OK, ETS'ers, this thread is going off the rails. This is about snakebites - let's keep it that way.

Don't make me get out my moderator stick...

It is correct that there is little positive evidence of the Extractor's effaciacy. However, in the three of the studies I've read that that claim to disprove effaciacy, all of them waited 3 minutes and then applied the device for 30 minutes. They drew the conclusion that the device was simply not effective and also caused additional tissue damage.

As an engineer, if I were performing the same study, I would have made more narrow conclusions:
The device was not effective after a three minute wait; do not use it if three minutes has elapsed.
A 30 minute application causes tissue damage. It is not known if a shorter application time would reduce damage.
There is no point in keeping the device applied once three minutes since the bite has elapsed.

This would also compell further study. Repeat the study but with immediate application of the device. If any significant effeciveness is found, repeat the study to determine the effectivness over the range zero to 3 minutes delay. Finally, you could study the effects of varying application duration, but in any case it ought not exceed 3 minutes total.

Such a course of study would either conclusively prove that the device wasn't effective on snakebites at all in any situation or lead to a much better set of guidelines for its use that might reduce tissue damage.

Your points are well taken, but I suspect the reason for the three minute delay would be to account for the real world delay between the bite and even a fairly immediate first aid response.

I don't go walking down a trail, with my FAK in my hand. Three minutes sounds about right for the time it would take to size up the situation, dig out material, and get to work.

This tells me that the Sawyer may work if applied immediately, but more testing is required to learn its true limitations. If a Sawyer was kept ready for immediate access and applied within 30 sec after the bite, would it be effective? If the Sawyer works with that time constraint, then it may be worth having available for immediate use in snake country. In the Sawyer Bite and Sting Manual it states: ... "2) Use the Extractor pump immediately, you can leave the pump on for up to 15 minutes. The first few minutes are the most important for venom removal."...

If in the study they began use of the Sawyer at 3 minutes, they were intentionally ignoring Sawyer's recommended application instructions. The study may have been interested in the application at that point, but it was far from complete if they didn't at least test the manufacturer's recommended application protocol to determine if it worked at all. If the first few minutes are the most important for venom removal and the study waited until after the first few minutes had passed to begin, it's no wonder the pump failed.

I don't know. 3 minutes is a pretty long time. You get bit, freak out, run down the trail. Drop your bag, dig out the kit, drop your pants (or whatever) and start working that kit. Believe me, you'd be pretty motivated to move quick.

In EMS we have to have an AED shocking an arrest patinet in 90 seconds. that means arriving, assessing, pulling out the machine, turning it on, applying pads, charging and zap. it takes about 1 minute typically. I bet that most people would easily hit 90-120 seconds.

So I agree, 3 minutes should be the upper limits of the device. lets see a study with 30 sec, 1 min, 2 min and 3 min. Heck, I might do that in a few years!

I hope you will be working when I need an AED. But you guys are pros, following an established routine in a familiar environment. Some hiker, having never encountered a snakebite before, is bitten out of the blue. i think it will take a while to even realize exactly what is going on. Then....Dp you have that snakebite thingy? I think so... Well get it! Uhhh...OK, how does it work? Where are you bitten? All accompanied by various alarms and excursions.... And you are probably wondering where Mr Snake is, and trying to avoid him......

It is an interesting question. How long does it actually take before the victim, out in the real world, gets any kind of treatment?

Well there's two questions; first the question of whether the extractor works for average "Joe knucklehead" who doesn't prepare AT ALL and then there is the question of whether the extractor works for someone who's willing to crack the instructions ahead of time and has a bit of first aid training.

Kind of like discussing the success rates of armed self defense for someone that buys a firearm and one box of 20 cartridges (because that's all they're EVER going to need) and throws it in their sock drawer versus the success rates for people who prepare mentally, get competent instruction & practice regularly. The value of the conclusions drawn could vary dramatically based upon which group you plan to be part of.

Thanks, but I'd rather we just skip the whole "you're dead" thing

Good point ... they ARE rehearsed actions. Since I'm medical I might have a bit more interest in playing with gear beforehand and knowing where I pack it. Mr. Joe Weekender might have it in the bottom of a jansport book bag, thinking "gee, is this really needed?"

that would be an interesting study. I'll keep an eye out and maybe copy that some of the one's referenced here in shorter time frames someday. (man, I hate research ... )

I agree, and I do hate to be a downer. The first time someone gets bit, they'd probably spend the first two minutes wondering if they actually got bit and where the snake is. I think the only way the Sawyer device works is if someone has a habit of practicing pulling it out every time they feel a prick somewhere on their body. While that's possible, I don't imagine me ever being like that.



I had the same analogy in mind. If I were going into snake country, I may be motivated to practice with the Sawyer device. However, after a year or so of not getting bit, I'd probably forget all about it. I admit the weak link in the Sawyer device has got to be the operator.

Just to continue on in this line of thought. This morning I had a few spare minutes and rummaging through my car, I encountered a Sawyer that I had purchased some years ago. I took it out and examined the contents and played with them a bit.

Bottom line - if you are ever going to use one of these things, take it out, read the extensive instruction sheet and try it out. The operation of the syringe-like extractor is counter intuitive; i.e., it extracts venom when you depress the plunger, not when you draw the plunger back. You also have to assemble the blame thing.

I am pretty sure that you will lose precious minutes in applying the unit unless you are at least moderately well versed in its operation. The instruction sheet is very comprehensive and thorough.