aisle, that were manufacturered or refurbished after 1992. And there are no requirements that say you need a lavatory per given number of passengers. Apparently, the mighty Airbus A380 could take off on a flight (at least within the US) with 500+ passengers and just one working lavatory and be perfectly within the law.

The law has huge gaps. There are plenty of single aisle planes, like the workhorse Boeing 737. Apparently, they aren't legally required to have any lavatories! I'm not sure if there are any commercial planes that haven't been "refurbished" since 1992, but those would also not be covered under the law. Please tell me we're entitled to more than this under the law!

The FAA "writes" a master MEL for each aircraft which then gets tweaked and approved by the FAA for each particular airplane based on what's actually equipped.

So things on the list should be relatively uniform across aircraft types and companies. A carrier can go more strict than the FAA, but never more leniant.

I stress againt I haven't looked it up, because I don't have a MEL book at home, but for example;
The FAA MEL might say that an aircraft being dispatched with an inoperative lav is restricted to legs no longer than 60 min.

The carrier can then restrict that further to something like 45 min, but never go beyond 60 min.

Just simplified, because there would be a whole bunch of other things to do as well, but that doesn't really need to be addressed for the purposes of this discussion. (Placarding, Maintenance paperwork, etc...)

I have seen some pretty bad cases of stuck airplanes. But pray it won't crash. It's better to wait several hours in the air than die instantly.

----------------------
Protect yourself by wearing ballistic body armor.
http://balistcbodyarmr.livejournal.com/

lol. I suppose you have a point there.

Still, in cold weather, lack of food can equal a slow death.

Weather fast or slow, I prefer not to die, particularly when a bit of prep can allow me to choose neither!

HJ

The lavatory is not a required item for dispatch on most airplanes.

Here are the MMEL remarks for the 737 series airplanes.

Associated lavatory system(s) may be inoperative provided:
a) Associated components are deactivated or isolated to prevent leaks,
b) Pilot-in-Command will determine if flight duration is acceptable with a forward lavatory unusable, and
c) Associated lavatory door(s) is secured closed and placarded “INOPERATIVE – DO NOT ENTER”.

Assuming most airplanes would have similar remarks, I'd guess it is pretty much up to pilot discretion, so you should hope that your flight crew likes to drink a lot of coffee!!!

- Eric

lol!

HJ

That's what I thought. The MEL is for safe operation of the aircraft and passenger safety, not passenger comfort. The Operations Manual would probably cover that. I never had to deal with this specific issue, though. The only lavatory issue I ever had to deal with was "if the lavatory blue water vent is leaking and the hydrolic tail bumper is inop extended, add 10% to fuel burn". (MELs [Minimum Equipment List] are not written like I wrote it. It's an "IF" + "AND" = "THEN" balance sheet format.)