#226992 - 06/30/11 08:31 PM
Re: Global food shortages
[Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
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INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
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The cellulose must first be broken down into it's component sugars, which is something mankind has yet to master. *Picture of modified cow snipped* There you go. A Cellulose to Methane ( byproduct ) converter named Daisy. Now turn the methane (1 carbon, 4 hydrogens) into sugar (6 carbons, 12 hydrogens, 6 oxygens). Done yet? How about now? Still waiting... -Blast p.s. where does the tubing enter the cow?
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#226995 - 06/30/11 08:59 PM
Re: Global food shortages
[Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
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INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
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I thought that the name of the game was to produce a fuel that can be used in an internal reciprocating combustion engine. More precisely, the internal reciprocating combustion engines already owned by millions of people, without modification of those engines. -Blast, trying to imagine what a methane-powered jet plane would look like. p.s. I'm also imagining huge "factory" complexes with thousands of cows caged up in rows, a tube feeding them switchgrass at one end and a methane collection unit attached to the other end. *shudder*
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#227004 - 07/01/11 02:23 AM
Re: Global food shortages
[Re: Am_Fear_Liath_Mor]
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Geezer
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
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I thought that the name of the game was to produce a fuel that can be used in an internal reciprocating combustion engine. Henry Ford did that around the turn of the previous century. Most of his vehicles were dual-fuel: alcohol and gasoline. In the city, where petroleum was available, people used gasoline. When they were in the country, where most farmers made their own alcohol, they would use home brew. My work Suburban is dual fuel as it sits in the driveway. The current method of making ethanol from sugar- and starch-rich plants like cattails and sugar/fodder beets is still the simplest and cheapest way to go. They may find ways eventually to use cellulose, but not right now. Keep in mind the machines that could process mesquite pods would have to be designed and built from the ground up and wouldn't likely be able to be used for any other plants. Ummm... like that's never happened before? People just don't realize what a powerful, compact, easy to handle energy source oil and natural gas are. Nothing else comes close to it. Powerful, compact, easy, cheap... Of course! We've been indoctrinated to believe that everything must be easy and cheap. The be-all and end-all of our existence. p.s. I'm also imagining huge "factory" complexes with thousands of cows caged up in rows, a tube feeding them switchgrass at one end and a methane collection unit attached to the other end. *shudder* I guess you shouldn't look now, but they're almost there. Just replace the switchgrass with the corn they're already using: I guess they're just looking for a cheap source of tubing from China. And some No Smoking signs... Sue
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#227007 - 07/01/11 03:20 AM
Re: Global food shortages
[Re: Susan]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
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Henry Ford did that around the turn of the previous century. Most of his vehicles were dual-fuel: alcohol and gasoline. Henry Ford envisioned that ethanol made from plant matter would be the best way to power vast new fleets of automobiles. Besides Henry Ford, didn't Rudolf Diesel originally design his engines to run on vegetable or seed oils, not petroleum? Funny how ideas that we think are new are actually quite old. They even had electric cars way back then.
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#227128 - 07/03/11 03:10 AM
Re: Global food shortages
[Re: Blast]
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Old Hand
Registered: 01/28/10
Posts: 1174
Loc: MN, Land O' Lakes & Rivers ...
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You left out the really important quote from that article: But yields from a grass that only needs to be planted once would deliver an average of 13.1 megajoules of energy as ethanol for every megajoule of petroleum consumed—in the form of nitrogen fertilizers or diesel for tractors—growing them. "It's a prediction because right now there are no biorefineries built that handle cellulosic material" like that which switchgrass provides, Vogel notes. "We're pretty confident the ethanol yield is pretty close." This means that switchgrass ethanol delivers 540 percent of the energy used to produce it, compared with just roughly 25 percent more energy returned by corn-based ethanol according to the most optimistic studies.
That switchgrass article itself states it's calculations are all theoretical.Yeast can't break cellulose down into alcohol. The cellulose must first be broken down into it's component sugars, which is something mankind has yet to master. -Blast
p.s. FYI, when the trick of breaking cellulose down into yeast-friendly sugars is discovered you won't have to worry trying to find cellulose-based ethanol over corn-based ethanol. It will ALL be cellulose-based. [/quote]
I defer to your chemistry expertise of which I have none, but there are already a lot of cellulosic ethanol plants up and running, but most don't use switchgrass yet:
Commercial Cellulosic Ethanol Plants in the U.S.[73][74] (Operational or under construction)
Company..... Location..... Feedstock
Abengoa Bioenergy Hugoton, KS Wheat straw BlueFire Ethanol Irvine, CA Multiple sources Colusa Biomass Energy Corporation Sacramento, CA Waste rice straw Coskata Warrenville, IL Biomass, Agricultural and Municipal wastes DuPont Danisco Cellulosic Ethanol (DDCE) Vonore, TN Corn cobs, switchgrass Fulcrum BioEnergy Reno, NV Municipal solid waste Gulf Coast Energy Mossy Head, FL Wood waste KL Energy Corp. Upton, WY Wood Mascoma Lansing, MI Wood POET LLC Emmetsburg, IA Corn cobs Range Fuels[75] Treutlen County, GA Wood waste SunOpta Little Falls, MN Wood chips SweetWater Energy Rochester, NY Multiple Sources US Envirofuels Highlands County, FL Sweet sorghum Xethanol Auburndale, FL Citrus peels
_________________________
The man got the powr but the byrd got the wyng
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#227271 - 07/05/11 12:42 PM
Re: Global food shortages
[Re: Byrd_Huntr]
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INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
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Byrd_Huntr, that's excellent information, thanks for the list! I checked the different plants out and currently they are all "pilot plant" scale designed more to test the technology rather than full-scale production plants. Still, it's a start. They all seem to be using variations of acid hydrolysis to break down the cellulose down into yeast-friendly sugars. BlueFire Ethanol, Inc.'s technology page has a good description of the process. In the past this has been tricky to do on a large scale as it needs constant, minute tweaks to the batch as it is broken down otherwise you get a run-away reaction which can be very damaging. Advances in computer-controlled "tweaking" seems to be the key to these different plants. It'll be interesting to watch what improvements these companies make on the actual chemistry of the process. -Blast
Edited by Blast (07/05/11 12:42 PM) Edit Reason: improved claity of thought
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#227426 - 07/07/11 10:40 PM
Re: Global food shortages
[Re: Blast]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/15/05
Posts: 2485
Loc: California
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The Department of Energy just announced that they will be providing loan guarantees for POET (already listed in Byrd_Hunter's list) so they can build the first commercial-scale cellulosic ethanol plant, which will be completed sometime in 2013. Output should be up to 25 million gallons a year.
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