It doesn't really matter what you or I draw from the tragedy in Norway, we're Americans, fully armed, with a higher incidence of armed assault, and I submit a fair higher incidence of crazy people on the loose. I can't even begin to imagine what my response would be as a Norwegian - but probably it wouldn't involve massive changes to anything I do. Its a different place than the US - I was there for their Constitution Day a few years back, I marched in the annual parade which took me past the Royal Palace and 40 feet from their royal family. NO bullet proof glass. NO metal detectors. It was nice, and I felt a little Norwegian that day. I gather they don't live in fear for their lives or the lives of their children, and there's the tragedy here, in that sense so many have lost loved ones in an insane man's assault on children. what a meaningless, insane, cowardly act.

Engineer to prepare for a similar act in your own locale if you want, it really doesn't matter - the key fact is that in Norway, I don't think they count it a sign of weakness to say 'we'll do no more than exact justice from this person' as a way of responding to a terrible tragedy.

Susan -- Between the German tourist and other campers (see Hero Camper Rescued Teens Fleeing Norway Massacre) campers on the mainland pulled "about 150 people from the water"; that's 25% of the number reported on the island and significantly reduced the target pool. It seems that getting off the island was a fairly successful tactic.

Teaching your children to swim well in open water would seem to be a good lesson to be learned; useful skill in any situation involving a lake, a river, the ocean, sailing, et al.

IMO charging the shooter would be a far less survivable tactic.

Any skill that could possibly save your life or the lives of others is a useful skill.

Sue

answering the question about the guard:
Norway Suspect Ordered Held...

First, Basecamp, do not edit my post down to soundbites and then respond to the individual sentences. That takes them out of context, and constitutes an act of rudeness to fellow forum posters. This forum is based on a respectful discussion of ideas, giving your discussants a fair shake no matter how much you disagree with them.

As for your claim that there are "mass attacks" in history -- I assume you mean massive casualty from one or two attackers -- please cite me some good examples from the 5th century. Don't call anyone political if you can't. The fact is modern firearms increase tremendously our combative power, in a way that even 19th c. firearms do not. If there are any doubts, please ask the numerous Japanese soldiers who, having run out of ammunition, charged at American machine gun nests with little more than naked bayonets. As Colonel Cooper said, bushido is fine, but it's no match for 30-06.

As for my mention of the Fort Hood shooting, the point is that even people who were trained for combat could not successfully resist a prepared, trained attacker. They had the desire to live as much as anyone else. Why did it take armed people to take him down? You seem to be underestimating the typical chaos of combat, which includes psychological confusion. Knowing what to do to improve your chances of survival is one thing. It's quite another to gather up the psychological resources to carry it out.

Basecamp, if we are confronted with a shooter, I'll charge with you, along with anyone else. We'll be right behind you every step of the way. Will you still run towards him to take the first bullet, to certain death, so that others will have a better chance of survival? Or will you be like the others, hoping that it would be someone else, and not you, to take a bullet, and that you will be among the survivors behind this brave man? What makes you KNOW that you will actually walk the walk when the time comes? What can you say to convince us that you are not just talking big behind the safety of the keyboard?

You haven't said anything to dissuade me from the belief that it's best to catch the criminal at the source. I believe the same strategy for airport security: don't catch things, which can always change and be hidden, but catch the people who would use the things. I don't think we're having a useful discussion. If you know effective tactics to deal with Breivik situation, please share.

Da Bing

Bing, wasn't trying to edit down to soundbites. There was a lot to address and I was trying to take it one idea at a time. If I was rude, I apologize.

I would like to know how you stop a criminal before he commits a crime, if you figure it out, there are a lot of LE agencies who would like to hear from you.

I guess you won't know about me til it happens, then. If you want to check out my responses, discuss it with anyone that you personally now who has the responsibility to respond to this type on incident. What I have mentioned is more effective than running, hiding or trying to swim away in this situation.

If you get a different answer, I'm interested in hearing it, along with that person's contact info.

I'm not real familiar with the 400's. You got me. I guess you must not be political.

By the way, If you know of a society who benefitted from being disarmed, please let us know.

Was it 600 Japanese who charged the single American with a semi-auto rifle?

Folks are asking for learning points. I see problems with the outcome of the incident and know how some folks are trained to handle it for a better outcome. It is not the things you want to think about every day, but we really can't live the way we used to.

There have been occasions, where bayonet charges have proved decisive even in modern warfare such as the up hill night time attack by the Scots Guards on Mount Tumbledown during the Falklands war in 1982.

How did the police know to go to the island?

Tactic list:

evade: run, hide, swim
counter: swarm attack

Available "weapons": rocks, sticks, dirt, sand

From an excerpt I just read:

After receiving an alarming call from his daughter attending a summer camp on Utoeya, Geir Johnsen rang police but said he was met with a wall of incredulity.

"What happened is that I was absolutely not believed when I explained what my daughter on Utoeya had told me. I was told if that was the case, the children had only to call the police themselves. Even when I begged them to take me seriously," he told local newspaper Fremover.

After two or three minutes of "frustrating" conversation, "I think I said something like, 'you really aren't being much help, you old [censored]' and she told me not to call her a [censored]," Johnsen said.

Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/worl...l#ixzz1TJW3vjeo

Lessons?

*Teach your kids to use 911 properly
*Try to work with the authorities. Insuliting someone isn't going to help.

If reporting a terrorist incident and you are having trouble reporting the incident ask the dispatcher if an anti-terrorism exercise was currently being held or still ongoing. Then inform them that the report you are making was real world and not part of the exercise. And that it might be a good idea to inform the dispatcher to ensure that the responders have live ammunition when they respond.