The part that I always see them falter on is preparation. They never seem to understand how much tinder and kindling they need. Yet they'll always manage to drag a huge trunk from a down tree half a mile for ther fire!

I like the competition idea, but beware of the "pile 'O leaves to burn the string" syndrome. Perhaps the rules need to be set so that the fire produces sustaining coals, which would even bring in proper fuel selection (hardwood vs. softwood) in to play.

This week I saw a Jambalaya contest on TV where the "young folk" competed in their own catagory using mini-dutch ovens, they appeared to be about 4" diameter. Perhaps the contest could involve baking a personal cobbler contest as well.

I got my own curiosity going when I mentioned the small DO. SO I did a search and I found only one. Camp Chef has introduced a 1 pint DO. I found it on Cee Dub's web site and it's called the Baby Dutch - Lewis and Clark Commemorative . Thy're temporarily out of stock for a few more weeks becasue of unexpected demand (good sign).

Hello,-I'm a Relative Newcomer to this Site and Forum. And certainly this Thread. I Have Many Years of Firebuilding Experience Behind me, and a "Sense of It All". Even if I'm Not yet Up on All of your Methods and Gadgets / Means,-I am Well Experienced and "Firesensed".

I Know One's Gotta "Guttily Go Along"!,-with the Moment to Moment, Conditions of a Firestarting Situation!,-One Can't just Merely and Doobily Go Thru the Obligatory Motions! -To Do That is a Real Hit or Miss Affair,-and It's of course Most Typically Often,-a Miss! -No Dang Wonder!,-that Such Firestarters often Don't Get It! -It of course Shud Not be a Matter of "Dah!,-I Guess I've Got to Put Another Stick on Now!" -But All Too Often,-I'm Afraid some Novice Firestarters are Under such Illusions and Spirit! At Least back in my Scouting Days and Troop,-a Good Enuf of my Fellow Scouts,-were More or Less Like That!

- Point I'm Driving At,-is that you've Got to Have the Materials, Means, Equipment,(If Only a Match!), and Techniques / Methods,-All Right,- -But you've Also Got to Have the Spirit and Sense of It All!,-the Leadership Guiding Over It and the Wanting To!

But the Firecraft Lackings Common among Many Scouts,-that I've been Much Reading of here Lately,-Has Begun to Become a Little Too Much!, for me. I Have to Make a Constructive Comment and Contribution.

And This concerns,-the Sizeable Prevelence,-for Whatever Reason,-of Sorry Firecraft and Firesense,-Among Many a Scout! I again was a Boy Scout once myself,-and I Know Well How at Least in my Troop,-a Lot of Fellow Scouts were Pretty Much just Obligatorily Going Thru the Motions!,-Heart and Spirit Not Really in It!,-Frankly Often just Goofing Around! So Much of Successful Firebuilding is WANTING to Build a Fire!,- Sure the Proper Materials, and their Relative Combinations, Timing, and Placement, -are So Much of It as Well. But Somebody's Gotta WANT To! -As Well as Have the Overall Sense, Knack, and Spirit of It All!

With Many of Them Not Really Wanting To!,-Thats One Major Reason a Lot of Scouts Don't Get Fire Prep, Starting, Control, or Maintenance!,-Down Pat.

Now Other Scouts are,-Really and Intently Enuf Trying to Get It.,-But Still Somehow are Off some of the Firestarting Wavelength. At Least They Do Want To,-and Are Trying To.

Here as Elsewhere,-It Comes Down to Leadership, Knowledge and Firesense, and a Sense of Working with Youth or Boys.

Someone of course Doesn't just Set Down Sticks in Any Old Timing or Way!, - Now when One Does Operate So!,-Just Doobing Steps and Sticks Down Any Old Way, -No Dang Wonder some Don;t Get It!,-and some Pretty Sorry Firestarting Efforts be Present!

It's a Sense and an Art,-Not Only a Pure Skill or "Science"! Once One Has Got That!,-as Well as the Requisite Amount of Correct Materials in the Right Placement and Combination,-One Quickly Finds that Firecraft is Certainly Not Brain Surgery,-Nor Nuclear or Rocket Science!,-( the Work and Attention that Can Go Into Making a Successful Fire,-Notwithstanding.)

It Comes Down to the Knowledge and Firesense Base of the Scoutmaster or Others in Charge,-as Well as of Course the Leadership, and Sense of Working with Boys. -All of Which I'm Sure you All Well Have.

Some Scouts could Care Less,-Others Care!,-but are Too Off!,-of a Truly Outdoorsy Spirit and Wavelength. You've Ventured what you Feel to be Likely Reasons for Such,-in Other Posts on this Thread. -Too Much "Citified" 21st Centurying,-is Quite Likely Going On! Even with All the Best Knowledge, Knack, Experience, Materials / Methods / and Means, Leadership, Firesense, and Other such Things as I may have Mentioned,-on the Supervisor / Instructor's Part,-You've Got something of a "Hill to Climb"!,-if you've Got to Work with either Disinterested, or Somewhat "Too Citified and 21st Centuried Up"!,-of Pupils.

And It's the Going Cultural Wave and All!,-They're Not Exactly Gonna Buck Up Against It! -Knowingly or Unknowingly. -If It Comes Down to an Awkward Conflict between their Scout Troop and It's Scoutcraft!,-on the One Hand,-and the Waves of Their Predominant Peer Society Out There!, on the Other, -Guess Which One some of Them are Going to Much More Likely Choose?!

Still I'm Quite Sure you've Got some Quite Exemplary Scouts!,-I Don't Mean to Suggest that All Scouts are "Too Citified, 21st Centuried Up, Non Outdoorsy, Disinterested, Sad and Sorry Firestarters"! I Remember some Great and Exemplary Ones!,Back from my Own Scout Days and Troop!

Keep Plugging Along!,-and Doing your Best by All the Boys in your Troops,-as I'm Sure you Well Already Do! As Always,-You'll Have Boys Who Readily Get It!,-and Others Who can Be Brought Upwards Toward Getting It!

Scouting and Scoutcraft was Born in Times Before Many of Us Had It "Creature Comfort Good"! Thats Why Many Scouts Naturally Fell in Synch and Line,-Back in Days of Old! And Thats Why some are Somehow Off It,-Nowadays!

I Don't Know How you Exactly Get Past That!,-It's a "Hill to Climb"! All I can Advise!,-is Don't Lose Heart Too Much!,-Things Oftentimes in Life Aren't as Bad as They Seem and Look!,-Keep Plugging Away!,-As Long as There's even One Boy Receptive to you There, or Elsewhere So!,-He Needs You!,-and You Eminently Have a Place!

In Short, Fire Sense and Craft Comes Down to Something More than Actual Means, Materials, and Methods, of Starting a Fire,-Vitally Important as All Such Are! It Also Comes Down to a Certain "Gut Sense" of What It is All About!, -and of a Really Wanting To!

This has Not been so much a Firestarting Nuts and Bolts Post,-as It's been a "Larger Sense of What It's All About!",-of a One.And I Apologize for any Repititions which may have Occurred here,-in my Drafting and Editing Process. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]billvann[/email]

I remember back in the scouts, when I was a Jr leader, telling the new guys to "go get wood". 1/2 hour later, I'd find them playing grab a** and I'd ask, "where is the wood" - I'd almost always get one of 2 answers - I could not find any, or "there" with a finger point to a tiny pile of sticks. I would then lead them into the woods, and start gathering kindling and tinder. They always wanted to know why I wanted so much wood. I always told them that it takes more wood than you think

Tom-
I feel your pain. I run the Wilderness Survival Merit Badge, as well as teach Venture crews on the subject, etc. Some of these kids are sooo out of touch with the wilderness that they have no idea about how to go about starting a fire. I've witnessed the "group fire building" someone always takes over and wastes all the matches because they don't know how to use matches! Can you imagine teaching bow-drill methods (fire by friction) to these kids?
The problem is that they don't PRACTICE!!! They don't practice knots, lashings, fire building, shelter building, etc. They might have to build a survival kit, but they don't maintain it. I'm 18 years old, I got my Eagle award last year. I practice these skills all the time, in all kinds of conditions, and I'm still not perfect. These kids aren't really encouraged to practice because the BSA is so rabid with the Leave No Trace principle. There is a way to practice without destroying the wilderness. I could go on for hours, but that's my opinion I could be wrong. I'll sum it up like this: "There is no graduation day in the school of the woods".--Horace Kephart

I just bought Tom Brown's "Nature and Survival for Children". One thing he suggests is that, to teach young kids the bow drill, you start by giving them the bow, spindle, fireboard and handhold pre-made. If you get them to make their own, they'll get frustrated and give up; if they have a set that works, they're much more likely to succeed. Only after they are proficient with starting fires in this way should they go on to constructing their own set of tools.

This may sound obvious to most of you, but it was a revelation to me. All the books I've ever read on the subject start with a detailed description of how to make the components, and only then described how the tools were used. So I guess I unconsciously assumed that was the way it had to be taught. Brown's method (which was the way his Grandfather taught him) makes so much more sense.

When I was a Boy Scout I guess it was a little different. This was only about 15 years ago. I really think that children are coddled to much anymore. I won’t rant about specifics. Let me tell you how I learned many skills while on scouting trips. Get the boys into the woods. Gather them around. Collect all of there tent pegs and fire starting material. Matches, lighters, flint and steal etc. Then give each boy five matches and something to strike them on.

Inform them that each of them will need to start there own individual fire or he will be one of the unlucky ones eating cold beans and franks that night. Suggest that they look for some good tent pegs while they are collecting tender and wood for the fire.

You may look like the bad guy to begin with but the kids that get it right will have a new sense of pride and accomplishment. The kids that didn’t get it will be eating cold beans but give them another chance the next day with 5 more matches. I know I didn’t miss the second time.

Cameron
Chicago IL

Well, your post finally embarrassed me into going out and testing my own fire-making skills.

About a year and a half ago, I bought a big bag of firewood (split pine logs) but have never had a place I felt I could build a fire. (I live in an apartment style condo with no fireplace.) Last weekend, I decided that even if I couldn't build a fire I could practice splitting wood without an axe.

I own a half dozen Eriksson knives (the 3.5" ones with the red synthetic handles) so I took one to see if I could "baton" (I think I'm using the term correctly) one of the logs. It was fairly easy to slice off a thin piece of wood from the edge of the log, then use that as a wedge to split progressively larger pieces. I ended up with the log split into two pieces about the size of my forearem, a couple of smaller pieces, a bunch of kindling sized pieces, and some smaller fragments - I was really surprised by how easy it was. (In fact, I intend to demonstrate this and then have the cadets practice it - under close INDIVIDUAL supervision - when we go snow-shoeing at the end of February.)

Anyway, I stuffed all the pieces (including the smallest fragments) in a plastic bag and put them, and the knife, in the trunk of my car.

I also have a couple of biscuit tins left over from Christmas. I took the smaller one and used my SAK to punch holes all around the bottom, then I put it inside the larger tin and threw that in my car as well. I figure I could use the smaller tin as a small, portable firepit, and the larger one is a convenient way to store it afterward (as well as make sure the fire is out).

Well, today I drove up to the Rona hardware store in the Northwest of the city (I'm building a sled for the snowshoeing trip and I needed some PVC tubing and some eye-bolts). On my way back, I passed by Bowness park, and I remembered, from the last time I was there, that they had small firepits. Well, okay - I've been putting it off long enough - could I really make a sustainable fire on my own? Time to face reality....

It didn't seem very cold or windy when I got there, but I checked the aviation weather on the Internet when I got home later and aqt the airport, it was minus 18 Celsius (= 0 Fahrenheit) and the wind was 17 knots out of the North.

First problem - no matches or lighter. However, I do have a 7-NH mag/flint rod that I keep in the glove compartment, so I grabbed that. I also had a newspaper (yeah, I know that's cheating, so sue me <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) so I grabbed that as well.

I was more or less dressed for the weather, except that for some stupid reason I had no gloves. But I wasn't going to be far from the car, so no problem, thinks I.

The "fire-pits" are actually small barbequeues and there was about 2 inches of snow in the bottom of each of them, so first order of business was to scrape all the snow (and the underlying ashes) out on to the ground; I used one of the medium sized pieces of wood for this.

Then I crumpled up several pages of newspaper and put them in the bottom of the barbie-pit. They didn't stay crumpled up and expanded somewhat. Next I tried building the smaller pieces of kindling into a tipi shape, just like it says in all the books (and shows on Ranger Rick's site <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). This is surprisingly difficult with no gloves at 18 below (Celsius). <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Next order of business was to try to get an actual flame. I knew I'd never be able to ignite the newspaper with just the ferrocerium rod, so I had to scrape off some magnesium flakes.

It's true what they say about those flakes - with a 17 knot wind out of the North, they blew away as fast as I could scrape them. This was where the biscuit tin came in handy; I was able to scrape a good-sized pile of flakes in the bottom of the tin. Next time, though, I'll line the tin with newspaper so they're easier to collect afterward.

Finally, show time. I shook the pile of magnesium shavings onto a piece of newspaper in the bottom of the firepit; meanwhile, the rest of the newspaper started blowing away.

Lesson #2 - if you're fortunate enough to have a newspaper, put something heavy on top of it so you don't lose it.

Anyway, the FeCe rod ignited the magnesium and within a second, the newspaper was blazing away. My tipi of wood sticks was kinda lying flat beside it, but I propped them up against the side of the firepit (lesson #3?) and soon got them burning away quite nicely.

Once I had all the smaller pieces burning, I had to figure out what to do with the three biggest pieces. I tried just placing them on top, but that squashed the tiny fire and nearly extinguished it; I took the big pieces out, was able to reconstruct the tipi without burning myself, and then did my best to prop the two largest pieces up directly over top of it. Eventually I did get all three of the largest pieces burning, though it was a struggle to keep them burning, I found, and eventually the fire did go out.

The fire didn't give off a lot of heat, I found, (it was really a very small fire) but I was able to warm my hands by holding them in the firepit.

After the fire went out, I threw the three largest pieces in the snow to make sure they were out, and used the lid of the biscuit tin to dump snow on the ashes in the firepit. Then I assembled everything back together, put the three pieces of firewood back in the plastic bag, and headed back to the car.

As an aside, I was somewhat shocked by how cold my hands got on the walk back. Even though it couldn't have been more than a couple of hundred yards, I had to keep blowing on them. I was even starting to worry that they might be too numb to unlock the car door; then I found myself wondering what I would do if the car didn't start. (Of course, it would probably have been a non-issue if I'd had gloves - or even if I'd had the sense to drop what I was carrying and stuff my hands in my pockets <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

One thing I think I will add to my survival kit is one of those disposable aluminium lasagna dishes - I think this could fold up quite flat, but I could use it to collect the magnesium flakes and prevent them blowing away. Of course, maybe a large paper or plastic bag (large enough to get both hands into) would do the trick just as well. Or I could try folding the newspaper into one of the "Napoleon" hats that I used to wear when I was a kid.

Anyway, I think it's obvious that I need a lot more practice, and I think I found a place where I can do it to my heart's content. (As long as I don't forget my gloves next time <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Another Thought since Having Occurred to me. -And That's to Have Them in a "HAVE TO Build a Fire of a Situation"!, -If you Could Actually Do It. I'm Reminded of a Post I've recently Read, -concerning First Aid Training and It's Like. It Speaks of a Simulated, -"The Guy's Gonna Die!,-in a Few!,-If you Don't Get to Doing Something Quick!", -Kind of Training.( That is NOT Any sort of Quote!, -I just Use It to Illustrate the Concept.)

-Take a Rather Coldish Day if you Can. -Then Have Them Gather Wood and Build Fires. ( I Assume All "Classroom" Type Pre-Teaching's Already been Done.) -It'd be a Case of,- -"No Fire!,-No Warmth!" I Think Many a Scout's Gonna Learn to Gather Up various Sized Sticks, -as Dry as All Possible, -apply Their Firestarting Source, -Shield It from the Breeze or Wind, -Feed More Wood on,-in something of a Proper Way, -And Get a Genuine Fire Going!, -For that Warmth that They Want and are Going to HAVE TO Have!

-Thats a Best Way of Getting Them Motivated and Teaching Them! -Again,-Only to the Extent that you Can Actually, Legally, Etc Do That. It's the Same Motive as in that First Aid Example again!

-They're Creature Comfort Kids in Creature Comfort Times!, -as I've said in my Last Post here. Scouting was Born in PRE-Creature Comfort Times!, -once again, -When Scouts both HAD TO !,-and Only Naturally Wanted To!,-as Well. It Again Comes Down To, -That Someone's Gotta Naturally WANT To!


As to This Kind of Pathetic NON Firesense as you Guys Speak Of!, -So Prevalent Among Many of Them Nowadays, -THIS !, -I would Say, -IS Probably the Only WAY TO Break It! -A "Fire or Freeze"!, -Sort of Exercise.

If you Want To Hopefully Get Past It!, -Maybe you Shud Really Consider Trying This!, -to the Extent that you Can. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

Cameron also Says This Very Well in His Post! He Got in a Little Ahead of me, -and I Echo Him on That! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]