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#229485 - 08/09/11 01:11 AM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: clearwater]
Phaedrus Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 3164
Loc: Big Sky Country
Oh, I completely agree- 9 hours was PDQ! I was more commenting on the fact that they didn't know what to expect.
_________________________
“I'd rather have questions that cannot be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” —Richard Feynman

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#229517 - 08/09/11 06:45 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands


9 hours versus 35 minutes?
When two people are critical/serious?
Two helicopters responding
instead of one, who else might have needed that first 'copter?

Cultural or protocol differences need to be taken into account.
A SPOT or some other method of communication may be needed
in that geo-political area. Pre-scripted messages might be
the way to go.

I see plenty to improve upon. Every incident has opportunity to
learn from.

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#229518 - 08/09/11 06:53 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: hikermor]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
"You raise an interesting point. I go into wilderness and wild places in order to disconnect and to seek solitude, one of the defining characteristics of the wilderness experience.

I think that is why I have been somewhat resistant to obtaining a PLB. For years, I have managed without one, and have reaped the rewards of self-sufficiency and reasonable preparedness. I am not anxious to twitter and facebook when out in the wilds, not even a little bit. "

I agree as an individual. I like to choose the extent to which
I must rely on myself.

In this case it was school
kids, and reasonable preparedness should be up to a high level.

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#229521 - 08/09/11 07:25 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: clearwater]
chaosmagnet Offline
Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3842
Loc: USA
The SPOT and SPOT 2, with SOS, "I'm Okay", non-emergency help and "here I am" functions wouldn't have done any more good than the PLB.

The SPOT Connect or Delorme InReach might have permitted the user to follow up the distress alert with the sort of details that would have improved response times. Keep in mind, though, that the InReach isn't available yet and SPOT Connect (like SPOT and SPOT 2) is not as reliable as a PLB.

An Iridium phone would have been the best answer, but the cost is tremendous. I'm not aware if any Iridium phones are built to the same reliability standards as PLBs.

Given the available technology, it seems to me that NOLS did exactly right.

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#229537 - 08/09/11 09:57 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: chaosmagnet]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Perhaps the instructors, with their Sat phone, should have stuck
closer to the group. If they were able to be contacted by NOLS
once the PLB was activated, they could have converged on the scene and provided better communication.

Is the SPOT that "spotty" in Alaska? And what should they use in
the future? Or maybe is unaccompanied travel just not a good idea
there.

Here is another bear attack on a school group. This time in
Norway. Fatality too.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14456536


Edited by clearwater (08/09/11 09:57 PM)

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#229542 - 08/09/11 10:07 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: clearwater]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#229560 - 08/09/11 11:56 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: clearwater]
ponder Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 367
Loc: American Redoubt
IMHO - The ONLY event in this story that went well was the RESCUE. The PLB eliminated the normal problem - SEARCH. Getting rescued in 8 hours in a wilderness area is perfect. It is your job to be prepared to survive the 8 hours. The idiots involved include the NOLS organization and the parents.

I would love to see the list of BANNED EQUIPMENT that the kids were not allowed to take with them. It may be similar to the list of MANDATORY EQUIPMENT for the planes that fly over the same area.

1. BEAR SPRAY - 8OZ
2. PUMP SHOTGUN - OOO BUCK, SLUG, 000 BUCK, SLUG, 000 BUCK
3. HAND GUN - BIG BORE REVOLVER
_________________________
Cliff Harrison
PonderosaSports.com
Horseshoe Bend, ID
American Redoubt
N43.9668 W116.1888

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#229605 - 08/10/11 03:22 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: Glock-A-Roo]
BruceZed Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/06/08
Posts: 319
Loc: Canada
This is a very good point, the wilderness is a dangerous place sometimes and those who go out have a responsibility to "be prepared" and to expect that rescue will take a number of days. That they were rescued within 9 hours was excellent! That anyone expect rescue within a few hours is dangerous.
_________________________
Bruce Zawalsky
Chief Instructor
Boreal Wilderness Institute
boreal.net

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#229606 - 08/10/11 03:49 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: ponder]
Virginia_Mark Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 80
Originally Posted By: ponder
IMHO - The ONLY event in this story that went well was the RESCUE. The PLB eliminated the normal problem - SEARCH. Getting rescued in 8 hours in a wilderness area is perfect. It is your job to be prepared to survive the 8 hours. The idiots involved include the NOLS organization and the parents.

I would love to see the list of BANNED EQUIPMENT that the kids were not allowed to take with them. It may be similar to the list of MANDATORY EQUIPMENT for the planes that fly over the same area.

1. BEAR SPRAY - 8OZ
2. PUMP SHOTGUN - OOO BUCK, SLUG, 000 BUCK, SLUG, 000 BUCK
3. HAND GUN - BIG BORE REVOLVER






Agreed. To be "Prepared" in bear country is to be armed.. period. 99% of the time a firearm wont be needed, but when it is it's needed very badly.
_________________________

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#229621 - 08/10/11 06:02 PM Re: Griz attack followup, needed Spot, not PLB [Re: BruceZed]
clearwater Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/19/05
Posts: 1185
Loc: Channeled Scablands
Originally Posted By: BruceZed
This is a very good point, the wilderness is a dangerous place sometimes and those who go out have a responsibility to "be prepared" and to expect that rescue will take a number of days. That they were rescued within 9 hours was excellent! That anyone expect rescue within a few hours is dangerous.


Preparing for the best outcome, and expecting something, are two different things.

I don't think anyone was expecting quick rescue. In this
case the kids took the time to tend to the injured as their first priority.

However, if you don't learn and improve from incidents,!!!

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