Something to spark a discussion:

I have had the opportunity to work with many scouts (100s at least) and it concerns me how very, very few can build a fire. An order of magnitude fewer scout leaders, but for the greatest part, neither can the majority of the adult leaders. Take away everything but a knife and some matches, and the number that CAN start a fire drops even more dramatically.

Many cannot strike a match; others cannot operate a simple butane lighter, and the vast majority who can have no concept of "wind", distance from standing up to fire lay vs burn time of match, etc etc.

Backtracking a little: This is Northern deciduous forestland. NOT connifer forest. Connifers are RARE and so is birch (even rarer, perhaps). Forget using those types; they are not common. We have Oaks, ashes, maples, elms, walnut, occasional hickory (this is the northern margin of hickory; none exist 20 miles north), and so on. Oaks dominate the uplands and the usual suspects dominate the bottom lands.

I can and do teach these folks the ignition end of firebuilding without much difficulty - ferrocerrium + prepared spark-catchers, matches, butane lighters - all are fairly simple to teach a skill on except matches elude some folks (practice, practice, practice).

I conclude we've scared the bejabbers out of enough generations now (don't play with matches) that many people "instinctively" fear that they will spontaneously explode into flame and die if they so much as strike a match... this is not extreme hyperbole on my part; you have to observe as many folks as I have, but it's there - something is there... very frustrating, but persistance, patience, practice and a few tricks I use seem to work.

So I've had great success with the spark/flame end of things. But when it comes to materials gathering, prep, fire lay... arrrrgh!!! Either not enough repetitions (that's all the time consuming part) or no matter HOW well they demonstrate they understand & can do it, the next time that kid/adult needs to build a fire, they doofus it up as if they never knew anything. ( A FEW do ok except that they plod along at an agonizing pace, taking an hour or more to get everything set up and ready before striking the first spark/flicking a Bic) Darned few seem to retain any skill.

I think part of the difficulty is lack of practice - I can have a learner strike and move dozens of matches under my supervision in a fairly brief timespan, but in that same timespan, only one full gather/prep/lay is possible. It DOES NOT help to have them work in groups - the dominent person takes over and no one else learns anything (...and I know how to manipulate the group dynamics, but that's MORE time). Gotta happen one person - one fire lay.

Anyone have some practical ideas to help teach this? I'm not gonna give up, but it's pretty frustrating right now.

Regards,

Tom

AYERS TG: i have had the same problem with scouts i teach in basic survival skills. with me the krux of the problem is time. as i help out with my buddys church scout troop i get about 1 day a week for 3hrs. a night. this does nothing to help these young minds retain the info i give them . so i do the best i can...vince . <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

As you stated correctly the key would be practice. If the students don´t practice on their own (e. g. for Bar-B-Q or camp fire on weekend trips) their chance for aquiring that skill is pretty slim. Most modern households do no longer require to use a match or a lighter. The only way to build this skill may be to encourage your scouts to try and build a fire on every opportunity. In the case of the kids you may have to convince the parents to allow it.
I know some people who have a hard time when they have to light a fire with perfectly dry fire wood, good kindling, paper, gasoline and a small torch in dry weather with no wind. You have to see it to believe it but it´s reality these days.

Fire starting, or fire keeping?
You mention how much time it takes for some of them to get ready to start a fire. If they are doing the correct things, gathering the correct combustables, that may not be so bad.
I have seen plenty of scouts "start fires" only to yell to one of their partners, "Quick, go get some wood!" The idea being that starting a fire is one thing, but keeping it burning is another. Being prepared upfront to do both is what is important.

You do have a dilemma, it seemd to come naturally to me when I was a scout, but I can also understand how young people now adays have no natural need to start fires. Arsonists aside.
I guess if I were to teach a course in fire building now, the bulk of the time would be spent on teaching preparation; location, clearing the area, wind, fire circle or pit, gathering the proper combustables, proper assembly of the combustables, etc.
The least amount of time might be spent on striking the match.
I think fire building/maintenance is 95% preparation, 5% ignition.

I commend you for being involved as a teacher of young people.

I wish I could help you, but unfortunately I have no ideas. All I can say is that you are not alone. A while back I saw a show on TV. It was at the USMC Mountain Warfare Center in the eastern Sierra. These poor instructors were having a pretty hard time teaching the young Marines how to light a fire, mainly using issue mag. sticks. Out in the snow several did manage to get a nice warm looking fire build. On the snow. You should have seen the looks on their faces when their roaring fire suddenly dropped out of sight and nothing but a cloud of steam was left...

If it makes you feel any better, my son, who is 4 1/2, goes with me into the woods behind our house and there we do "fun" things like build an improvised shelter, find edible plants and, of course, we build fires. He often pretends to hunt for deer, which we "cook" over our fires. We do this not just in good weather, when it's easy - we were out there in the snow just the other day, where I showed him how to look UP for dry fire wood, how to deal with keeping a fire going in snowy & rainy & windy conditions, how to make tinder, and how to keep a fire under control. We've build dakota fire holes, we've dug burn pits, we've tried every technique we founf in the US Army FM-261. We've lit fires with tiny sparks and pocket fuzz and we've lit fires with Trioxane tabs. We've lit fires with steel wool and a "D" battery. We've used antiseptic towlettes to kindle a fire. He's got his little swiss army knife with him all the time, has a small first aid kit in his little backpack and I'm damn proud of the fact that he knows all about tinder, kindling and firewood - AND how to use them (with some help from Dad, of course).
So, it's not everyone...just most.

Interesting replies from everyone - thanks.

I didn't write that no one can start fires; MOST cannot.

W.R.T. the prep-time - the issue I have with some is that they never get a match lit - it is endless preparation and a fire is not produced - just a superb preparation. It should not take an hour under ordinary conditions - a few minutes - perhaps 5 - it's not about racing, but taking over an hour and never actually producing flames is absurd. This is mostly an adult syndrome in my experiance - not all adults, but enough to merit mention.

With the scouts in our troop, I've repeatedly talked to scout-parent individually about practicing firebuilding at home. All agree to but few actually do. Guess what? The ones who have practiced at home can reliably make a fire under ordinary conditions, which what I expect from the average scout who is unrelated to me.

All of our scouts live where they may build small fires in the back yard and I've even offered the use of our backyard (no one has availed themselves). Opportunities abound.

I have Scoutmasters contact me wanting me to "...teach us how to make snowshoes, build shelters, camp in the winter, and stuff like that..." in two hours on a Saturday... HELLO! (Substitute similar activities in other seasons). I don't even try to accomodate those vague requests - I show up prepared to do anything and decide what I'm going to do with them after I've chatted with the group on-site for 5 or 10 minutes - so far, so good. Talk about wanting instant gratification... and these are earnest folks who are actually spending a lot of time and energy, vesting years into each boy.

I'm not ready to conceed on the problem. It's wholly different than teaching ones own children - we only have the boys for a little time weekly. I'm drifting into some programatic vehicles, but the details are not yet gelled in my mind. That still only addresses our troop of boys, but that would be a start. More ideas welcome.

Thanks again for all the comments!

Tom

Maybe you should make a race out of it. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I taught a Wilderness First Aid course last October, mostly for a youth group but there was one adult volunteer who came because he wanted the certificate, and a couple of the youths were 16-18. One of the scenarios we did was based on a canoe trip where the canoes capsized and the occupants had "swum" to shore. Later, we took this a step further; I grabbed two volunteers and got them to lie down on blue tarps along the edge of the road (it was a fenced off back road and they were in no danger, just so you know). Then I split the remaining students into two groups and said "Okay, that exercise we did with the canoes yesterday? Well, you've just come ashore and realised that a member of your group is missing and has been swept downstream. Let's go look for them."

The casualties were instructed that they had a broken collarbone and could not move that arm; they were holding onto a tree by the side of the "river" and had been immersed in cold water for the past 5 to 10 minutes, so they would be suffering from hypothermia.

Sure enough, as I expected, the groups quickly found their missing members and began having a committee meeting to decide what was the best way to get the casualty out of the river. Suddenly I yelled "Your casualty is going to lose consciousness in 10 seconds - 9 - 8 - 7 ..." By the time I got to 6, both casualties were out of the river. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For those adults who think they need 2 or 3 hours to build a "proper" fire, give them an emergency situation - a member of their party has fallen through the ice, the temperature is a few degrees below freezing, the casualty is in severe hypothermia and they have 15 minutes to get a fire going or he/she will DIE! - then stand there with a stop watch ticking off the minutes in a very loud voice. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If you have members who really know their stuff and you don't want them taking charge, make them the casualty; or give them another injury (e.g. a broken leg) so they can shout instructions but can't physically assist.

It sounds like part of the problem is that, for most people, this stuff isn't *real*. If adult volunteers are taking over an hour to build a campfire and then not lighting it, maybe they're really afraid that it won't work and they'll look foolish in front of their kids. Or maybe it's just that "lighting a campfire" is seen as boring, when compared to making your own snowshoes or building a lean-to. Maybe they just need a little adrenalin - and maybe a little friendly competition - to make it seem exciting.

I noticed that even after getting their casualties out of the "river", my students' attitudes remained at a heightened level for the remainder of the scene. It was no longer "we have a problem to solve, what's the best solution?", but "we got a friend who's not going to make it, let's get moving!"

I don't know if this will work, or if you've tried it already, but if you decide to do it, then make sure your scenario is realistic, and that it rules out solutions you don't want them to come up with (e.g. the guy who went through the ice was carrying the camp stove and he jettisoned his pack when he went under, so they can't simply fire up the stove to keep him warm).

Aardwolfe,

I use a similar scenario from time to time <grin>. However, I hadn't considered using competition in training... doh! Thanks for the seed idea.

As for the adults - the ones I know well are just that - concerned that they will goof it up in front of the kids.

I think I'll step thru competition with our troop - patrols first, then buddy teams, then individuals. The weather should be beastly by the time I get to individual competion (March).

Thanks

Tom

Vince,

That's neat that you help out with a troop. If you have an opportunity to plan and carry out a weekend for the Troop, I predict that you will have a blast and teach the boys a lot all at the same time.

Regards,

Tom