Something to spark a discussion:

I have had the opportunity to work with many scouts (100s at least) and it concerns me how very, very few can build a fire. An order of magnitude fewer scout leaders, but for the greatest part, neither can the majority of the adult leaders. Take away everything but a knife and some matches, and the number that CAN start a fire drops even more dramatically.

Many cannot strike a match; others cannot operate a simple butane lighter, and the vast majority who can have no concept of "wind", distance from standing up to fire lay vs burn time of match, etc etc.

Backtracking a little: This is Northern deciduous forestland. NOT connifer forest. Connifers are RARE and so is birch (even rarer, perhaps). Forget using those types; they are not common. We have Oaks, ashes, maples, elms, walnut, occasional hickory (this is the northern margin of hickory; none exist 20 miles north), and so on. Oaks dominate the uplands and the usual suspects dominate the bottom lands.

I can and do teach these folks the ignition end of firebuilding without much difficulty - ferrocerrium + prepared spark-catchers, matches, butane lighters - all are fairly simple to teach a skill on except matches elude some folks (practice, practice, practice).

I conclude we've scared the bejabbers out of enough generations now (don't play with matches) that many people "instinctively" fear that they will spontaneously explode into flame and die if they so much as strike a match... this is not extreme hyperbole on my part; you have to observe as many folks as I have, but it's there - something is there... very frustrating, but persistance, patience, practice and a few tricks I use seem to work.

So I've had great success with the spark/flame end of things. But when it comes to materials gathering, prep, fire lay... arrrrgh!!! Either not enough repetitions (that's all the time consuming part) or no matter HOW well they demonstrate they understand & can do it, the next time that kid/adult needs to build a fire, they doofus it up as if they never knew anything. ( A FEW do ok except that they plod along at an agonizing pace, taking an hour or more to get everything set up and ready before striking the first spark/flicking a Bic) Darned few seem to retain any skill.

I think part of the difficulty is lack of practice - I can have a learner strike and move dozens of matches under my supervision in a fairly brief timespan, but in that same timespan, only one full gather/prep/lay is possible. It DOES NOT help to have them work in groups - the dominent person takes over and no one else learns anything (...and I know how to manipulate the group dynamics, but that's MORE time). Gotta happen one person - one fire lay.

Anyone have some practical ideas to help teach this? I'm not gonna give up, but it's pretty frustrating right now.

Regards,

Tom

AYERS TG: i have had the same problem with scouts i teach in basic survival skills. with me the krux of the problem is time. as i help out with my buddys church scout troop i get about 1 day a week for 3hrs. a night. this does nothing to help these young minds retain the info i give them . so i do the best i can...vince . <img src="images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

As you stated correctly the key would be practice. If the students don´t practice on their own (e. g. for Bar-B-Q or camp fire on weekend trips) their chance for aquiring that skill is pretty slim. Most modern households do no longer require to use a match or a lighter. The only way to build this skill may be to encourage your scouts to try and build a fire on every opportunity. In the case of the kids you may have to convince the parents to allow it.
I know some people who have a hard time when they have to light a fire with perfectly dry fire wood, good kindling, paper, gasoline and a small torch in dry weather with no wind. You have to see it to believe it but it´s reality these days.

Fire starting, or fire keeping?
You mention how much time it takes for some of them to get ready to start a fire. If they are doing the correct things, gathering the correct combustables, that may not be so bad.
I have seen plenty of scouts "start fires" only to yell to one of their partners, "Quick, go get some wood!" The idea being that starting a fire is one thing, but keeping it burning is another. Being prepared upfront to do both is what is important.

You do have a dilemma, it seemd to come naturally to me when I was a scout, but I can also understand how young people now adays have no natural need to start fires. Arsonists aside.
I guess if I were to teach a course in fire building now, the bulk of the time would be spent on teaching preparation; location, clearing the area, wind, fire circle or pit, gathering the proper combustables, proper assembly of the combustables, etc.
The least amount of time might be spent on striking the match.
I think fire building/maintenance is 95% preparation, 5% ignition.

I commend you for being involved as a teacher of young people.

I wish I could help you, but unfortunately I have no ideas. All I can say is that you are not alone. A while back I saw a show on TV. It was at the USMC Mountain Warfare Center in the eastern Sierra. These poor instructors were having a pretty hard time teaching the young Marines how to light a fire, mainly using issue mag. sticks. Out in the snow several did manage to get a nice warm looking fire build. On the snow. You should have seen the looks on their faces when their roaring fire suddenly dropped out of sight and nothing but a cloud of steam was left...

If it makes you feel any better, my son, who is 4 1/2, goes with me into the woods behind our house and there we do "fun" things like build an improvised shelter, find edible plants and, of course, we build fires. He often pretends to hunt for deer, which we "cook" over our fires. We do this not just in good weather, when it's easy - we were out there in the snow just the other day, where I showed him how to look UP for dry fire wood, how to deal with keeping a fire going in snowy & rainy & windy conditions, how to make tinder, and how to keep a fire under control. We've build dakota fire holes, we've dug burn pits, we've tried every technique we founf in the US Army FM-261. We've lit fires with tiny sparks and pocket fuzz and we've lit fires with Trioxane tabs. We've lit fires with steel wool and a "D" battery. We've used antiseptic towlettes to kindle a fire. He's got his little swiss army knife with him all the time, has a small first aid kit in his little backpack and I'm damn proud of the fact that he knows all about tinder, kindling and firewood - AND how to use them (with some help from Dad, of course).
So, it's not everyone...just most.

Interesting replies from everyone - thanks.

I didn't write that no one can start fires; MOST cannot.

W.R.T. the prep-time - the issue I have with some is that they never get a match lit - it is endless preparation and a fire is not produced - just a superb preparation. It should not take an hour under ordinary conditions - a few minutes - perhaps 5 - it's not about racing, but taking over an hour and never actually producing flames is absurd. This is mostly an adult syndrome in my experiance - not all adults, but enough to merit mention.

With the scouts in our troop, I've repeatedly talked to scout-parent individually about practicing firebuilding at home. All agree to but few actually do. Guess what? The ones who have practiced at home can reliably make a fire under ordinary conditions, which what I expect from the average scout who is unrelated to me.

All of our scouts live where they may build small fires in the back yard and I've even offered the use of our backyard (no one has availed themselves). Opportunities abound.

I have Scoutmasters contact me wanting me to "...teach us how to make snowshoes, build shelters, camp in the winter, and stuff like that..." in two hours on a Saturday... HELLO! (Substitute similar activities in other seasons). I don't even try to accomodate those vague requests - I show up prepared to do anything and decide what I'm going to do with them after I've chatted with the group on-site for 5 or 10 minutes - so far, so good. Talk about wanting instant gratification... and these are earnest folks who are actually spending a lot of time and energy, vesting years into each boy.

I'm not ready to conceed on the problem. It's wholly different than teaching ones own children - we only have the boys for a little time weekly. I'm drifting into some programatic vehicles, but the details are not yet gelled in my mind. That still only addresses our troop of boys, but that would be a start. More ideas welcome.

Thanks again for all the comments!

Tom

Maybe you should make a race out of it. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I taught a Wilderness First Aid course last October, mostly for a youth group but there was one adult volunteer who came because he wanted the certificate, and a couple of the youths were 16-18. One of the scenarios we did was based on a canoe trip where the canoes capsized and the occupants had "swum" to shore. Later, we took this a step further; I grabbed two volunteers and got them to lie down on blue tarps along the edge of the road (it was a fenced off back road and they were in no danger, just so you know). Then I split the remaining students into two groups and said "Okay, that exercise we did with the canoes yesterday? Well, you've just come ashore and realised that a member of your group is missing and has been swept downstream. Let's go look for them."

The casualties were instructed that they had a broken collarbone and could not move that arm; they were holding onto a tree by the side of the "river" and had been immersed in cold water for the past 5 to 10 minutes, so they would be suffering from hypothermia.

Sure enough, as I expected, the groups quickly found their missing members and began having a committee meeting to decide what was the best way to get the casualty out of the river. Suddenly I yelled "Your casualty is going to lose consciousness in 10 seconds - 9 - 8 - 7 ..." By the time I got to 6, both casualties were out of the river. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For those adults who think they need 2 or 3 hours to build a "proper" fire, give them an emergency situation - a member of their party has fallen through the ice, the temperature is a few degrees below freezing, the casualty is in severe hypothermia and they have 15 minutes to get a fire going or he/she will DIE! - then stand there with a stop watch ticking off the minutes in a very loud voice. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> If you have members who really know their stuff and you don't want them taking charge, make them the casualty; or give them another injury (e.g. a broken leg) so they can shout instructions but can't physically assist.

It sounds like part of the problem is that, for most people, this stuff isn't *real*. If adult volunteers are taking over an hour to build a campfire and then not lighting it, maybe they're really afraid that it won't work and they'll look foolish in front of their kids. Or maybe it's just that "lighting a campfire" is seen as boring, when compared to making your own snowshoes or building a lean-to. Maybe they just need a little adrenalin - and maybe a little friendly competition - to make it seem exciting.

I noticed that even after getting their casualties out of the "river", my students' attitudes remained at a heightened level for the remainder of the scene. It was no longer "we have a problem to solve, what's the best solution?", but "we got a friend who's not going to make it, let's get moving!"

I don't know if this will work, or if you've tried it already, but if you decide to do it, then make sure your scenario is realistic, and that it rules out solutions you don't want them to come up with (e.g. the guy who went through the ice was carrying the camp stove and he jettisoned his pack when he went under, so they can't simply fire up the stove to keep him warm).

Aardwolfe,

I use a similar scenario from time to time <grin>. However, I hadn't considered using competition in training... doh! Thanks for the seed idea.

As for the adults - the ones I know well are just that - concerned that they will goof it up in front of the kids.

I think I'll step thru competition with our troop - patrols first, then buddy teams, then individuals. The weather should be beastly by the time I get to individual competion (March).

Thanks

Tom

Vince,

That's neat that you help out with a troop. If you have an opportunity to plan and carry out a weekend for the Troop, I predict that you will have a blast and teach the boys a lot all at the same time.

Regards,

Tom

Max,

Yeah, what you said <grin>. When I was a scout, we only used wood fires on campouts... in this part of the country, it's not an environmental faux pas to use wood fires, so it would be feasible, at least, to reutrn to that for our troop. But that's still not enough practice, eh? Well, I don't expect them all to turn into Tom Brown. I think that this is an area where more one-on-one with an adult might prove fruitful. Hmmm... that gives me an idea...

Tom

hehehe - I hate building fires atop deep snow - THOSE trips always see me carrying a lot more stove fuel than others.

That's the best of all - with your own kids. Good for you and your son! Too bad there aren't more folks who do that - or other things - with their kids. I guess that's a big part of why I'm involved in scouts.

The whole thing eludes many (most). Certainly there are exceptions - those boys never forget, either - very rewarding; I can almost see the light go on thru their eyes when the get the whole thing right.

Maybe the scouts can practice at home. Many families have occasions where some food can be prepared with a little help from a fire. This could be an extra opportunity to practice. When you make a fire for the group those who still have trouble could do it under your supervision and if neccessary with a little help.

While we are on the topic of firestarting, does anyone have a source for ferrocerium rods? I am sure that I have read something about a source here before, but my mind is old and slow. I tried a search with no luck...

Hoods' Woods Mini Kit Sparkers (1/8 by 2 inch Ferrocerium rods, each in its own ziplock plastic bag - no magnesium block or striker included)

Go to
http://www.survival.com/products.htm

click on the Online Store and the on the left hand side, click on "Product List", go to the bottom of the page.

$3.50 each, or 5 for $15. (I bought 3 packs of 5, in a fit of exuberance; each one came in its own high quality mini-ziplock bag, which can obviously be re-used for other purposes.)

I once did an Drill Instructors course in the Air Training Corps where everyone was dropped to exactly the same level regardless of age, sex, rank, size and just given a number. This worked great. Everyone treated each other as an equal and fantastic progress was made. I don't know how this would work in a civilian situation, but it may help your adult to keep face and worry about failing or being better than everyone else.

Many thanks...

I got a set of those. They are very small diameter and no handle. They packed wonderfully! Unfortunately they were very hard for me to get any significant sparks on target, especially with gloves on. I realized that I needed something bigger that I was competent to use reliably. The boyscout hotspark is a larger diameter which gives a bit more spark and a handle that makes it easier for me to position and control, and at roughly half the price. I found this to be the minimum size I could actually reliably use. I have read that there are better quality ones available, but for me it was a size issue.

If size is a prime consideration, please practice with the actual mini item, whatever it is, and make sure that it is plenty big to actually do the job for you instead of just having a false sense of security. If you are not an arthritic clutz like me, you may be able to get away with more mini stuff, but either way, know for sure by practicing with the real stuff.

The part that I always see them falter on is preparation. They never seem to understand how much tinder and kindling they need. Yet they'll always manage to drag a huge trunk from a down tree half a mile for ther fire!

I like the competition idea, but beware of the "pile 'O leaves to burn the string" syndrome. Perhaps the rules need to be set so that the fire produces sustaining coals, which would even bring in proper fuel selection (hardwood vs. softwood) in to play.

This week I saw a Jambalaya contest on TV where the "young folk" competed in their own catagory using mini-dutch ovens, they appeared to be about 4" diameter. Perhaps the contest could involve baking a personal cobbler contest as well.

I got my own curiosity going when I mentioned the small DO. SO I did a search and I found only one. Camp Chef has introduced a 1 pint DO. I found it on Cee Dub's web site and it's called the Baby Dutch - Lewis and Clark Commemorative . Thy're temporarily out of stock for a few more weeks becasue of unexpected demand (good sign).

Hello,-I'm a Relative Newcomer to this Site and Forum. And certainly this Thread. I Have Many Years of Firebuilding Experience Behind me, and a "Sense of It All". Even if I'm Not yet Up on All of your Methods and Gadgets / Means,-I am Well Experienced and "Firesensed".

I Know One's Gotta "Guttily Go Along"!,-with the Moment to Moment, Conditions of a Firestarting Situation!,-One Can't just Merely and Doobily Go Thru the Obligatory Motions! -To Do That is a Real Hit or Miss Affair,-and It's of course Most Typically Often,-a Miss! -No Dang Wonder!,-that Such Firestarters often Don't Get It! -It of course Shud Not be a Matter of "Dah!,-I Guess I've Got to Put Another Stick on Now!" -But All Too Often,-I'm Afraid some Novice Firestarters are Under such Illusions and Spirit! At Least back in my Scouting Days and Troop,-a Good Enuf of my Fellow Scouts,-were More or Less Like That!

- Point I'm Driving At,-is that you've Got to Have the Materials, Means, Equipment,(If Only a Match!), and Techniques / Methods,-All Right,- -But you've Also Got to Have the Spirit and Sense of It All!,-the Leadership Guiding Over It and the Wanting To!

But the Firecraft Lackings Common among Many Scouts,-that I've been Much Reading of here Lately,-Has Begun to Become a Little Too Much!, for me. I Have to Make a Constructive Comment and Contribution.

And This concerns,-the Sizeable Prevelence,-for Whatever Reason,-of Sorry Firecraft and Firesense,-Among Many a Scout! I again was a Boy Scout once myself,-and I Know Well How at Least in my Troop,-a Lot of Fellow Scouts were Pretty Much just Obligatorily Going Thru the Motions!,-Heart and Spirit Not Really in It!,-Frankly Often just Goofing Around! So Much of Successful Firebuilding is WANTING to Build a Fire!,- Sure the Proper Materials, and their Relative Combinations, Timing, and Placement, -are So Much of It as Well. But Somebody's Gotta WANT To! -As Well as Have the Overall Sense, Knack, and Spirit of It All!

With Many of Them Not Really Wanting To!,-Thats One Major Reason a Lot of Scouts Don't Get Fire Prep, Starting, Control, or Maintenance!,-Down Pat.

Now Other Scouts are,-Really and Intently Enuf Trying to Get It.,-But Still Somehow are Off some of the Firestarting Wavelength. At Least They Do Want To,-and Are Trying To.

Here as Elsewhere,-It Comes Down to Leadership, Knowledge and Firesense, and a Sense of Working with Youth or Boys.

Someone of course Doesn't just Set Down Sticks in Any Old Timing or Way!, - Now when One Does Operate So!,-Just Doobing Steps and Sticks Down Any Old Way, -No Dang Wonder some Don;t Get It!,-and some Pretty Sorry Firestarting Efforts be Present!

It's a Sense and an Art,-Not Only a Pure Skill or "Science"! Once One Has Got That!,-as Well as the Requisite Amount of Correct Materials in the Right Placement and Combination,-One Quickly Finds that Firecraft is Certainly Not Brain Surgery,-Nor Nuclear or Rocket Science!,-( the Work and Attention that Can Go Into Making a Successful Fire,-Notwithstanding.)

It Comes Down to the Knowledge and Firesense Base of the Scoutmaster or Others in Charge,-as Well as of Course the Leadership, and Sense of Working with Boys. -All of Which I'm Sure you All Well Have.

Some Scouts could Care Less,-Others Care!,-but are Too Off!,-of a Truly Outdoorsy Spirit and Wavelength. You've Ventured what you Feel to be Likely Reasons for Such,-in Other Posts on this Thread. -Too Much "Citified" 21st Centurying,-is Quite Likely Going On! Even with All the Best Knowledge, Knack, Experience, Materials / Methods / and Means, Leadership, Firesense, and Other such Things as I may have Mentioned,-on the Supervisor / Instructor's Part,-You've Got something of a "Hill to Climb"!,-if you've Got to Work with either Disinterested, or Somewhat "Too Citified and 21st Centuried Up"!,-of Pupils.

And It's the Going Cultural Wave and All!,-They're Not Exactly Gonna Buck Up Against It! -Knowingly or Unknowingly. -If It Comes Down to an Awkward Conflict between their Scout Troop and It's Scoutcraft!,-on the One Hand,-and the Waves of Their Predominant Peer Society Out There!, on the Other, -Guess Which One some of Them are Going to Much More Likely Choose?!

Still I'm Quite Sure you've Got some Quite Exemplary Scouts!,-I Don't Mean to Suggest that All Scouts are "Too Citified, 21st Centuried Up, Non Outdoorsy, Disinterested, Sad and Sorry Firestarters"! I Remember some Great and Exemplary Ones!,Back from my Own Scout Days and Troop!

Keep Plugging Along!,-and Doing your Best by All the Boys in your Troops,-as I'm Sure you Well Already Do! As Always,-You'll Have Boys Who Readily Get It!,-and Others Who can Be Brought Upwards Toward Getting It!

Scouting and Scoutcraft was Born in Times Before Many of Us Had It "Creature Comfort Good"! Thats Why Many Scouts Naturally Fell in Synch and Line,-Back in Days of Old! And Thats Why some are Somehow Off It,-Nowadays!

I Don't Know How you Exactly Get Past That!,-It's a "Hill to Climb"! All I can Advise!,-is Don't Lose Heart Too Much!,-Things Oftentimes in Life Aren't as Bad as They Seem and Look!,-Keep Plugging Away!,-As Long as There's even One Boy Receptive to you There, or Elsewhere So!,-He Needs You!,-and You Eminently Have a Place!

In Short, Fire Sense and Craft Comes Down to Something More than Actual Means, Materials, and Methods, of Starting a Fire,-Vitally Important as All Such Are! It Also Comes Down to a Certain "Gut Sense" of What It is All About!, -and of a Really Wanting To!

This has Not been so much a Firestarting Nuts and Bolts Post,-as It's been a "Larger Sense of What It's All About!",-of a One.And I Apologize for any Repititions which may have Occurred here,-in my Drafting and Editing Process. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]billvann[/email]

I remember back in the scouts, when I was a Jr leader, telling the new guys to "go get wood". 1/2 hour later, I'd find them playing grab a** and I'd ask, "where is the wood" - I'd almost always get one of 2 answers - I could not find any, or "there" with a finger point to a tiny pile of sticks. I would then lead them into the woods, and start gathering kindling and tinder. They always wanted to know why I wanted so much wood. I always told them that it takes more wood than you think

Tom-
I feel your pain. I run the Wilderness Survival Merit Badge, as well as teach Venture crews on the subject, etc. Some of these kids are sooo out of touch with the wilderness that they have no idea about how to go about starting a fire. I've witnessed the "group fire building" someone always takes over and wastes all the matches because they don't know how to use matches! Can you imagine teaching bow-drill methods (fire by friction) to these kids?
The problem is that they don't PRACTICE!!! They don't practice knots, lashings, fire building, shelter building, etc. They might have to build a survival kit, but they don't maintain it. I'm 18 years old, I got my Eagle award last year. I practice these skills all the time, in all kinds of conditions, and I'm still not perfect. These kids aren't really encouraged to practice because the BSA is so rabid with the Leave No Trace principle. There is a way to practice without destroying the wilderness. I could go on for hours, but that's my opinion I could be wrong. I'll sum it up like this: "There is no graduation day in the school of the woods".--Horace Kephart

I just bought Tom Brown's "Nature and Survival for Children". One thing he suggests is that, to teach young kids the bow drill, you start by giving them the bow, spindle, fireboard and handhold pre-made. If you get them to make their own, they'll get frustrated and give up; if they have a set that works, they're much more likely to succeed. Only after they are proficient with starting fires in this way should they go on to constructing their own set of tools.

This may sound obvious to most of you, but it was a revelation to me. All the books I've ever read on the subject start with a detailed description of how to make the components, and only then described how the tools were used. So I guess I unconsciously assumed that was the way it had to be taught. Brown's method (which was the way his Grandfather taught him) makes so much more sense.

When I was a Boy Scout I guess it was a little different. This was only about 15 years ago. I really think that children are coddled to much anymore. I won’t rant about specifics. Let me tell you how I learned many skills while on scouting trips. Get the boys into the woods. Gather them around. Collect all of there tent pegs and fire starting material. Matches, lighters, flint and steal etc. Then give each boy five matches and something to strike them on.

Inform them that each of them will need to start there own individual fire or he will be one of the unlucky ones eating cold beans and franks that night. Suggest that they look for some good tent pegs while they are collecting tender and wood for the fire.

You may look like the bad guy to begin with but the kids that get it right will have a new sense of pride and accomplishment. The kids that didn’t get it will be eating cold beans but give them another chance the next day with 5 more matches. I know I didn’t miss the second time.

Cameron
Chicago IL

Well, your post finally embarrassed me into going out and testing my own fire-making skills.

About a year and a half ago, I bought a big bag of firewood (split pine logs) but have never had a place I felt I could build a fire. (I live in an apartment style condo with no fireplace.) Last weekend, I decided that even if I couldn't build a fire I could practice splitting wood without an axe.

I own a half dozen Eriksson knives (the 3.5" ones with the red synthetic handles) so I took one to see if I could "baton" (I think I'm using the term correctly) one of the logs. It was fairly easy to slice off a thin piece of wood from the edge of the log, then use that as a wedge to split progressively larger pieces. I ended up with the log split into two pieces about the size of my forearem, a couple of smaller pieces, a bunch of kindling sized pieces, and some smaller fragments - I was really surprised by how easy it was. (In fact, I intend to demonstrate this and then have the cadets practice it - under close INDIVIDUAL supervision - when we go snow-shoeing at the end of February.)

Anyway, I stuffed all the pieces (including the smallest fragments) in a plastic bag and put them, and the knife, in the trunk of my car.

I also have a couple of biscuit tins left over from Christmas. I took the smaller one and used my SAK to punch holes all around the bottom, then I put it inside the larger tin and threw that in my car as well. I figure I could use the smaller tin as a small, portable firepit, and the larger one is a convenient way to store it afterward (as well as make sure the fire is out).

Well, today I drove up to the Rona hardware store in the Northwest of the city (I'm building a sled for the snowshoeing trip and I needed some PVC tubing and some eye-bolts). On my way back, I passed by Bowness park, and I remembered, from the last time I was there, that they had small firepits. Well, okay - I've been putting it off long enough - could I really make a sustainable fire on my own? Time to face reality....

It didn't seem very cold or windy when I got there, but I checked the aviation weather on the Internet when I got home later and aqt the airport, it was minus 18 Celsius (= 0 Fahrenheit) and the wind was 17 knots out of the North.

First problem - no matches or lighter. However, I do have a 7-NH mag/flint rod that I keep in the glove compartment, so I grabbed that. I also had a newspaper (yeah, I know that's cheating, so sue me <img src="images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) so I grabbed that as well.

I was more or less dressed for the weather, except that for some stupid reason I had no gloves. But I wasn't going to be far from the car, so no problem, thinks I.

The "fire-pits" are actually small barbequeues and there was about 2 inches of snow in the bottom of each of them, so first order of business was to scrape all the snow (and the underlying ashes) out on to the ground; I used one of the medium sized pieces of wood for this.

Then I crumpled up several pages of newspaper and put them in the bottom of the barbie-pit. They didn't stay crumpled up and expanded somewhat. Next I tried building the smaller pieces of kindling into a tipi shape, just like it says in all the books (and shows on Ranger Rick's site <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). This is surprisingly difficult with no gloves at 18 below (Celsius). <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Next order of business was to try to get an actual flame. I knew I'd never be able to ignite the newspaper with just the ferrocerium rod, so I had to scrape off some magnesium flakes.

It's true what they say about those flakes - with a 17 knot wind out of the North, they blew away as fast as I could scrape them. This was where the biscuit tin came in handy; I was able to scrape a good-sized pile of flakes in the bottom of the tin. Next time, though, I'll line the tin with newspaper so they're easier to collect afterward.

Finally, show time. I shook the pile of magnesium shavings onto a piece of newspaper in the bottom of the firepit; meanwhile, the rest of the newspaper started blowing away.

Lesson #2 - if you're fortunate enough to have a newspaper, put something heavy on top of it so you don't lose it.

Anyway, the FeCe rod ignited the magnesium and within a second, the newspaper was blazing away. My tipi of wood sticks was kinda lying flat beside it, but I propped them up against the side of the firepit (lesson #3?) and soon got them burning away quite nicely.

Once I had all the smaller pieces burning, I had to figure out what to do with the three biggest pieces. I tried just placing them on top, but that squashed the tiny fire and nearly extinguished it; I took the big pieces out, was able to reconstruct the tipi without burning myself, and then did my best to prop the two largest pieces up directly over top of it. Eventually I did get all three of the largest pieces burning, though it was a struggle to keep them burning, I found, and eventually the fire did go out.

The fire didn't give off a lot of heat, I found, (it was really a very small fire) but I was able to warm my hands by holding them in the firepit.

After the fire went out, I threw the three largest pieces in the snow to make sure they were out, and used the lid of the biscuit tin to dump snow on the ashes in the firepit. Then I assembled everything back together, put the three pieces of firewood back in the plastic bag, and headed back to the car.

As an aside, I was somewhat shocked by how cold my hands got on the walk back. Even though it couldn't have been more than a couple of hundred yards, I had to keep blowing on them. I was even starting to worry that they might be too numb to unlock the car door; then I found myself wondering what I would do if the car didn't start. (Of course, it would probably have been a non-issue if I'd had gloves - or even if I'd had the sense to drop what I was carrying and stuff my hands in my pockets <img src="images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

One thing I think I will add to my survival kit is one of those disposable aluminium lasagna dishes - I think this could fold up quite flat, but I could use it to collect the magnesium flakes and prevent them blowing away. Of course, maybe a large paper or plastic bag (large enough to get both hands into) would do the trick just as well. Or I could try folding the newspaper into one of the "Napoleon" hats that I used to wear when I was a kid.

Anyway, I think it's obvious that I need a lot more practice, and I think I found a place where I can do it to my heart's content. (As long as I don't forget my gloves next time <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Another Thought since Having Occurred to me. -And That's to Have Them in a "HAVE TO Build a Fire of a Situation"!, -If you Could Actually Do It. I'm Reminded of a Post I've recently Read, -concerning First Aid Training and It's Like. It Speaks of a Simulated, -"The Guy's Gonna Die!,-in a Few!,-If you Don't Get to Doing Something Quick!", -Kind of Training.( That is NOT Any sort of Quote!, -I just Use It to Illustrate the Concept.)

-Take a Rather Coldish Day if you Can. -Then Have Them Gather Wood and Build Fires. ( I Assume All "Classroom" Type Pre-Teaching's Already been Done.) -It'd be a Case of,- -"No Fire!,-No Warmth!" I Think Many a Scout's Gonna Learn to Gather Up various Sized Sticks, -as Dry as All Possible, -apply Their Firestarting Source, -Shield It from the Breeze or Wind, -Feed More Wood on,-in something of a Proper Way, -And Get a Genuine Fire Going!, -For that Warmth that They Want and are Going to HAVE TO Have!

-Thats a Best Way of Getting Them Motivated and Teaching Them! -Again,-Only to the Extent that you Can Actually, Legally, Etc Do That. It's the Same Motive as in that First Aid Example again!

-They're Creature Comfort Kids in Creature Comfort Times!, -as I've said in my Last Post here. Scouting was Born in PRE-Creature Comfort Times!, -once again, -When Scouts both HAD TO !,-and Only Naturally Wanted To!,-as Well. It Again Comes Down To, -That Someone's Gotta Naturally WANT To!


As to This Kind of Pathetic NON Firesense as you Guys Speak Of!, -So Prevalent Among Many of Them Nowadays, -THIS !, -I would Say, -IS Probably the Only WAY TO Break It! -A "Fire or Freeze"!, -Sort of Exercise.

If you Want To Hopefully Get Past It!, -Maybe you Shud Really Consider Trying This!, -to the Extent that you Can. [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

Cameron also Says This Very Well in His Post! He Got in a Little Ahead of me, -and I Echo Him on That! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]

The newspaper can be ignited with just the ferrocerium rod. The trick is to tear small strips from the sheet. The strips should be 1/4" wide and stay on the sheet. The tearing exposes fibres which can catch the sparks and ignite. It may take some practice but it works.

The ferrocerium rod alone can be used differently, as well- more like the magnesium. You can use a sharp(ish) edge, with real pressure, in a shaving motion to shave some of the rod (slowly, as you don't want sparks at this stage) into a light coating, or a tiny pile, of black dust on the tinder. Flip the edge 90 degrees and create a shower of sparks, and the sparks will ignite the dust, which burns for seconds and will start tinder that the sparks alone wouldn't.

The technique should be used sparingly, as it uses up the rod much faster than just "sparking", but at that point this may be the least of your concerns.

Congratulations on having the nerve to take those first few steps away from the protected life. Most people never do.

I remember well how limiting apartment style life can be, how frustrating it was to run across seemingly simple instructions like "with a piece of scrap wood...". Yeah, right. Like I keep that around a place that doesn't even have room for my clothes.

Please do be aware that dry pine is about the easiest wood you're likely to run across to split this way, and may not be all that common where you find yourself in the wilderness. With different kinds of wood, or green wood, it can be much more challenging. Having seen three sledgehammered steel splitting wedges disappear into modest-sized a tulip poplar log without noticeable effect, I can testify to that. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to both you and Max for your responses. Yes, I figured that dry pine would probably be a lot easier to split than most woods. Otoh, dead pine is not exactly scarce in the woods around these parts <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> so if push came to shove, I'd probably hope to start a fire with pine wood and then use the other woods to feed the fire. I may buy some different species of logs later, once I feel a bit more proficient. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And now that I have an outdoor location where I can go to indulge my pyromania on weekends, I will make a genuine effort to get out and practice a lot more.

I'd rather not end up like the CAP survival instructor who was written up elsewhere on this site, who died of hypothermia because he left his survival kit in the trunk of his car to go flying <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It's bad enough ending up dead; I don't want to end up looking stoopid on top of it <img src="images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

"if push came to shove, I'd probably hope to start a fire with pine wood and then use the other woods to feed the fire."

Good plan. I was going to mention something on those lines, but you seem to have it all well in hand.

If I might make a modest suggestion for the voyage of discovery you've embarked on... make it a point, at some time in the future when conditions are right, the forecast is good, and you're comfortable with the idea, to spend a night or two outside... not just outside of buildings, but outside of tents. It can be a remarkable, liberating experience to watch the moon and stars with nothing between you and the sky, to listen to the night sounds of the forest, to wake up see the sun come up.

I'm not belittling the importance of tents or shelter, but as many times as they are necessary, there are still many times they are just a psychological crutch for those still fundamentally afraid of the outside at some deep level- as is huddling around a fire and making yourself night-blind, drowning out the sights, sounds and smells of the woods with those of the fire.

If you're at all doubtful about the weather, set up the tent as a retreat by all means.. but try it outside. You'll find you've taken a simple step that seems never to have occured to many self-proclaimed "outdoorsmen"... and if you become comfortable with the woods at night, you'll be that much more comfortable during the day.

Good idea - I like that. A little cold to do it right now, but in the spring I may just do that. Heck, I could probably just sleep out on the barbeque deck <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did once sleep outdoors without a tent, long long ago when I was about 10. My only memories of it are being shaken awake in the middle of a pouring rainstorm and spending the next hour or so under a bridge, until a game warden (who lived nearby) came out to investigate (and then invited us back to his place to warm up). But - I guess it was the same trip, but a different night - I remember lying on the ground watching shooting stars and fireflies, and trying to figure out which was which.

I haven't thought about that trip in years. Funny, how stuff comes back to you. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Heck, the suggestion was probably motivated as much by my own nostalgia as anything.

In my early teens, I lived on a tiny lake in southern New England, and we used to sleep out on a small floating dock on some summer nights, ostensibly to fish for bass just as the sun came up. We did that, all right, but I don't think that was the real reason for sleeping out.

In my late teens, I was in a different area, but again southern New England. By then I was a dedicated backpacker, but I couldn't afford to get out on the trail nearly as much as I wanted to, so I'd go for quick hikes several times a week in an area of forested ridges and lakes. I got to know the trails so well I could tell when a single other person had been down them since the last time I had, and in times in the spring and fall when it wasn't too cold but the bugs weren't bad, I'd go out alone and sleep in the woods just for enjoyment.

There was one particular spot I went every time, in deep, dark, quiet woods where the trail paralleled a gurgling brook. Becuase there wasn't much sunlight under the canopy, there was little underbrush to deal with, and it was just beyond where a field of wild lady slippers (American orchids) bloomed every year. I'd go out there and spread a tarp for a groundcloth in the ferns, read a book in the late afternoon light with my back to a pack leaning on a tree, and I'd sleep that night with just the tarp, a light down sleeping bag and a foam pad.

Just sitting there and reading, I found if I stayed still and quiet enough, for long enough, the woods would slowly come alive around me. It was there that I saw bright-colored woods ducks for the first time, swimming on that little creek in the fall. Once a raccoon passed within 10 feet of me while I was reading, seemingly unconcerned. Very near there that I had once seen a Great Blue Heron, and there was a small golden-colored fox who lived somewhere nearby. I spotted him a few times, but one time in particular he didn't see or hear me, and when I saw him he was playing in a sunbeam that cut down through the darkness of the woods, alternately chasing his tail and the bugs that became visible when they flew through the light.

I always had contingency plans in the back of my mind- it was something between two and three miles away from the house (by the trails, probably much less "as the crow flies") which wasn't too far to walk if the weather turned really bad, but I also knew where there was a rock overhang that formed a small shallow cave in a ridge only a quarter of mile away. It was cramped there- I couldn't stretch out or stand- but it stayed pretty dry even in the worst rain. I had sheltered there before on day hikes, when I'd get caught by a thunderstorm.

I never had to bail out on an overnight there, though- I didn't do that many overnights, but I never had to deal with more than a moderate, gentle rain in the times I did, and for that I just pulled the tarp over the sleeping bag and myself.

After I wrote that earlier message I was trying to remember how long it has been since I slept outside without a tent. I know it's been far too long. It seems like I think about these things in the deep of winter when they're not feasible, and then when spring comes I'm always too busy with trivial things I won't remember one year later, much less in decades. I hope I'll get out more this year.

Hello There Presumed. I Really Like and Identify with the Topic and Spirit of your Post here!

In my Many Woods Jaunts, -here in Southwestern Pa, -It's Within only Minutes at Most of "Sitting / Staying Still", -My Woods Too Comes Alive! Consistently Evry Time!, -"Naturally and Of Course"! It's a Part of "Nature and Outdoors 101!

The Bugs Crawling and Flying About!,-(There's Always an Interesting One!,-Along with Their Oftentimes Interesting, Unique, Behaivior! ),-The Birds with Their Calls and Chirps in the Tree Branches High Above!,-Even in Brite, Sunny, Mid-Summer Afternoon! And Many Such Things Else!

Deer (Eastern Whitetail) are Commonplace Too! They even Go Right Up to our City of Pttsbg.,-and are Even in Many of It's Wooded Locations! (We are a City of Hills) Oftentimes as Common as "Chipmunks and Rabbits"! (And Thats in Many Senses No Exaggeration!,-as Far as Sightings, "Commonality" & Etc. Goes,-If Not in Actual Comparative Numbers)

Several Summers Ago,-I Spent Much of a Summer Clearing Much Tangled Underbrush Out of a 35 or so Acre Wood,-Just for the Love and Fun of It! You Get into that Peaceful Rhythym and All!, -and Many Many Times!, -I'd Look Up or Over to See, -One to Several Such Whitetails, -Just Peacefully Browsing or Grazing! Sometimes Looking at me, Many Times Not. Only Several Car Lengths Away!,-Sometimes even Somewhat Closer! They Knew I was There! I I Know They Knew. They Knew that I was a "Fellow Part of Their Woods World",-and Unlike their View of my Fellow Humans in General, -They Knew I Wasn't Out to Harm Them in any Way! Common Understandings Arise in the Woods, Forest, and Outdoors,-Like That!

I Stumbled Upon a Really Large Nest of Turkey Eggs in the Ground Level Weeds!,-One Summer Afternoon. You So See some of our Box Turtles Evry Now and Then! Plus of Course Other Things Else!

-Yes,-There are Certainly Many such Other Things Else About It!, -Which just Don't Come Immeadiately to Mind Right Now, -as I Sit Down to Type,-Mindful of some Sleep that I've Soon Gotta Start Tending To!

You Well Capture the "Spirit of the Woods and Outdoors"!, -So Much of What we are All About! Lets Never Forget This!,-as we Also Continue to Attend To our Various and Vital Survival and Emer Prep Etc,-Nuts and Bolts. We Can certainly Swing "Sleeps Under the Stars"!,-on Any of Many Warm, Summer, Nights! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Presumed Lost[/email]

ScottRezaLogan,

Thank you for the kind words. You have a very distinctive manner of writing.

The area you talk about, around Pittsburgh, is one I'm very fond of. Not only has it preserved a remarkable amount of woodlands, but it preserves a remarkable history as well. It's amazing to me how few Americans are aware that the course of North America, and the entire western world, pivoted around events in that area in the 1750's, and how much of our subsequent history was decided by events then. Pittsburgh is also to be applauded for it's increasingly-evident recovery from the ravages of the late 20th Century.

I'm particularly fond of the little town of Lignonier, not far away. I have been there many times.

PL

Thanks for your Kind and Complimentary Words Too!

Our Great Hills and Woods!,-(Though Nothing like Yosemite or Yellowstone!), -We Have in Abundance, -and It's one of my Most Liked and Loved Things about this Area! We Have Pretty Much a "Half Fields-Half Woods" Mix, -once you Get Beyond our Suburbs. I Grew Up in that Countryside South of our City!, -Though I Be in the City Itself now, -"You Can Take the Boy Out of the Country, -but You Can't Take the Country Out of the Boy!" Fortunately in this Area, -I Don't have All that Far to Go!,-to Get Back Down There!

Your First Run-In with the Appalachians,-at Chestnut and Laurel Ridges,-is some 50 miles Southeast. Your Ligonier is of Course a Part of This Area. We're Also Arnold Palmer Country!,-Both a Man and a Golfer that I Much Like, Respect, and Admire! (And I'm only Half into Golf myself!) Taking in the Westward View from Laurel Caverns (our Nearest Cave), -is Essentially the View Iv'e had the 2 or 3 Times that I've been Up on a Demo Flight! From Laurel,-It is that 50 Mile View Northwest,-to my City and Area.

( Pardon some of my Choppiness and Chogginess if you Can. -I'm Working on This, -and Have been Getting Much Better on This Lately! And It Gets a Lot Better After the Following Parenthetical Section on Stone Mountain! )

(But Don't Expect to See our Skyscrapers Off in the Distance, -Like you can from Atlanta's Much Closer Stone Mountain! -16 Miles,-I Think. BTW,-I've Climbed Stone Mountain!,-Though by the Rather Easy "Tourist Route" And a Real Caution thats Occurred to me while Doing So!, -It's Being Nothing but the Smooth, Rounded Granite Monolith that It is!,-Absolutely No Soil at All!,-to Speak of,- -I Thot of what it would be Like!,-to be Caught in a Really Good Downpour Anywhere on It! -Or even in Not so Good a Rainfall. The Water has Absolutely Nowhere to Go!,-but to Run and Cascade Down the Side of That!,-It CAN'T Go into the Mountainous Ground the Least Bit at All!, -I Knew by the Quite Smooth, Polished Granite Surface that I was Walking On! -That It'd Be Utterly Slippery as All Heck!. Shud One be Caught Up There in a Rain or Downpour! -No Footing at All! One could Only Hope to be on one of the Not That Many,-More Level Approaching Stretches,-of the Trail. I'm Sure this Figures Into Precisely Why it is Smooth!,-All of the Millions of Years of Rains and Downpours which Have Occurred on It! But Everyone Please be Forewarned and Prepared!, -Shud you ever be Caught on Stone Mtn or any Other Rock.-Like That! OK now, -Back to Talking About my Own Area! )

Wild, Wonderful West Virginia!, -is Right Below! We are Only 3 Counties Above the Mason Dixon Line,-and All that is Good and Great About the American Southland!

Fort Neccessity,-Where George Washinton and His Group Camped Out During French and Indian War Times,-is There Too,-Right Near the Point where PA, Maryland, and West Virginia Meet. I Camped there once as a 12 year old Boy Scout!,-During an Allegheny Trails Council Camporee,-in 1970. I Learned the Hard Way,-to Prepare for Rain!,-on that Campout! When after a Few Days,-the Sky Finally Cleared and Blued!,-and There was that Beautiful, Patchy, Mackeral Cloud Sky!,-a Cheer Spontaneously Went Up!,-at our "Troop Spot"! -Obviously,-I Too Joined In! April 1970, -Right when Another Special Event in my Life was Going On,-Apollo 13. I Only Went on One Other Scout Campout,-During my Relatively Brief Time in Scouting. -An Also Very Special and Memorable Patrol Campout Not Far from Home,-( Washington County at the Time),-a few Months Later,-in Early June '70. At Neccessity,-We Walked Right Thru the Fort and Surrounding Grounds.

As you say, -There is Much Watershed History in This Area. -A Lot of French and British Rivalry for Influence, -The Strategic Westward Value of our Three Rivers or "Forks",-We are Called the "Gateway to the West"! ( St. Louis with It's Great Gateway Arch,-I Beleive Made Here,-is Also such a Western Gateway), -The Whiskey Rebellion, -and of Course the French and Indian War. This Area was a Heart of All These! PBS by the way,-I Hear is Soon Doing a Really Quality Documentary Series on this F & I War! It Sounds to me like you're the Kind of Person who'd certainly Like to Catch It!

And we of course for Decades Now!, -Are No Longer the Smoky City!

Thanks for your Kind, Sincere, and Complimentary Words on my City and Area!,

-But Along with my Own Sincere Compliments and All concerning my Area, -I'm Gonna Also Offer some Due Constructive Criticism Regarding It! There is Much that I Basically to Much Like or Love About this Area, -our Many Little, Winding, Blue Collar Roads and Houses, -Snaking Up our Wooded and Semi-Wooded Hills,-is Yet Another! But There's also a Good Number of Things, -That I'm Personally Less Than Pleased About!

Despite our Once in a Blue Moon Spurts of "Renaissance", -We are Quite a Non-Progressive City! Too Many just Want to Smoke their Smokes and Drink their Beer!, -and Don't Care Much for Such Things! As an outside Consultant once said, -We're the Champion of Studies! We even Do Studies on Studies!

What we Really Need!,-Instead of Unneccessary New Stadiums,-is Infrastructure Like More and Better Highways, Parking Garages, and the Like!

We also, -for Example, -Have a Lot of Litter and Trash Strewn About! They've got People Regularly Picking it up, -from Downtown Sidewalks, -but Between their Appearances, -You'd Never Know It! I'm Embarrassed for my City and Area,-in This Respect. We Long Ago Cleared Up our Legendary Smoky Skies!, -but Havn't Yet Gotten Anywhere Near a Full Handle on our Sidewalk Trash! ( I know this is Unheard Of!,-in Places like Toronto and Various European Cities. And I KNOW It's a No Go!, -in Trusbx's Singapore! )

Sorry.-my Town, -But I'll Call Both our Good and Bad Points as I See Them, -and for Exactly What They Are! ( Pick Up,-if you Don't Want me Talking on It! )

On the Plus Side again,-We Quite Well Followed Steel with Technology, and are World Class First Rate!,-When It comes to Medical Facilities and Research. We also are a Great Cultural and University Center, -and Have One of the World's Largest, Most Top Notch, -of International Airports!

I Know that my Areas of Honest Constructive Criticism, -Can Seem or Be At Odds, -With your Sincere, Well Meant Compliments, -of Which we in the Area Also Have!. I've Had to Say such Words on this Town and Area of Mine, as Well. -For I Personally Have Mixed Feeling about my Area, -Not All Good or Well Reflecting, -but Certainly Not All Badly Reflecting either!

Thanks Again for Your Words and Compliments on my Town and Area, -Both Outdoorswise, -and "Townwise"! [color:"black"] [/color] [email]Presumed Lost[/email]

There are a few places on this thread where I could have posted a reply, but I decided to stick it hear as it's an extension of the "Leave No Trace" mentality.

First of all, I echo your sentiments. "back when I was a scout," we did not have propane stove as is the standard today. The rational makes sense but we lose the opportunity for practice. Aside from the instructiona and testing for a specific requirement, scouts today only build one fire per weekend on Saturday night. We used to cook on fire and charcol grills (no lighter fluid) every meal. Practice makes perfect. Hey, Tom. Perhaps a weekend of all wood fire camping as a theme is in order. Bring the firewood with to observe the low impact camping philosophy. Depending upon the number of scouts in each patrol, nearly everyone should have an opportunity to serve as fire marshal at a meal. Wouldn't they be surprised how much more effort it takes to make sure you have sufficient fuels for the entire meal. How about including a dutch oven cobbler? <img src="images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Secondly, things a far more regimented today. My Webelos den met in the same church as the Boy Scout troop. We didn't have elaborate cross-over ceremonies. The night I finished my Arrow of Light Award, my den leader walked me over to the troop and I joined that night. In fact, a patrol had planned a 5-mile day hike the next day. The patrol leader gave me a list of food and equipment to bring. For lunch, he taught me how to build a fire (I use the same lean-to technique today) and I started it with only one match as I had enought tinder and kindling on hand. I then cooked my first meal over the fire. So one my first day as a scout I passed three requirements towards Tenderfoot (we had no "Scout" rank back then).

Third, and lastly, I too vividly recall the era in scouting in the mid-seventies when BSA purposefully urbaninzed the program in an effort to increase membership. It was technically feasible for a scout to advance all the way up through Eagle without ever having to learn how to light a fire. Of course that would never happen as the volunteer leaders in the field would still insist upon the skills being taught. And some years later the powers at national recognized their folly when enrollment actually plummetted. So now the rallying cry is to "Put the OUT into scOUTing." Of course they never should have taken it out in the first place. But I'm not sure we've fully put it back either.

LNT is a grand goal and I strive for that - a lot more to be written about that, but not here and now.

Our District had its Klondike Derby over the weekend and as usual, I was running a station so I did not get to observe everything. However, there were two opportunities for patrols to demonstrate fire starting skills: The first patrol to arrive at each station was required to start the warming fire for the station and there was an event whose essence was to boil water.

When I was asked to run a station last week, I asked about the scoring on the fire building. I was told 10 points for one match, 9 for 2 matches, etc. I asked about other means of fire starting. Nope - just matches. Understand that I have personally successfully taught scouts from all of those troops how to use a ferrocerrium rod with char cloth and with cotton wool and I've been harping about basics to adult leaders for some time.

Despite the fact that there was no bonus for not using matches, the patrol that started the fire at my station asked if they could use a BSA sparklite instead of matches. I re-iterated "10 points for 1 match, 9 points for 2 matches,..." etc. Being clever lads, they laid a fire and with one swipe had flames that quickly had the main fuel (6" - 8" diameter logs) blazing. I gave them 10 points. (I recognized the scout as one I had taught a couple of years ago - not our troop). Afterwards I found out that 4/11 patrols had done the same thing - no matches. One or two of the other patrols took two matches, and the rest did it with one match.

Now, I felt pretty good about that. But (of course) - they were rather prepared for the event. Their pre-Klondike instructions emphasized that they would have to bring matches, tinder, and kindling sufficient to start a fire that would involve 6"-8" diameter logs as the fuel. All the patrols I saw had enough tinder and kindling to start many fires and most used all of it in the two events. Kindling was universally scraps of kiln-dried lumber split into kindling except for two patrols that used a hatchet on some indigenous firewood - one the night before and one at my station.

I'm not knocking their preparation for the events at all - but in reality, we don't lug around the equivalent of a 5 gallon bucket's worth of tinder and kindling in the woods. So while they all did great (to my happy surprise), it was artificial and did not benchmark much in the way of expedient real-world fire building skills.

Other times, other events where I had control, I have NOT allowed them to use any kindling or firewood prepared in advance - here we are, here are 3 matches, build a fire to accomplish _____. Extra matches cost points. Unused returned matches earn bonus points. Few scouts do well in those circumstances so far - some do VERY well and the others struggle - not much in the middle.

As for our troop - we're getting better. Most campouts use a DO for at least one meal and in this part of the country we never fail to at least have a campfire each night - our favorites are the night hikes. Silent and no artificial illumination, but at the 1/2 way point (chosen for suitability), I have them silently build a small fire and then we skewer bits of venison or elk, sit close around the small fire, and I quietly tell a true story/experience. Bits of toasted meat last as long as the story, fire dead out and taken care of, and we resume the hike. I believe that does more than anything else I've tried to teach them how to start a fire under "real" circumstances, but that does not give every scout enough opportunities to practice.

I've got to get back to work - hope to pick back up on this latter.

Regards,

Tom

I figured you'd jump in on this one! <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Our Klondike is this weekend. Most of the boys are sleeping overnight Friday. Tonight at our troop meeting, the SPL is having each of the patrols practice the firestarting since many of the boys have not done that yet under winter conditions. I haven't been as involved or focused with the troop as in the past because of my new job. But it'll be fun to see how they do. I'll bring my MFS and sparklite as well and see if I can work it in. In fact, perhaps I'll have my younger son, who happens to be with me tonight, start a fire with his SparkLite. That would get their attention! A Webelos starting a fire in winter without a match. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm All for Starting a New Thread on This,-and to Get it Out of Firestarting. "Deer and Foxes in the Woods" may be OK Enuf there, -but I'm Getting to Think that Stone Mountain is Not. And so I'm Gonna Start a New Thread on Stone Mountain Elsewhere. So if Anyone Else has had any Climbing Experiences and the Like on Stone!, -Please Find and Post such There! -Not here in "Fire". [color:"black"] [/color] [email]ScottRezaLogan[/email]