'Communities Against Terrorism: Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities Related to Military Surplus Stores', apparently is an FBI document which has been sent to Mil Surplus Stores and indicate to the surplus store that;

“Make bulk purchase of items to include:

Weatherproofed ammunition or match containers

Meals Ready to Eat

Night Vision Devices; night flashlights; gas masks

High capacity magazines

Bi-pods or tri-pods for rifles”

Should be reported to their local FBI office.

So where is the line drawn for folks who are tagged as being prepared, being a prepper, being a survivalist or a suspected terrorist? Labels and tags matter when put on internal state security and intelligence databases.

If that's the criteria for a terrorist, then I think a lot of Boy Scout and Girl Scout leaders just got put on the watch list. What a waste of tax dollars.

I think its a little more subtle than that, for example if you own 100+ camping stoves, fixed bladed knifes, field rations, flashlights or SAKs or whatever, the state security intelligence logic ( ) is that no-one would ever need that many and logically you must be secretly acting as a distributed quartermaster for an insurgency group or even worse, where one person within the group holds one individual item for that networked group.

I have a hard time imaging bulk MREs as a potential indicator of terrorism - ammonium nitrate in bulk, sure.

Does anyone have a link to the text for this document?

Google 'Grant number 2007-MU-BX-K002' will generate the following link along with a few other documents in the series such as 'Potential Indicators of Terrorist Activities Related to Martial Arts and Paintball Activities'. etc.

http://www.infragardlosangeles.org/uploads/Military_Surplus.pdf

I'm screwed.

What's a night flashlight, by the way? If it's different from a regular flashlight I'll need to run out and get some.

Oh, and don't come 'round looking for NVGs or gas masks at my place, I don't have any.

It also says "require a valid ID". So now we'll need ID to buy MREs and flashlights?


Maybe an IR flashlight, to go with the night vision goggles?

It's been awhile, but don't think IR works with NV. We just modified our regular flashlights with red or blue filters to keep from ruining night vision and/or blooming in the goggles. Also turned aircraft night lights (red) way down so we could just read the instruments. We sometimes turned them off completely and just used glow sticks to cover large areas of the instrument panel/engine instruments.

yup, i definitely think this is "feel good memo" and why not, memos are cheap except once in a while, you hear about a clueless dimiwit taking these things too seriously, resulting in a lawsuit opportunity ... the USA does indeed make two dollar bills, they're real

Off topic - I carry one in my wallet. I have had it since 1980. I have not been broke since I received it. You may now return to your regularly scheduled discussion.

I not sure you can compare littering to the possibility of erroneously being placed on a watch list with very real consequences.

Whew ... that was close. Thank goodness I only own "day" flashlights.

I love it when terms are coined that mean absolutely nothing. LOL

It seems to be a pretty bizarre list considering ex mil surplus kit tends to be pretty poor, even mil spec IR flashlights can be easily outperformed for about $12 from DealExtreme.

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/high-powere...ghts-8-4v-12625

and the digital NV monocular (approaching Gen 2 performance) I have was purchased from a local discount supermarket. Same with the 8x56 Binos for £50 (Superb low light performance and in many ways preferable in terms of tactical performance over NV, but does not appear on the FBI list)

http://www.alloutdoor.co.uk/binoculars/b...-binoculars.htm

I can understand the bulk MREs being on the list (why would anyone want to eat them long term) but I don't understand the match case entry on the list nor the rifle bipod (potential sniper??)

Aside from the political viewpoint of the differences between the 'prepared', the 'prepper', the 'survivalist', the 'terrorist or insurgent' what kit level marks the various transition levels from one label to the next.

i.e. does a bug out bag transition you from 'the prepper' into the 'the survivalist' mindset for example.

An SAS survival tin PSK may in some circles tag you 'hardcore' for example.

The psychology of this is actually quite interesting as to what kit you own is appropriate to you but seems strange to other more normal members of society

Looks like we're in the USSA now...

from http://www.infowars.com/feds-send-terrorist-hand-out-to-military-surplus-stores/

Another instance of guilt before innocence. I'll chalk this up to the same feeling with pharmacists who require me to sign a federal form when buying a package of Sudafed when I have a held cold.

Because, ya know, about 90% of Americans get a head cold, but only about 1% percent are meth addicts. So punish the 90%. Don't acknowledge that you also need gallons of brake fluid and battery acid for a single batch of meth. And a heck of a lot less than 90% of us are buying those ingredients.

Wow. So some genius think that surplus stores are going to demand a valid ID and maintain a record of sale on file for every MRE, flashlight and waterproof match container they sell???

Terrorists must be THICK at every REI, Backwoods, etc.

I ran a quick search and found no reference for "night flashlight". It could easily be "night vision flashlight" but you would think even the most moronic of proof readers would have caught that goof up either way.

Maybe this was some FBI Summer Intern's project?

I think I've figured out the match case entry by the FBI. If you purchase a match case* then there is a highly likely chance that you already have everything else in terms of kit stashed away i.e. 'Match case' equates 'Terrorist or Insurgent'.

*Note - This conclusion is reached after exhaustive BOB Youtube research...



I don't think that purchasing any of the items in bulk from the listed kit is a trigger to initiate an FBI investigation but just to add data to generate a record on the FBI database to data mine in the future. Although saying that, the keyword 'Tripwire' is mentioned at the bottom of the document when calling the local FBI office (threat fusion centre??) to report suspicious purchasing activity.

But again criteria labels and tags on the FBI database can lead to some severe consequences as in the Ruby Ridge debacle.

Edit - it appears that the reporting of suspicious purchasing activity is sent to a Joint Reserve Intelligence Centre JRIC, which is a Dept of Defense (DoD) organisation with some centres being managed by U.S. Army's Training and Doctrine Command, Intelligence Support Activity (TRISA)

So not even a civil criminal organisation data gathering operation (FBI) but an internal military security and intelligence gathering organisation. NORTHCOM perhaps??

Dear FBI,

Congratulations, you managed to stumble your way into creating a list that reaches a new level of uselessness. This list will provide you too many false positives to be of any value whatsoever for fighting terrorism. Many people hoard that stuff for hobby, and not merely for survival purposes.

Let me guess, it was an out-of-touch old geezer who made that watch list without browsing various Internet forums at a minimum. I'll feel much better if you admit this list is the result of a summer internship program that went awry.

Instead of following any useless leads from that list, I recommend you spend the money to come up with better ideas. Maybe start a task force to make mass media LESS about entertainment (e.g., no more treating every "man with gun" as if he's a raging maniac psychopath mass murderer). If that's not your responsibility, then try something else, anything else than a project that results in garbage like this list. Better yet, reduce your budget and give some money back to the taxpayers. I know a lot of people, include myself, who could put the money to use in a much more productive way.

Sincerely,
ireckon

I have long held the view that it is well to be cautious and to keep a low profile when purchasing certain perfectly legal supplies.

AFAIK it is perfectly legal to buy large qauntities of MREs tinned foods, batteries, water purification tablets etc.
I would however prefer to keep a low profile in such matters.
Apart from the risk that the government might think that I am a terrorist, Is it wise to be known as a "hoarder" in the event that TSHTF in the near term.

If there should be sudden release of toxic gas, do you really want to be known as the person with 10 gas masks ? Suppose that the release WAS by terrorists, people might conclude that you were involved and therefore took measures to protect yourself.

If some disaster resulted in large scale food shortages, do you really want to be on a database as having purchased loads of MREs ? no matter how lawful that purchase was.

There are many ways in which stocks may be purchased without attracting attention.
Pay cash, never charge or credit.
Visit different stores, where you are not known.
For mail order, have deliveries made to your work address.
Consider use of a prepaid payment card not linked to your bank account.
Ebay is pleasingly anonyomous, anyone can register under an assumed name and pay via paypal and a prepaid card, deliveries NOT to your home.
Dont attract attention in local stores, but always buy a little extra.To buy 36 tins of tuna might be commented on or remembered, no one will take the slightest notice of you buying 2 tins a week.
It would be a bit odd to buy 24 blankets and 48 sheets at once from a retail store and might be remembered. So dont ! go to a wholesale outlet, pay cash and ask for a receipt made out the "beach view hotel" or some such.

There are many activities that are perfectly legal, but still better not advertised.

"night flashlights;"

Or worse - the dreaded day flashlight....

Uncle finding new and amusing ways to waste tax dollars.

I'm glad this country is in such good financial shape, and that the taxpayers are so happy to ante up the funds to perpetrate boondoggles like this!

There used to be a time when the voted/hired 'leaders' were operated by the People of the country. Now, it's the other way around.

Our country doesn't have enough money to pay the bills. So how about we have our 'leaders' provide a complete list of what our money is spent on, and to whom. And I mean EVERYTHING. Publish the list just like the Los Angeles Times Sunday edition (it used to be quite large) except with no advertising or editorials, just the lists. Charge the Sunday Times price for it.

Then have all the taxpayers go through the list and draw a line through everything they think is extraneous. Then eliminate the most 'popular' ones until the USA can meet its spending limit.

Sue

Hey, there's no topic too contentious that I won't jump in to defend the messenger, just a bit anyway. Reading the wall poster / flyer as posted on Infowar, I can actually agree with it *except* for the labeling of bulk purchases of MREs and match cases as suspicious behavior. Because all the other commodities on the sample list - high capacity magazines, bipods or tripods, night vision goggles etc, when purchased *in bulk* actually do raise *suspicions*, in my mind anyway. Sure, there could be an occasional guy who coordinates a bulk purchase of super neato rifle tripods for 20-25 guys on a web forum, doing whatever it takes to save a few bucks. But the guy who wanders into a store and immediately clears out any available stock of tripods for AR-47s, pays with cash, and makes scurrilous comments about women, catholics, jews and blacks - yeah, that's suspicious. Would I report to the DOJ a bulk purchaser without any other suspicious behavior? Probably not.

Hey, some folks don't find bulk purchases of tripods and bipods as suspicious, and that's fine. If you removed the items you don't find suspicious from the list, or even remove the list of all suspicious items, is there a message behind the rest of the poster that you might actually agree with?

It doesn't really matter, I don't often shop mil surplus and I sure don't own a mil surplus shop. And I only own a modicum of MREs, just enough to eat for a week or so (which may be unusual by public standards, but is probably short of what folks on this forum stock). No scarier than your average LDS prepper...

Thank goodness toilet paper, baby wipes, #10 coffee and AA/AAA batteries weren't on there. That's my Costco list for next week.

Its as if they assume business owners have no common sense whatsoever. Not to mention that vague, citizen spying programs do not work well in free societies. Unless, of course, the objective is to make it less free.

I particularly like the disclaimer at the bottome.



Anyone else find similarities in this mentality to the Third Reich?

I'm not surprised. If anything, I'm surprised that it has taken this long.

At the risk of sounding political, a great many of us here were already on watch lists. NRA member- yep, so I imagine the Knife Rights members get it to. Buy reloading components or other hazardous shipping items through mail order- Dept of Trans has your name and address and they share it with HLSD. Engineering or hard science degree and you took out college loans- on a watch list. I buy real Sudafed, they got my signature, thank you Walmart- heck, last time I bought Sudafed, I also bought cheap, bulk shotshells, and jello (!) and paid for the whole thing at the pharmacy. And I've signed petitions protesting the counter productive, big-agri handout called manditory 10% ethanol in gasoline. So yeah, what's one more list that I'm on?

Give it a few years, and if you have a high school degree, some no neck in a Brooks Brothers suit is going to walk up to you and it will be "papers please, citizen".

Some don't. Owning a business doesn't guarantee it.

One of the reasons that non-prescription Pseudoephedrine sales are limited to two packages per month is because some businesses were selling it by the case to the meth makers. They knew, but shrugged and took the money.

Most, if not all libraries refused to keep track of what their patrons were checking out. You can say it was because it was anti-Consitutional, but the reason was probably what it would have cost.

Sue

Some time after 911, the FBI started asking colleges to divulge what library books their foreign students had checked out. This would seem more innocent than bulk purchase of ammunition, but they still asked for it anyway.

This makes me wonder, what does a terrorist read? Can you tell that apart from, say, the books that a student checked out for his term paper on terrorism and American foreign policy? Or what about students who became curious about terrorism after 911 and wanted to learn more about it by borrowing liberally from the library? Half of the kids I knew from my teenage years bought a copy of the Anarchist's Bomb-Making Guide or some such ridiculous title from Tower Records because it was considered cool. They couldn't pass high school chemistry if their lives depended on it. Would the FBI explore this embarrassing, pimpled past of many otherwise unremarkable Americans?

I don't know whether the colleges complied. Usually libraries are cash-strapped, and librarians don't typically track a particular individual's reading habits. I'd also think that the colleges would be worried about privacy issues and their legal liability. I'm hoping that the attention on preppers will turn out to be another one of these things. Like someone said, maybe it's an intern's summer project.

Da Bing

its just a good thing we don't "profile"

The Anarchist's Cookbook. Been there, done that.

Sue

Actually, I don't know anything about this stuff. What is currently bothering me to no end is that all the young Thai girls who work at the Thai massage parlor around the corner from my house drive new Mercedes and BMWs. Now what's up with that?

Discount on bulk purchases of fancy German cars. We need to alert the FBI. Them furrin girls could might be terrorists!

DB