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#234634 - 10/28/11 04:22 AM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: DavidEnoch]
SARbound Offline
Addict

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 503
Loc: Quebec City, Canada
In my opinion, in an emergency overnight ordeal, you will not sleep, either because you will be too stressed out or you just won't feel like sleeping at all...

A basic silnylon tarp will allow you to protect yourself from the wind and rain, you already got a Heatsheet so that's good, and you also need some form of insulation from the ground. A foam bum pad is the minimum, you could get one that's torso-length for more body coverage.

Just build a fire, gather some firewood, sit down and let the night pass... if you've never experienced such a thing, you will realize that the night goes by pretty quickly when you are busy gathering wood (a good folding saw is a MUST), thinking of a better way to keep your fire going, sipping on water here and there, looking through your survival stuff... trust me!

I've spent a few nights in the wilderness without sleeping at all, in the winter (< 5 &#8457; temperature), simply by building a big fire and pitching a tarp properly.

P.S. : Dry socks are a very, very nice touch, always carry a spare pair in your backpack, even for short hikes.
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#234640 - 10/28/11 12:54 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: SARbound]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I have slept in such situations, but only fitfully. Even so, I was surprised at how much better I felt in the morning, and how much my energy had rebounded. Simply resting does one a lot of good.
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#234641 - 10/28/11 01:09 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: DavidEnoch]
bacpacjac Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3601
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I totally agree about your clothing being your first line of shelter. Dress for worse than your worse case scenario and put what you don't wear in your pack with an extra pair of socks!
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#234645 - 10/28/11 01:57 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: DavidEnoch]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Hiking above 10,000 feet you won't have alot of available firewood, or much of anything to string a hammock between (unless you find some really conveniently placed rocks). I vote for a bivvy for shelter, although I tend to carry a lightweight tarptent on longer day hikes where I could find myself out at night. The tarptent isn't a 4-season tent, but I know from experience it would keep me moderately warm and dry, even in snow. I also recently became an owner of a Stephenson 3R, which is a 4-season tent and takes no more room than the tarptent, so I may switch to carrying that on longer hikes. Around here nighttime temperatures and weather call for insulation and staying dry, so carry what you need for that - at minimum a 2x2 sitpad (always useful), better yet a z-rest or better still an inflatable sleeping pad. But at 10,000 feet I think you will want your insulation enclosed in a bivvy or tent to keep it dry and you more comfortable. And imho if you don't already carry enough clothing to stay warm and dry through to the end of every hike, you shouldn't be going out at all.

I spent a night in my backyard in one of the AMK solo bivvies a few years back and wrote about the epxerience here. I was fully clothed as though I was on the trail and spent the night comfortably beneath a friendly cedar in my yard, no real condensation although I've heard others say I must have been drenched with it (I wasn't). Comfortable, but not alot of insulation value. I carry an AMK bivvy in my pack at all times - for the same reason that I once carried a Tacoma Mountain Rescue orange plastic emergency tent, as a last ditch shelter - but usually that's my giveaway to a fellow hiker who needs shelter / assistance (if you can't move them, you can always cut a $11 bivvy open and lay it over them for shelter).

And don't forget a bit of food - food before you settle down for a long cold night food will start your engine (metabolism) a bit and warm you.

I recently read a trip report from a wahoo who went out bushwacking over tough terrain and spent an unexpected night on a steep traverse, no shelter, no clothing except his shorts and a fleece top - and borrowed food and water from his fellow hiker, who followed this twit up the mountain. Lots could go wrong in that scenario, but it didn't, so actually he didn't really learn very much from it. The gods smiled on them so it didn't rain on them all night. Coulda though.

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#234653 - 10/28/11 02:38 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: DavidEnoch]
JerryFountain Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 418
Loc: St. Petersburg, Florida
David,

I was raised in that country, and have spent many unexpected nights out without camping equipment there and lots of other places. What you have is a great choice, but I would add a more sturdy version of the heatsheet. I use a Space Sportsmans Blanket. If you are in the timber, pitch the reflective blanket as a lean-to with a fire in front. Use boughs or pine straw as a mattress, covered with the poncho. Wrap up in the liner and enjoy a fair night's sleep in fairly severe temps (at least if you sleep as easily as I do). You may need to tend the fire a few times at night, but a few hours sleep at a time will let you rest well.

Don't expect the lean-to to last if you just string up the blanket. Take some time to make a frame of small wood and, particularly if it is snowing or blowing hard (common in Colorado), cover it with boughs.

Use the other things you carry for help. My ruck has a removable foam backpad. Place it under your hips or shoulders. Remove your boots and replace your socks with the dry ones everyone has recommended. Then use your ruck as a foot cover.

Drink plenty of water (hot is best). Eat some of the spare food so the fire in you can keep going. Fats, proteins and complex carbs feed you longer. Food and drink is particularly important to staying warm.

If you are above timberline, sit on the pad in a protected place (from the wind/snow,rain) put the ruck over your feet, use the poncho, liner and sheet as layers. Pull the liner snug around you. Use the sheet and poncho as a mini tent, not so tight to minimize condensation. Some cannot sleep sitting, but if you can it can be a relatively comfortable night if you brought enough clothes. The Inuit use this technique (although with their large parka as the top and their mittens to sit on) to weather out blizzards. In some really nasty conditions.

Respectfully,

JerryF


Edited by JerryFountain (10/28/11 02:40 PM)

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#234654 - 10/28/11 03:14 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: Lono]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 309
Loc: north central west TX
when insulation is required inside a bivi bag, i suggest a looking into a Blizzard Bag

http://www.botachtactical.com/blsubag.html

based on the original concept made by MPI Outdoors (which i can't find any longer), this british-version lightweight ultra-thin mylar bag is really three emergency "space blanket" bags nested inside each other and joined by internal baffles. it insulates unlike most mylar bivi bags.







i think this thermo inside a heavy-duty shell would be a perfect combo, allowing one to use the shell alone if warm or just raining, and using the two together in colder environments. its what i carry in the wilderness (but have yet to personally use them).

when these bags first came out i read one review by an ultralight hiker who used a blizzard bag as his primary sleeping bag. he claimed to be comfortable in temps below 20*F.

here's a thread about the concept:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/...le_pagination=1

and here's a link to an old ETS thread asking about them:
http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=33608

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#234655 - 10/28/11 03:22 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: wileycoyote]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
This thread has produced lots of good suggestions; I would only add that whatever you choose to carry, it would be worthwhile to set up your equipment and give it a trial run. Carry it and use your emergency shelter on a regular trip where you can move into something more substantial if necessary or set up in your backyard. If you ever need to use your rig, prior experience will be very helpful.
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#234660 - 10/28/11 04:05 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: DavidEnoch]
Glock-A-Roo Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 1076
IMO, the USGI poncho is too heavy and bulky for what it brings to the table, especially if the user is a dayhiker and not a soldier. In the environment you describe, you should have some type of waterproof/breathable shell (even if it is simply the venerable DriDucks jacket, which is pretty darn good for the money). So "poncho = raingear" shouldn't be part of the thinking. Ponchos suck in general as raingar, but they REALLY suck in windy mountainous areas where you need to see your feet as you move through rough terrain.

A dayhiker's emergency gear has to be uniquely light and compact, compared to an intentional overnight backpacker who expects to bivy. So I would say your emergency shelter system should have 3 components:

1) an emergency bivy bag of some sort, like the AMK models or just a big clear bag to crawl into. Weight: around 5 ounces or less.

2) an improvised tarp of some sort, like the 2-person AMK heat sheet (which is 5'x8') tied off at the corners with a sheet bend. If you have the money consider a 1-man silnylon tarp or go whole hog with a small cuben fiber tarp. Add 50 feet of Kelty Triptease cord for 1 ounce. Weight: 4 to 8 ounces (depending on fabric and size).

3) simple, light, immediate insulation from the ground, like the Gossamer Gear 3/16" evazote foam pad. Evazote is fantastic stuff. This pad gives you an immediately clean, dry, warm(er) place to sit out the nasty weather. Supplement it with natural materials, of course, if they're available. The pad is great material for an improvised splint, and it is useful on every hike during rest stops. Weight: 4.5 ounces.

So for around 1 pound or less, you can have an effective, versatile, and compact dayhiker shelter system that weighs less than a USGI poncho alone. Like hikermor wisely pointed out, practice various setups ahead of time and learn how to best deploy this modular set of gear.

This is just a first-pass idea, there are lots of options out there. In particular, explore the cottage gear makers who serve the light/ultralight markets.

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#234661 - 10/28/11 04:07 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: hikermor]
wileycoyote Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 309
Loc: north central west TX
Originally Posted By: hikermor
This thread has produced lots of good suggestions; I would only add that whatever you choose to carry, it would be worthwhile to set up your equipment and give it a trial run. Carry it and use your emergency shelter on a regular trip where you can move into something more substantial if necessary or set up in your backyard. If you ever need to use your rig, prior experience will be very helpful.


so true. i should for these bags i mentioned never having tried. problem is they're like Pandora's box: once opened they can never packed anywhere near as small again. if i were born a richer man, i'd've bought doubles of each and tested one set. so instead i take a chance they're as good as stated. i've been carrying them for 20 years and just hope i'll never need to depend on them. dumb, i know, so maybe you've pushed me to actually test 'em...

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#234662 - 10/28/11 04:12 PM Re: What is the minimum shelter I should carry? [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3840
Loc: USA
Thanks Glock-A-Roo! Very useful post.

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