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#230861 - 08/28/11 08:57 PM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: ireckon]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
If you're not used to gun shots, then you will be likely to freeze up.


Its the zingggg and whizzzzzz noises the bullets make as they go over your head that begin to have that effect...Not so much the crack sound as the bullet leaves the end of the barrel... wink

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#230865 - 08/28/11 09:26 PM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: bacpacjac]
Am_Fear_Liath_Mor Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 08/03/07
Posts: 3078
Quote:
Do you run in a straight line or do it in a random zig-zaggy way like in the movies?


This is a tricky question, as this is what we were taught by an old paratrooper who got himself a Military Cross. The line of bullet holes from a German MP40 running up his back of the wee fellow when he was at Arnhem was I think was when he didn't. whistle

But I can't really see this working in a crowded mall, especially if everyone does it. It would make getting for the exit rather tricky.



Edited by Am_Fear_Liath_Mor (08/28/11 09:31 PM)

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#230871 - 08/28/11 09:51 PM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
Originally Posted By: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor
Quote:
Do you run in a straight line or do it in a random zig-zaggy way like in the movies?


But I can't really see this working in a crowded mall, especially if everyone does it. It would make getting for the exit rather tricky.


The local malls have storefront columns, and mid-mall kiosks, planters, and displays, which should afford visual, and some ballistic, cover. Hopefully we can hear from some of those with real world experience about a dart-between-cover strategy.

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#230875 - 08/28/11 10:52 PM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
comms Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/23/08
Posts: 1502
Loc: Mesa, AZ
Thinking in terms of straight or zig zag or to quote a famous line from the movie, In-Laws, "Serpentine, Serpentine, Serpentine," is to think in terms of an open space.

In an urban environment, on the street or inside buildings like a mall, think in terms of Distance and Angle. Don't think of running away as doing a 1/4 mile drag race, think of it as making someone have to chase you (see you) in a maze and each turn represents less the shooter can see you and hit you as bullets can't turn corners.
_________________________
Don't just survive. Thrive.

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#230887 - 08/29/11 01:04 AM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
Nomad Offline
Addict

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 493
Loc: Just wandering around.
Try it and see....
I went into a mall some time ago and with this exact scenario in mind, casually strolled both a straight line and zig-zag route.

Decided it depends on many factors. Too many for a simple answer. Try it.

Nomad.
_________________________
...........From Nomad.........Been "on the road" since '97

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#230902 - 08/29/11 04:31 AM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
I believe stores generally have a back door leading to a non-public hallway or directly outdoors for the purpose of deliveries, right? We would duck into a store and try to locate that way out.

Failing that, I would observe the gunman from a place of cover and concealment if available, and try to use my knowledge of firearms to my advantage. You said an SKS. Look for: Does it have an external mag sticking out? If not, it's a standard SKS that uses an internal 10 round magazine that takes a few moments to reload, even with stripper clips. So try to count the gunmans shots to determine when he might be temporarily out of ammo and use that brief period to make our "run for it" through his normal field of fire (if that were the only way out). If you can see an external magazine sticking out, assume that to be either 20 or 30 rounds. And also realize that reloading this setup will be much quicker for the gunman than with stripper clips and an internal mag.

If our family was unable to escape through a back door or by running for it, we would hunker down in a small protected space that would require the gunman to come right to us (up close) to find us. This negates the advantage of his rifle and gives advantage to our handguns. A dressing room door leading to dressing rooms going off to either side would be ideal (watch for mirrors in the doorway that might give away your position). Set up on both sides behind the main dressing room door, CCW handguns drawn and ready (both mine and my wifes) with one kid each crouched at out feet (ready to spring out to tackle someone coming in). My kids are older and able to help in defense. Obviously we would give due consideration to NOT shooting at ourselves in any crossfire!

And there we would wait until hell froze over for the situation to be ended by the police authorities. We would use our cellphones to call 911 and tell the dispatcher our location and defensive setup. If the gunman somehow happened to stuble upon us, we would have as much advantage as possible due to preparing and setting up a defensive position.

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#230910 - 08/29/11 08:22 AM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Looks like someone just read Teeth Of The Tiger smile

Um ... SKS, huh? OK. If I was dumb enough to look and learn that info, then I'm dumb enough to run in front of him. Fortunately I don't have kids, and my wife and I are both in shape. That being said, I'd bet my life (literally, in this case) that I'm faster than she is. As soon as he reloads, get her sprinting towards the door. I go out with her, freeze a second or two (giving her a head start, and him a better target), then I run like the wind.

I've never been shot at, but I AM used to the sound of gunfire. I've paintballed a lot when I was younger. I'm relatively confident of my ability to find cover if needed. Being the male, I'm also a bigger target, and probably threat, than my wife, meaning I assume he'd shoot at me before her.

Part of concealment though is using the other mall patrons. Sorry buddy. But getting away is issue number 1.

Even at 50 yards, shooting a moving target isn't all that easy. Especially if there's mass panic and a bazillion other people screaming and running. If it was the 2 of us only, maybe a different course of action. Flock theory works here - lots of targets cuts down any one individual's chance of being a target.

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#230942 - 08/29/11 03:43 PM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
I assume "Teeth of the Tiger" is a novel? I'll have to look into it if you say (imply) it is a good one. I've never heard of it.

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#231008 - 08/30/11 01:59 AM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: Jackpine_Savage]
7point82 Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/24/05
Posts: 478
Loc: Orange Beach, AL
I meant it NightHiker. An actual reasonable, realistic, responsible & informed opinion... ON THE INTERNET!!!

ETS is one of the VERY few places I would expect to see such a well thought out response.
_________________________
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother." -Theodore Roosevelt

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#231015 - 08/30/11 03:20 AM Re: Mall table top exercise. Unlocked [Re: haertig]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Originally Posted By: haertig
I assume "Teeth of the Tiger" is a novel? I'll have to look into it if you say (imply) it is a good one. I've never heard of it.

Yeah, it's the most recent Tom Clancy novel. Kind of turns the reins over from Jack Ryan to his son and nephews.

Anyway, there's a chapter devoted to a mall shooter incident, similar to what you describe.

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