There are a few places on this thread where I could have posted a reply, but I decided to stick it hear as it's an extension of the "Leave No Trace" mentality.

First of all, I echo your sentiments. "back when I was a scout," we did not have propane stove as is the standard today. The rational makes sense but we lose the opportunity for practice. Aside from the instructiona and testing for a specific requirement, scouts today only build one fire per weekend on Saturday night. We used to cook on fire and charcol grills (no lighter fluid) every meal. Practice makes perfect. Hey, Tom. Perhaps a weekend of all wood fire camping as a theme is in order. Bring the firewood with to observe the low impact camping philosophy. Depending upon the number of scouts in each patrol, nearly everyone should have an opportunity to serve as fire marshal at a meal. Wouldn't they be surprised how much more effort it takes to make sure you have sufficient fuels for the entire meal. How about including a dutch oven cobbler? <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Secondly, things a far more regimented today. My Webelos den met in the same church as the Boy Scout troop. We didn't have elaborate cross-over ceremonies. The night I finished my Arrow of Light Award, my den leader walked me over to the troop and I joined that night. In fact, a patrol had planned a 5-mile day hike the next day. The patrol leader gave me a list of food and equipment to bring. For lunch, he taught me how to build a fire (I use the same lean-to technique today) and I started it with only one match as I had enought tinder and kindling on hand. I then cooked my first meal over the fire. So one my first day as a scout I passed three requirements towards Tenderfoot (we had no "Scout" rank back then).

Third, and lastly, I too vividly recall the era in scouting in the mid-seventies when BSA purposefully urbaninzed the program in an effort to increase membership. It was technically feasible for a scout to advance all the way up through Eagle without ever having to learn how to light a fire. Of course that would never happen as the volunteer leaders in the field would still insist upon the skills being taught. And some years later the powers at national recognized their folly when enrollment actually plummetted. So now the rallying cry is to "Put the OUT into scOUTing." Of course they never should have taken it out in the first place. But I'm not sure we've fully put it back either.

LNT is a grand goal and I strive for that - a lot more to be written about that, but not here and now.

Our District had its Klondike Derby over the weekend and as usual, I was running a station so I did not get to observe everything. However, there were two opportunities for patrols to demonstrate fire starting skills: The first patrol to arrive at each station was required to start the warming fire for the station and there was an event whose essence was to boil water.

When I was asked to run a station last week, I asked about the scoring on the fire building. I was told 10 points for one match, 9 for 2 matches, etc. I asked about other means of fire starting. Nope - just matches. Understand that I have personally successfully taught scouts from all of those troops how to use a ferrocerrium rod with char cloth and with cotton wool and I've been harping about basics to adult leaders for some time.

Despite the fact that there was no bonus for not using matches, the patrol that started the fire at my station asked if they could use a BSA sparklite instead of matches. I re-iterated "10 points for 1 match, 9 points for 2 matches,..." etc. Being clever lads, they laid a fire and with one swipe had flames that quickly had the main fuel (6" - 8" diameter logs) blazing. I gave them 10 points. (I recognized the scout as one I had taught a couple of years ago - not our troop). Afterwards I found out that 4/11 patrols had done the same thing - no matches. One or two of the other patrols took two matches, and the rest did it with one match.

Now, I felt pretty good about that. But (of course) - they were rather prepared for the event. Their pre-Klondike instructions emphasized that they would have to bring matches, tinder, and kindling sufficient to start a fire that would involve 6"-8" diameter logs as the fuel. All the patrols I saw had enough tinder and kindling to start many fires and most used all of it in the two events. Kindling was universally scraps of kiln-dried lumber split into kindling except for two patrols that used a hatchet on some indigenous firewood - one the night before and one at my station.

I'm not knocking their preparation for the events at all - but in reality, we don't lug around the equivalent of a 5 gallon bucket's worth of tinder and kindling in the woods. So while they all did great (to my happy surprise), it was artificial and did not benchmark much in the way of expedient real-world fire building skills.

Other times, other events where I had control, I have NOT allowed them to use any kindling or firewood prepared in advance - here we are, here are 3 matches, build a fire to accomplish _____. Extra matches cost points. Unused returned matches earn bonus points. Few scouts do well in those circumstances so far - some do VERY well and the others struggle - not much in the middle.

As for our troop - we're getting better. Most campouts use a DO for at least one meal and in this part of the country we never fail to at least have a campfire each night - our favorites are the night hikes. Silent and no artificial illumination, but at the 1/2 way point (chosen for suitability), I have them silently build a small fire and then we skewer bits of venison or elk, sit close around the small fire, and I quietly tell a true story/experience. Bits of toasted meat last as long as the story, fire dead out and taken care of, and we resume the hike. I believe that does more than anything else I've tried to teach them how to start a fire under "real" circumstances, but that does not give every scout enough opportunities to practice.

I've got to get back to work - hope to pick back up on this latter.

Regards,

Tom

I figured you'd jump in on this one! <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Our Klondike is this weekend. Most of the boys are sleeping overnight Friday. Tonight at our troop meeting, the SPL is having each of the patrols practice the firestarting since many of the boys have not done that yet under winter conditions. I haven't been as involved or focused with the troop as in the past because of my new job. But it'll be fun to see how they do. I'll bring my MFS and sparklite as well and see if I can work it in. In fact, perhaps I'll have my younger son, who happens to be with me tonight, start a fire with his SparkLite. That would get their attention! A Webelos starting a fire in winter without a match. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm All for Starting a New Thread on This,-and to Get it Out of Firestarting. "Deer and Foxes in the Woods" may be OK Enuf there, -but I'm Getting to Think that Stone Mountain is Not. And so I'm Gonna Start a New Thread on Stone Mountain Elsewhere. So if Anyone Else has had any Climbing Experiences and the Like on Stone!, -Please Find and Post such There! -Not here in "Fire". [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]