I didn't want to hijack Teslinhiker's thread.

I am curious as to where you draw the line between self-rescue and waiting for someone to do it for you.

Some are fairly obvious: lost or injured comes first to mind. Putting yourself in a worse situation by leaving a vehicle shelter and known conditions for unknown conditions seems kind of dumb and often slows rescue.

But when you know where you are and how to get out, such as with Teslinhiker's scenario, what is your thinking?

Keeping it simple, here's a scenario:

You're up in the mountains on a forest service/logging road, about 60 miles from the nearest services. A fairly large dead tree (mostly trunk) came down right across the hood of your car. The hood is crushed, the front axle is on the ground, the windshield is broken. No injuries, but you're really PO'd.

You're out of cell tower range, and no one knows you even left home. This was just going to be a day trip/hike.

The weather is decent, nothing serious in the weather forecast. Sixty-degree days, forty-degree nights.

Terrain is gradual downhill, steeper in some places. You plan on just following the roads you came in on. Snow is melting in the higher country, lots of little streams.

You and your SO are in decent shape, but nothing special. You don't weight 350 lbs, you have no known health issues.

Both of you always carry some survival gear in a pack:
* Shelter: You each have a tarp, a 3-season jacket and a hat;
* Water: you have one 12-pack of 16-oz bottles of water;
* Fire: Bic lighter, matches, cotton & Vasoline; lots of deadfall all over.
* Knives: 2 fixed-blades, 2 Leatherman;
* Food: You have some trail mix, granola bars, some apples, a few tea bags and those salty seasoning packets from Ramen Soup.
* First aid: simple basics;
* Signaling: mirror, surveyors tape, reflective mylar emerg blanket. You'll take the cell phones and keep trying them, maybe you can get a friend to pick you up, or to call a tow truck.
* Misc stuff like cord, small fishing kit, etc.

So, do you grab your gear and head out, or start a smokey signal fire and wait for rescue, possibly diverting aid to yourselves from others who might really need it?

What would you consider the primary dangers?

Sue

Interesting scenario of which many here could easily find themselves in and also have the kit listed on hand.

If you decide to stay put, starting a fire is one option, however depending on time of year and area, large smokey campfires etc are not all that uncommon and may be ignored. If you were over a major flight path, your fire may draw some attention...again depending on area.

Considering that no one knows we we went, and with no means of modern comms, both SO and I are in very good physical condition and have many years of wilderness experience that based on this particular scenario, it would be a fairly easy decision to gear up and move out with all the gear listed as it will easily fit in pockets or small pack.

As for primary dangers if you decided to walk out.

- Getting lost which depends on how well you don't know the area. Many times, forestry roads look much different when walking then driving where you were not paying that much attention. Taking a left fork and not taking right fork on the road without realizing for a few hours can lead to other mistakes.

- Foot/leg or other debilitating injury. One twist or roll of the ankle after you walked 20 miles from the relative safety shelter of the truck can put not only you but your SO into a real survival situation where some difficult and critical decisions would have to be made. Taking your time as well as making well thought out and methodical decisions is key to reducing the injury risk.

- Weather to a certain degree. Good example was this past weekend. We seen lows of just above freezing with rain and sleet to sunny 85F weather to 50 mile per hour wind gusts to almost torrential rain all within a 48 hour period. With little food which = low energy for the 60 mile walk, it is certainly within reason to not think that potential hypothermia could play a factor.

I am sure other here will have more thoughts, but one thing that I drill into people when we are out hiking, camping etc is that getting lost, hurt and dying is not caused by any one mistake or event. It has been proven that people when they do get lost, hurt or die out in the wilderness, it is the grand result of many unseen or unrecognized mistakes that lead up to the final event. This can certainly also apply to this scenario and also the scenario I posted about a few days ago in another thread.

time of year? Does it snow, or are you in a more arid area?
elevation?
do you have a map? what is the terrain between you and the nearest habitable location? e.g. if you start a smoke / signal fire, do you have any chance of being seen?
you drove this ~60 miles on the FS road, is it often travelled, or only traveled once or twice a year?
are you in grizzly territory?
what is the terrain like between you and civilization - are there forests, or is it scrubland?

shame on you for not leaving an itinerary with anyone who will send rescue. if that's really the situation, I recommend you talk to your SO, and make a plan to walk out. then sleep on it, and decide if the plan is still feasible for one or both of you. splitting up is a risky proposition - one person alone has to take most of your supplies and hope to get to help before the other person runs out of theirs. two walking together may not move as swiftly as one.

It all depends - but since you didn't alert anyone you may be missing, you don't give yourself many options. all the alternatives depend on how you answer these factors.

Underestimating your situation may be the primary danger.

STOP.

While you probably could hike the 60 miles to the nearest services, it will take several days to do so. I assume you will not camp or sleep on or near the road to avoid the potential for inadvertently being run down. I assume foraging for water will also take you off-road. You may be tempted to go off-road to cut across winding loops to cut walking time and distance.

During all those times, on- and off-road you are exposing yourselves to whatever unknown hazards you may encounter, including but not limited to injury and illness for which you are not equipped to deal. If they occur off-road, then you are that much harder to find.

Yes, it might work out that responding to your smoky fire might divert responders from some other need. But light the fire right away anyway. You know you need help, don't try to overthink the situation. It sounds as though there is also a road that needs clearing; it may well be a road critical to other fire and rescue operations - and responders do not even know that yet.

Give responders a short, easy, boring job. Let yourself feel a little embaressed if you need to. Light the fire right away. For all you know there may be someone nearby who can respond.

Ok Dweste. Now what do you do?

Two days have passed since you made your decisoon to stay put. No one has seen your fire. The litle bit of food you had, is now all but gone. You are tired and stressed after spending 2 very restless nights sleeping in your cramped truck wihout the beneift and warmth of sleeping bag or blankets and the windshield is now covered with one of the tarps.

Had you left 2 days ago, and considering this scenario that Sue layed out where you both are in decent physical condition, you would now either be home or very close to it..

To rephrase one of your statements above:

Overestimating your situation and making the decision to stay has put you in more imminent danger.

There is no right or wrong to this, staying could result in a rescue almost immediately, or it could result 4 weeks of waiting and starving to death. Conversely, walking out could result in you rolling into a ravine with a broken neck while a search party stands puzzled over the remains of your truck, an hour after you left...You takes your chances and you places your bets as best you can. If I felt there was no reasonable chance I would be discovered, I would leave a note indicating my path, and burn my truck tires, and attempt the walk out. If I felt there was a good chance of discovery, I would stay put. Keep it mind a PLB, and leaving a third party action plan alleviate all of this, and you can stay put, which is the least risky (but not always most fruitful) option.

There are several factors that have to feed into the decision of staying versus going.

* Weighing dangers of staying versus going

* Communications

* Injuries

* Members of party and their ability to trek long distances

* Chances that someone will look for us

* Chances that someone will see signaling

* Likely distance to rescue

* Navigation

It's vanishingly unlikely that I'd be in this situation because my car kit is much better, and also because I'd have left a trip plan with someone.

In the situation Susan describes, I'd first set up a signal fire and make ourselves as visible as feasible, including from the air. Next we'd look for water, do what we could to get comfortable, and perhaps spend some time looking for food. If a day or two of that didn't pan out, I'd start to think about leaving.

Yes that is correct, there is no right or wrong answer here . Either option has it's risks and is just a matter of each person evaluating each proposed option based on their experience of the outdoors and their physical conditioning.

If this scneario did not present itself with "You plan on just following the roads you came in on" and 60 miles cross country was required, then yes perhaps the more prudent and safer option would be to stay with the vehicle for a few days and hope that rescue would be forthcoming. However in sticking with Sue's envisioned scenario of road travel out the way you came in, then I would choose to walk out right from day one.

scenarios as Susan provided offer an opportunity to evaluate your responses to a varying continuum of threats... and those in the middle "grey" area are probably the most challenging...there is an old adage in political science when dealing with deteorating conditions.... if you place a frog in a pot of hot water he will jump out... but if you place the frog in a pan of cool water and slowly increase the heat over several days , he will boil to death as he does not perceive the gradual day to day change as as threat...I would offer that those of you living in locations with documented safety concerns have a definite go-stay plan in place... if it is wild fire threat, when the fire line crosses a certain highway... for me living in hurricane country, I'll stay through a CAT 3 and evacuate for a 4 or 5...bring on the scenarios..

Three bigger, smokier fires.

Dweste, not the answer I ever expected but good thinking!

I would burn one of the tires. Thick black smoke will always get attention. I know that is not the environmentally correct thing to do, but my life is worth considerably more than a few choking squirrels and birds.

I concur with the "shame on you" sentiment for not letting someone know where you were going.

The value of this forum is to put the brain trust to work; at least you get a variety of thoughtful responses - and maybe some other kinds!

Stay. Decision is probably colored by the knowledge that in real life my SO and son are not up to that walk and I won't be leaving them.

There is also an old staying that covers this situation pretty well. It is better the devil you know than the devil you don't. I'll stick with my current set of problems and work hard to be found before I go out and take on a new, maybe harder to solve set of problems.

-Eric

in a nutshell: if rescue is at all likely, i'll wait for it(maybe move to an open area or hilltop, but that's just meeting them half way, so to speak); if it's not, no point staying put(barring the area being a gold mine of resources).

Speaking as an old SAR guy, I don't think any rescuer would consider time spent assisting you as time spent frivolously. Many times we went out, typically looking for overdue people, finding them working their way back home, behind schedule for any of various reasons, but definitely still functioning. They would have gotten home on their own, and all we did was resolve the anxiety and provide a little encouragement, a drink of water, and a bite to eat. None of us ever considered our time wasted.

Instances of "SAR triage" were rare in my experience. When they occur, you deal with them as best you can....

I thought about these two scenarios today. DS and I went pseudo-camping this weekend. (We did a "what if?" weekend with my mom to get her better prepped.)

My mom's trailer was at one end of the approx. 3 hour drive, and home was at the other. We had to take 2 major roads and 3 minor to get there. Although a pretty straight forward route, it's sporatically populated (by people and black bears) territory.

DS asked if we could explore some sideroads on the way home, and see if we could find a new route.

We had a backroads map book, our hiking kits, water bottles, tent, sleeping bags, thermarests and snacks so if we had a break-down we could have stayed or walked to the nearest town.

Problem #1 - no cel phone. We couldn't call DH or my mom to tell them where we were going and we also couldn't call for help.

My solution? Stick to the plan and have to make the choice.

Not sure what I would do in your scenario, Sue. I'm a play it safe girl, and both sides of your coin have inherant risks. DH would probably want to hike out and I'd likely sway that way too if it was just the two of us. We leave a huge breadcrumb trail along the way though.

A similar scenario was covered in a recent episode of "Dual Survival" (or what I like to call "The Survival Odd Couple"). The two were stranded on a logging road in Maine, and had to decide what to do with limited supplies.

The episode highlighted two necessary pieces of information that are not presented here, but could be easily determined by direct observation. First, is the area where the vehicle is stuck clean and open? If not, the smoke from signal fires will likely be diffused by the tree cluster, and rescuers will have difficulty locating you by air. Second, is there any indication that the road has been recently travelled? Looking at the road beyond the fallen tree could reveal such signs.

For me, an enclosed area means I'm walking, regardless of the road. An open area and recent road activity means I'm definitely staying. An open area with little activity means I will try my best with a signal fire and recon the area for the first 24 hours. I imagine the quality of the nearby water will be the deciding factor, since I have no means of purifying it. Once the bottled water runs out, I'll want to start walking towards civilization (and antibiotics) so I can get rid of the critters I ingested from the little streams as soon as possible.

At home we DVR this show. The nickname my wife and I use for it is "Brokeback Survival."



In my mind, I'm likely to start moving before the clean water runs out.

Slight thread hijack, but may turn out to be eventually related to this thread.

Just read this news story and could help but think of Sue's scenario. It will interesting to see if any real life parallels develop here, if and when the couple are found...

The RCMP in Smithers, B.C., are searching for two newlyweds from Britain who disappeared after leaving on a backcountry camping trip nearly three weeks ago.

Caroline and Ben Davies arrived in B.C. in June on a visit to family. The couple, who are both experienced in the outdoors, then borrowed a truck to head north toward Alaska to do some camping.

Map of the area. There is some very rugged country up in that region.

FYI Seems those lost campers are safe and sound: http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/07/12/newlyweds-unaware-theyd-been-reported-missing-mounties


Of course Sue’s scenario has no answer. To come to a conclusion as to stay or go we need to add our own extra info and assumptions about the area and the situation.

For me, in my part of the world, I’d stay put. That’s because anywhere I could get to for a day trip is very likely to have another vehicle come along.
If its winter, I think I could get to a place where there may be only one vehicle per week, and probably on the weekend, so staying may entail a week’s wait; but the rest of the year I think it would be less than a week’s wait.

Having said I’d wait I guess I’d add the qualifier that I may walk a “short distance” to a nearby intersection because that could double the chance of being found, and I’d put an obstacle on the road to force a vehicle to slow or stop. If there are no intersections nearby, then there would be no real point in walking half way along the road because any vehicle which comes half way along is doing so with the intention of driving the entire track, so I’be better off saving my energy and waiting.

Stupid Question. Sorry Note the item's that I have highlighted.
Your car has just been BB'd by a Widowmaker. The deadfall is just screaming that staying here is suicide by widowmaker and no one knows that you are there. So who exactly is going to be looking for you?
So leave. Put your gear together. Cannibalise what you can of the truck and go. Quickly and quietly. Whilst you still can.

Perhaps the folks whose job it is to be curious about the plumes of dirty smoke you create from the fallen widowmakers aka firewood?

I have posted two questions recently, just because I'm curious about how people think.

First, there was the question about the earthquake, collapsed freeway overpasses, and trading cars.

The results (just in general terms) were that 41% of the people would be willing to trade their cars with another person, and 58% said they would park it and walk, or just wait for help. (I was only interested in the car-trade part, not if they stayed or left).

There wasn't any correct answer.

On this last question, 66% people said they would hike out, and 33% said they would stay and await rescue.

This one was kind of a trick.

I gave as many options as I could to get you to leave: a clear, obvious path, reasonable health, water, food, some gear and shelter.

If your car could get in there, you could walk out the same way.

Just because your cell phone didn't work there doesn't mean it might not work on your way out.

The closer to the main road you got, the more likely you would be able to flag down a car or State Patrol/County Sheriff.

The feeling I got (right or wrong) was that some people might feel that leaving was just too much effort, or that it was a matter of the Fear Factor: the thought of being outdoors at night maybe being the main one. Don't laugh at fear of the dark: it's very real and affects a lot more people than you suspect. It's really fear of the unknown, I think, but our modern, technological society kind of fosters it.

Another issue is that many people only look at the big picture and it looks too scary, overall. But if you sit down and think how to do it in bite-sized chunks, it might look more do-able.

And... wouldn't it be a nice thing to do it and KNOW that you were capable of handling it?

Comments?

Sue

Sue, you make some valid points in your post. As you so well stated, there is no correct answer. Every person here has different technical /survival skills along with wide ranges of wilderness "ground time" and I don't hold any different opinion of those who would rather stay versus those who like myself, would rather hike out.

Furthermore, you mentioned that bite-sized chunks is the key and that is great thinking. A 60 mile hike divided into well thought out and balanced hiking/resting segments is very doable for my SO and I based on our experience and skill levels especially when sticking to the FS roads which is part of this particular scenario. Had this scenario involved cross country travel over more formidable terrain and coupled with bad weather, then our decision would probably be different depending on the overall scenario.

I have actually come across folks who didn't even realise that it gets dark out in wilderness, because they have never been in an area where there is no electric light. It actually is quite funny to see the fear, especially when you tell them about everything that is lurking in the dark. But then again I thought the film 'The Blair Witch Project' was actually a black comedy when I first saw the film.

The dark does heighten the other senses though and having an Am Fear Liath Mor circling the tent a top of Ben Macdui is no laughing matter.

There are certain areas where you do get an uncomfortable feeling where you definitely wouldn't want to set up camp though. For example you wouldn't want to camp near the 'deils or devils head'



or in the Valley of the Kings outside Luxor in Egypt.

Sue,

Excellent points about the scenario and under different personal circumstances my answer would change. But I can't seem separate my reality from the scenario presented.

My variant of this includes my wife, son and daughter. My 6 year old daughter could probably hike out with me, heck she might end up dragging me along the last bit . My son is older and has Down Syndrome with some mobility limitations and some other challenges so he probably won't be walking out, at least not without more supplies and support. Similarly, my wife has some mobility challenges due to foot surgery and a long walk over several days just isn't in the cards.

So while I think the hypothetical couple could walk out, I don't fit the profile and my answer is colored by that.

Good discussion and I keep learning so much here.

Thanks,

-Eric

Eric, every decision MUST be colored by the individual situation!

Can you imagine trying to hike out (even on roads) with five very young children? Pushing a wheelchair on rocky ground? Leading an elderly couple who have heart conditions?

Anyone who bases their decision on someone else's opinion or situation certainly isn't anyone I would want to be around in a survival situation.

Sue

Agreed! Doing something strictly because someone else would or could isn't a very good decision-making model. Similarly, we need to keep that in mind when armchair other people's decisions. Trying to figure out what we would have done is very different from decreeing what they should have done.

I agree that real life scenarios must be based on real life capabilities and limitations.

The scenario at the top of the thread posed a hypothetical situation involving two adults in decent shape. In trying to respond to that scenario I keep coming to stay put despite all the seeming advantages of trying to walk out and just wanted to provide some perspective on why to others.

Thanks for the excellent discussion points.

-Eric