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#231518 - 09/06/11 03:50 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: Dagny]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Your route is generally the one I would want to follow. Have non electrical alternatives available - gas light, coolers, hand tools, solar panels, and just get off the grid.

It occurs to me that we all have a generator handy for small items, at least. It resides within our various motor vehicles and can handle the small stuff.

Generators seem to be an attractive item for theft. They are always getting swiped from RV's parked along our local beach


Edited by hikermor (09/06/11 03:52 PM)
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#231522 - 09/06/11 04:03 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: MartinFocazio]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1918
Loc: Washington, DC

Just found out my friends' generator is:


Generac Guardian Series 10KW

http://www.generac.com/Residential/Guardian/Products/Guardian_Series_10_kW/

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#231524 - 09/06/11 04:08 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: MartinFocazio]
rebwa Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 295
Good topic! I picked up my first generator in the mid 90’s after a rather severe and rare ice storm hitting and knocking out the power for 11 days. At the time I had 5 or 6 horses here (only a couple now) and water became an issue fairly fast as it was cold and outdoor troughs froze. I still have that gen as a back-up with a Honda as my primary.

If a major storm or Earthquake hit, I’d save my fuel for mainly the water pump, water heater and recharging as I have a wood stove for heat. I have acreage with a well ventilated shed a good distance from my house and barn that I store around 40 gallons but that wouldn’t go all that far either. I’d probably just use as much frozen and refrigerated food fast and then go to my pantry, especially if I thought I was in for a long-term outage. In a minor storm where power would be restored in a few days then I'd burn the gas on hand and try to save the food.

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#231527 - 09/06/11 04:18 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: Dagny]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
The propane was topped off the day before Irene hit. Six days later, the gauge showed 35% left. That ran the sump pump, fridge-freezer full-time, ceiling fans, lights (too many, in hindsight), just-in-time hot water heater, washer-dryer, laptop computers, flat-screen TV for one movie each night. Fortunately, the house is on the water and heavily shaded (none of those trees fell, thankfully) so it was comfortable without a/c.


The just-in-time hot water heater and the Washer-dryer is the problem.. Usually these are huge power sinks typically 7-12KW for the hot water heater and 2-3KW for the washer dryer. So I'm assuming a 20-30KW gen set installation. With such a large gen set just turning over it will consume the propane quite readily without any load.

A much smaller Gen set to cover just electronic and lighting base load will probably be just 300-500W

Energy efficient devices are the way to go;

LED lightbulb 3-10W - Typically a 3 bedroom house - 150W max

Freezer - 30W

Fridge - 15W

TV 80W (can be a huge difference in power draw if you turn down the backlight i.e. 80W for a 40 inch Flat Panel to 200W on full brightness.)

Hi-Fi - 20W

Computer desktop (PC) - 30W + Monitor - 25W

Modem/Router - 15W

Boiling water and cooking can be provided by the direct use of the propane within the propane tank itself. Converting propane gas to electricity is around 25-30% efficient using a generator at the rated maximum load for the generator. It doesn't make sense to then convert the electricity into hot water at 40-60% i.e. if using an electric hot plate cooker ring. The energy in the propane to heat hot water this way would then be about 10-15% efficient. Using a kettle with a heat exchanger base such as Simplex No4 kettle over a propane ring is 80% efficient i.e. will use 1/5 less propane fuel.

For washing clothes a mangle and a clothes line might prove to be useful. It also keeps the ladies a little fitter as well... wink


Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (09/06/11 04:26 PM)

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#231528 - 09/06/11 04:32 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: MartinFocazio]
LesSnyder Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 07/11/10
Posts: 1680
Loc: New Port Richey, Fla
since 04/05 I've acquired a small 5cu ft chest freezer, and a Honda 3500w portable...luckily haven't needed to try my plan yet...

which is to switch all the frozen foods from the refrigerator freezer to the chest freezer, and fill extra space with drinking water frozen in 1gal jugs...electronic remote thermometer to monitor interior temps... run generator to maintain temp and recharge car batteries (2) only (for sleeping ventilation and portable TV)...

add the perishable non frozen foods (cold cuts) to one Coleman Extreme with frozen gallon jugs (in 04 this kept 40F temps for 3+ days with occasional opening, IIRC) eat them first....frozen jugs in the other Coleman for cold drinks

agreement with neighbor to power their shallow water well if needed..

propane cooking and kerosene lamps... electric chain saw...good portable drill to install/remove plywood over windows

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#231531 - 09/06/11 04:50 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: MartinFocazio]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1918
Loc: Washington, DC

Interesting AFLM, thanks.

This was their first long-term generator experience since having it installed (and my first generator experience). They did not imagine that the power would be off so long. Or that additional propane deliveries would be impossible until the roads were clear of downed and sagging lines.

It was instructive (for them and me). And encouraging, insofar as any situation involving mild to modest temperatures might play out (didn't need a/c or heat).

1) Next time in a multi-day event, the propane consumption will me monitored more closely. The only imperative is that the septic/sump/well pumps be functioning.

Anything else, including the refrigerator-freezer, were matters of convenience. There are plenty of stores/restaurants nearby and this is a weekend place, we could have come back to our fully-powered DC homes at any time.

2) in the future the road situation won't be evaluated simply in terms of whether the Jeeps (they have two) can navigate but what it means for ingress-egress of emergency vehicles and support services such as propane delivery.

It was the deteriorating road situation (lines began sagging further) that finally caused my friends and their neighbors to lose patience with the power company and local government.

After local officials and media were alerted to the inability of emergency vehicles to access the neighborhood -- a week after Irene came through -- the power company responded swiftly and in sufficient numbers to make substantial progress.

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#231537 - 09/06/11 06:27 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: Dagny]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Looking at the specs for the 10KW Generac generator, I can see why it was burning the propane so readily.

@half load (5kW) - 4.73 litres per hr - 405 Kg per week.
@full load (10kW)- 7.31 litres per hr - 626 kg per week.

No load (just turning over) will probably be around 10-15% of full load fuel consumption rate so will consume around 60-90 kg per week. With 35% left after 5 days I would assume that the tank size was in the 150-200 kg range, i.e 300-400 litres in size. That is a lot of propane and would be very expensive to run. Running a heating (cold winter) or cooling system (hot summer) continuously (say 2kW continuous load) would mean that the emergency electrical system (tank+generator) would last around 75-100 hrs or about 3-4 days.

If you power a single 100W incandescent light bulb continuously with this setup using the 10KW Generac generator + full propane tank, the light bulb would burn for about 16-21 days.

If you power a 100W (light output) gas powered lantern it would burn 200kg of propane in around 140 days.

Efficiencies matter and Solar PV makes sense to power low powered highly efficient lighting (LEDs) and electronic devices.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (09/06/11 06:33 PM)

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#231538 - 09/06/11 06:41 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: adam2]
Matt26 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 309
Loc: Vermont
Another tip to keep your freezer cold with no power is to freeze jugs of water in advance. This way you still have the large thermal mass of several gallon milk jugs sized blocks of ice.
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#231549 - 09/06/11 08:33 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: MartinFocazio]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
I used to sell the big honking generators at HD. People figured they were the end-all solution to a power outage. They don't figure on the noise, which can be pretty loud and annoy the neighbors. They don't take into account fuel and it's cost. They don't take into account maintenance, turning it over once a month, doing some preventative every 3 months. And finally they don't realize that once the generator is placed on a cement pad, and wired into the house by a qualified electrician, it pretty much becomes part of the landscape and isn't moving soon. In fact, in many places, it does actually become part of the house/real estate and must specifically be exclused from any sales.

Had some people complain about the fact they couldn't run all their appliances once we explained the different loads that could be placed on the generator. They figure that the generator will run the entire house more or less indefinately on a load of fuel. People need to read the brochures and plan for the generator they are getting. It's not a small feat to keep one running right.

I lived off of generator power while in the Sinai desert. Two gennies, odd and even, ran 24 on, 24 off. With a squad of troops it was still a pain to keep them fueled, maintained and in good running order. And we had a more or less infinite fuel supply, albeit in 5 gal cans. I can't imagine trying to keep a large gennie fueled and maintained alone. Oh, the gennies were sandbagged in - imagine a 3 sided box - for noise reduction. That was fun to do too.

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#231552 - 09/06/11 09:14 PM Re: Generators Aren't Going To Solve Your Problems if. [Re: MartinFocazio]
nursemike Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 11/09/06
Posts: 870
Loc: wellington, fl
I solved the fuel problem in my IL days by having a generac natural gas fired 10KW beast installed with automated switching. Had old folks on board who could not tolerate loss of central heat. Now I am less affluent, more mobile, and living im Palm Beach, so i acquired a portable 5KW gasoline machine. Gasoline storage is dangerous and tedious in the amounts necessary for a prolonged outage. I think I will store a modest amount, with a layered defensive plan involving ice chests and camp stoves, charcoal grill and canned food. I worked daily for three years with 5 high-cost propane Onan RV generators, and concluded that propane-fired generators were very clean and convenient to service during their frequent, complex breakdowns.
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