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#229398 - 08/07/11 09:34 PM Oral Rehydration Salts
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2980
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
I have a couple of questions regarding Oral Rehydration Salts.

In the event there is limited water, should Oral Rehydration Salts be used since one of the benefits is a high absorption rate?

When we give blood, we are given juice and snacks to help our body replenish what we gave. In the event a person has a wound, now under control, should that person be given Oral Rehydration Salts to help their body replenish what they lost?

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#229415 - 08/08/11 08:07 AM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
I'm a bit confused ...
Do you mean give ORS by themselves? Ie, no water? How much blood loss are you talking?

I wouldn't give ORS, the volume is more important. I mean, the person still has the same concentration of ions in their body, just less overall total. The electrolyte abnormalities, if any, wouldn't be all that severe (blood loss would kill you first) in an acute event. Even in hospitals they give 0.9% sodium chloride, not for the salt, but because the osmolality is the same as the body.

The OJ and crackers just replace fluid and sugar, have nothing to do with the red cells (FYI).

Also, not sure what you mean by a "high absorption rate." Salts and water are absorbed in different parts of the intestinal tract.


Edited by MDinana (08/08/11 08:07 AM)

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#229424 - 08/08/11 12:58 PM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
jshannon Offline
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Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 647
Loc: North Texas
Supposedly some studies showed electrolyte fluids containing a small amount of protein are absorbed faster than those without protein.

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#229433 - 08/08/11 03:02 PM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: MDinana]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2980
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: MDinana
Do you mean give ORS by themselves? Ie, no water?

No. I have established that there is some water so the Oral Rehydration Salts would not be given without water. Since the packets of Oral Rehydration Salts say to mix with one liter of water, let's assume one liter per person for one day.

Originally Posted By: MDinana
How much blood loss are you talking?

I did say the wound is now under control but you are right, this does not establish how much blood was lost. Let's assume 250ml to 500ml of blood was lost.

Originally Posted By: MDinana
I wouldn't give ORS, the volume is more important. I mean, the person still has the same concentration of ions in their body, just less overall total.

Now I am the one who is lost. Adding a few grams of Oral Rehydration Salts to one liter of water will not decrease the volume. Also, I am not sure which of my two questions this was supposed to address.

Originally Posted By: MDinana
Even in hospitals they give 0.9% sodium chloride, not for the salt, but because the osmolality is the same as the body.

That IS the point of using Oral Rehydration Salts.

Originally Posted By: MDinana
Also, not sure what you mean by a "high absorption rate." Salts and water are absorbed in different parts of the intestinal tract.

In other words, low osmolarity.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#229435 - 08/08/11 03:31 PM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: jshannon]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2980
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
Originally Posted By: jshannon
Supposedly some studies showed electrolyte fluids containing a small amount of protein are absorbed faster than those without protein.

For this reason, CeraLyte is supposed to be better than regular Oral Rehydration Salts. "CeraLyte not only replaces lost fluids, it reduces on-going fluid loss. The mechanism for this action is believed to be a protein inherent in rice. . . ." -- http://www.chinookmed.com/Why_CeraLyte_ORS.pdf

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#229436 - 08/08/11 03:40 PM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
OK, I wasn't super clear. The volume of blood lost is more important than the electrolytes lost, at least initially. Additionally, rate of loss is important. An adult can die from 30% blood loss quickly, but live if it's over several weeks to months. So replacing the volume (ie, pure water) is more important initially; same idea as IV fluids. Granted, saline doesn't carry oxygen, which is why blood products are typically given after 2 liters of fluid.

Ceralyte ... oh how I give that away. You ever try it? Tastes pretty foul. The "ongoing fluid loss" is probably diarrhea related. It won't stop blood loss. sentence 1 on the back of the package: "Ceralyte 70 - a rice-based oral electrolyte solution to help prevent dehydration from diarrhea." we order this stuff by the pallet at my aid station. It works well for the runs.

If you're planning on oral rehydration from non-traumatic losses, it's not a bad solution. It packs larger than straight ORS packs (ie, from REI or Chinook med), but actually has some calories to it as well.

If you're looking at blood loss, IV fluids and blood are probably best, and second would be water. I can't imagine why ORS to an oral solution in a trauma would make much of a difference.

As an aside, 250ml is the amount taken during a blood donation. The average American adult can tolerate that just fine. 500ml is a bit much, but they should be OK too, if rather dizzy for a day or two.

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#229438 - 08/08/11 04:25 PM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: MDinana]
Jeanette_Isabelle Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 11/13/06
Posts: 2980
Loc: Nacogdoches, Texas
We now have the second question covered. Let's get back to the first question.

Originally Posted By: MDinana
If you're planning on oral rehydration from non-traumatic losses, it's not a bad solution. It packs larger than straight ORS packs (ie, from REI or Chinook med), but actually has some calories to it as well.

Does this mean that in the event of a limited supply of water, let's assume one liter of water per person per day, that Oral Rehydration Salts would help due to the level of osmolarity?

For clarification, I am asking about Oral Rehydration Salts, not CeraLyte. I mentioned CeraLyte to address another post.

Jeanette Isabelle
_________________________
I'm not sure whose twisted idea it was to put hundreds of adolescents in underfunded schools run by people whose dreams were crushed years ago, but I admire the sadism. -- Wednesday Adams, Wednesday

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#229440 - 08/08/11 04:36 PM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Arney Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
For #1, it can't hurt but considering the low total volume of water involved (1L over a day), I doubt it makes any significant difference for a healthy person. When the water volume is that small, and your body is thirsting for water, it will absorb all of it.

The one exception I would make is if the person's GI tract is compromised somehow, e.g. they're vomiting or have diarrhea or some stomach bug and the additional electrolytes will assist in fluid absorption. If I have diarrhea, drinking Vitalyte can significantly lessen its severity because the gut can absorb the water instead of letting it "run through you". For me, that works better and quicker than using, say, a binder like Kaopectate.

Also, some products are salty enough to make you thirsty, like Gatorade, which is probably the opposite effect you want. That's great for the company who wants to sell as many bottles of Gatorade as possible, but not good when you have a limited water supply to drink.

For #2, assuming you are making a "large" amount of water available to the wounded person at once, then it probably is more beneficial than straight water, although I'm not sure it makes much practical difference here either given that amount of blood loss.

It can be beneficial to increase the volume of fluid in the circulatory system after blood loss, and pure water would tend to dilute the blood, potentially causing other complications. Also, when giving a large volume of water to drink at once, the ORS can assist in increasing the rate of absorption of all that fluid.

Actually, I'm not sure if your body would want extra fluid to replace the blood volume loss. If your blood vessels constrict to keep up your blood pressure, then there's nowhere for that extra water to go except out through your kidneys. On the other hand, if the person is feeling lightheaded from low blood pressure, it could help.

Note that if the wound may require surgery fairly soon, then drinking water is probably not a good idea due to the risk of vomiting under anesthesia. Increasing fluid volume through an IV would be preferable.

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#229443 - 08/08/11 05:35 PM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
Mike_H Offline
Addict

Registered: 04/04/07
Posts: 612
Loc: SE PA
If you have limited water, you probably don't want to always use it with the ORS. Have 1L of pure, unmixed water has some advantages over the ORS.

I can site personal experience... I gave myself heat exhaustion from working in the lawn on a hot and humid day. I was drinking water while working, but probably not enough. Well, got dizzy, naseous, chilled... Drinking a electrolyte type drink didn't agree with me. Sipping pure water over a period of time brought my system back under control.

Yes, it is important to replace lost salt/sugars on some occasions. Sometimes pure water if preferred tho.
_________________________
"I reject your reality and substitute my own..." - Adam Savage / Mythbusters

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#229490 - 08/09/11 02:44 AM Re: Oral Rehydration Salts [Re: Jeanette_Isabelle]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
I would think that, at 1Liter/day, there's no pro or con to the ORS. Think about it - we developed to drink water, not salt water. ORS isn't some magical potion, it just replaces electrolytes.

Lets say you're sweating like crazy. sure, you're losing electrolytes, but also water, so you're probably increasing the concentration of electrolytes in your body. Adding extra doesn't help (hypernatremia, anyone?)

It's hard to over-drink water at 1L/day, so dilutional hyponatremia is pretty low risk.

Final answer from me? why bother with ORS - wasting money!

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