Equipped To Survive Equipped To Survive® Presents
The Survival Forum
Where do you want to go on ETS?

Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#226982 - 06/30/11 06:55 PM Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
I recently read and re-read four Tom Brown, Jr. books as background for addressing my is-or-can-tracking-be-science question. I also read a number of other tracking books. Trying to compare and contrast the various books has caused me some problems.

Specifically I am talking about: Tracker, Case Files of the Tracker, Science and Art of Tracking, and Nature Observation and Tracking. The non-Brown books are clearly non-fiction, but there are aspects of the Brown books that do not seem to fit that mold. Nor do the Brown books seem structured or intended to be fiction.

If the other books can be lumped together and seen as advocating science-based tracking, do you think it is fair to call the Brown books spirit-and-science-based tracking?

Top
#226983 - 06/30/11 07:42 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: dweste]
MoBOB Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/17/07
Posts: 1219
Loc: here
One thing you have to remember about Tom Brown is that he has been given an almost shaman status in some particular Native American culture/nation. He has studied extensively in those ways. As all of us do, we tend to view and approach life through our own worldview. His leans heavily to the natural/spiritual because that is who he is. I am sure that as a shaman (wisdom holder and seeker) he looks to a variety of disciplines to ensure he is gaining as much knowledge as possible to benefit those he comes in contact with. There are aspects of science that, no doubt, are helpful to his craft. Remember, he will view the science through the lens of his natural/spiritual training. There may an effort to resist categorizing and labeling in this instance. This is because those are very Western ideas and processes. He, I believe, just treats it as tracking. In the end, Tom Brown's method is Tom Brown's method.
_________________________
"Its not a matter of being ready as it is being prepared" -- B. E. J. Taylor

Top
#226988 - 06/30/11 08:07 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: ]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Originally Posted By: IzzyJG99
but have a 150,000 dollar Hummer they drive around in.


I'm not a fan of TBJr, but I'm even less of a fan of misconceptions. Yes, Tom drives a Hummer. He had been driving Subarus for years but the sand of the Pine Barrens kept destroying their engines in about a year. Hummer heard about this and GAVE Tom a Hummer for free and it hasn't had any engine problems with the sand. Lots of famous people are given free stuff just so the manufacturer can claim so-and-so uses our product.

-Blast
_________________________
Foraging Texas
Medicine Man Plant Co.
DrMerriwether on YouTube
Radio Call Sign: KI5BOG
*As an Amazon Influencer, I may earn a sales commission on Amazon links in my posts.

Top
#226993 - 06/30/11 08:34 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: NightHiker]
Blast Offline
INTERCEPTOR
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 3760
Loc: TX
Quote:
Really all science does is provide a checklist approach to something that an artist doesn't need.


You know what? I love that statement!! It's very true.
-Blast
_________________________
Foraging Texas
Medicine Man Plant Co.
DrMerriwether on YouTube
Radio Call Sign: KI5BOG
*As an Amazon Influencer, I may earn a sales commission on Amazon links in my posts.

Top
#226996 - 06/30/11 08:59 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: dweste]
dweste Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
This seems to assume tracking is an art and not a science, and that only artists as opposed to scientists can be trackers. I will have to think about that.

Would we then be talking about artisan trackers versus scientist trackers?

Top
#227095 - 07/02/11 07:04 AM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: dweste]
EMPnotImplyNuclear Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 382
everything is an art smile
Art is a skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation.
Science is a method of study, practice, or observation.
To quote an earlier post of mine
Quote:
* the scientific method has five elements (goals, models, data, evaluation, revision),
* the scientific method is cyclic,
* the scientific method is a means of achieving progress toward a chosen goal.

GOAL: sharpen RSK Mk4 knife
MODEL: available angle settings on the lansky
DATA: visual examination for presence of sharpie mark
EVALUATION: if sharpie mark disappearing, you're sharpening edge
REVISION: change angle setting until you're sharpening

start with the smallest angle, increase until you're removing sharpie

To become a tracker, a successfull tracker, you have to employ scientific method, even if you don't know what it is smile
If you're not aware of the scientific method and its five elements, its easier to fall prey to bias and other pitfalls and reach erroneous conclusions -- this is where "spirits" as are accepted an explanation :)(i'm not implying anything about tom brown , I've only read a few articles by/about him)

in a similar vein, when tom brown talks about almost imperceptible signs which he can read using his human eye, that you only develop through decades of practice ... this could be entirely his bias -- the human eye is not great at minute measurements

can tom brown jr tell if the person he is tracking has a cold? My position is that he might be able to guess, some of the time, if the person sneezes while slowly walking across some mud, maybe smile

can tom brown jr tell if the person he is tracking is feeling weak? I say that person might have sand/gravel in his shoes smile

now you wondered about artisan trackers versus scientist trackers? just wait until there is a smart-phone app for that!! smile

I hope that clarifies some thoughts for you smile

Top
#227099 - 07/02/11 12:08 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: EMPnotImplyNuclear]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I agree with a lot of this; tracking is often a fairly informal, albeit accurate, application of logic, deduction, model construction, and prediction. One area you might examine are studies of fossil trackways which range in age from the Mesozoic to relatively recent (some of the early Homo trackways from Africa).

After all, those investigations are carried out by paleontologists, and they are "scientists," right? Ergo, their activities are scientific. Next question.

I write this as I am digging fossils on a site where we have a wealth of trackways. Some of us are wondering about what, if anything, to do with them since they are not the principal focus of our investigations. One characteristic of "scientists" is they are thoughtful before destroying data..
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

Top
#227106 - 07/02/11 04:47 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: dweste]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
Quote:
This seems to assume tracking is an art and not a science, and that only artists as opposed to scientists can be trackers.


Why can't it be a combination of both? You may be trying to draw a line where no line exists.

First, a very experienced person (in anything) will assimilate a lot of information, some of which he/she doesn't even realize.

And I just looked up the word 'hunch'. One of the definitions: 'a guess or feeling not based on known facts'.

Several (or more) years ago, I was reading that a 'hunch' or what is often called 'intuition' is really your subconscious putting two and two together, based on all your prior knowledge, experience, and faint messages that your senses are picking up. Your subconscious is always processing information, much of which the conscious tends to ignore.

You walk into your house (supposed to be empty), and six feet inside the front door, you get the 'feeling' that someone else is in the house. ESP? Luck? Or did your ears hear a small sound that didn't belong? Did your nose pick up a bit of unfamiliar scent? Did your eyes see something out of place that your conscious didn't? Did you feel a faint air movement in this supposedly closed house?

'Civilized' Man has lost a lot of basic survival instincts over time. Recent Man has lost even more. But our subconscious is still the same, working 24 hours a day. It's just that now we mostly ignore it. But what if we don't?

Sue

Top
#227296 - 07/05/11 06:09 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: NightHiker]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
I don't know squat about tracking - but still, I have theories... wink

My understanding is that tracking requires extensive knowledge and understanding of the environment and ecology - not only the habbits and preferences of whatever you're tracking, but also the habitat, plants, other animals and how they affect each other. Not in books, but in the actual environment.

This takes A LOT of time and practice. I have no trouble visualizing how the thorogh ecologic understanding will come close to having "mystical" qualities. It is just how the mind works: Yearlong experience is distilled into an intuitive understanding of what's going on in the woods today, what those faint marks in front of you are, who made them and why.

I don't see mystery. I just see a thorough understanding of a complex ecosystem and fine honed set of skills - knowing what kind of marks to look for and why.

Top
#227298 - 07/05/11 06:32 PM Re: Tom Brown, Jr. - spirit-and-science-based tracking [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Bingley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
I'm inclined to think that Susan and MostlyHarmless may have something there. I don't know anything about tracking, but I do know that practicing a highly specialized discipline often gives one "intuition" in that particular area. Instead of having to reason out everything and carefully weigh the various possible solutions, your brain has been so conditioned that you can cut straight to the one that is probably right. Imagine seeing a set of situations repeatedly, over years and years, and eventually you catch on: if I see x, y, and z, then a, b, and c are very likely to happen. When the discipline is complicated enough, there may be too many factors to enumerate mechanically as I just did. To outsiders, intuition acquired over many years of training suddenly appears divinely inspired.

Such intuition allows us to be more efficient at the activity, and can really save us when there is no time to spare for detailed, scientific analysis. In old society as today, this can come in very handy.

Again, I don't know whether this is the case with Tom Brown. I suspect such "technical intuition" may be found up, and even possibly inseparable from the spiritual practices he engages in. No, I don't necessarily mean that his deities are "scientifically efficacious." But if one practices, say, tracking, in conjunction with certain religious rituals, then the brain might just connect the two when developing intuition.

Alright, let me get off my soap box. Anyone out there knows anything about psychological research into intuition???

Da Bing

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



Moderator:  Alan_Romania, Blast, chaosmagnet, cliff 
November
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Who's Online
0 registered (), 415 Guests and 13 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Aaron_Guinn, israfaceVity, Explorer9, GallenR, Jeebo
5370 Registered Users
Newest Posts
For your Halloween enjoyment
by brandtb
Yesterday at 01:29 PM
Chronic Wasting Disease, How are people dealing?
by clearwater
10/30/24 05:41 PM
Things I Have Learned About Generators
by roberttheiii
10/29/24 07:32 PM
Gift ideas for a fire station?
by brandtb
10/27/24 12:35 AM
Emergency Toilets for Obese People
by dougwalkabout
10/21/24 12:34 AM
The price of gold
by dougwalkabout
10/20/24 11:51 PM
Man rescued, floating on cooler
by Ren
10/16/24 02:39 PM
Satellite texting via iPhone, 911 via Pixel
by Ren
10/11/24 11:25 AM
Newest Images
Tiny knife / wrench
Handmade knives
2"x2" Glass Signal Mirror, Retroreflective Mesh
Trade School Tool Kit
My Pocket Kit
Glossary
Test

WARNING & DISCLAIMER: SELECT AND USE OUTDOORS AND SURVIVAL EQUIPMENT, SUPPLIES AND TECHNIQUES AT YOUR OWN RISK. Information posted on this forum is not reviewed for accuracy and may not be reliable, use at your own risk. Please review the full WARNING & DISCLAIMER about information on this site.