Sue -- his/her pack.

Without training, a dog will revert to instinct. My dogs get behind me when they're scared; as the pack leader, they look to me for protection. They haven't been trained differently. They are very protective of my wife and children, however, and I'm confident that either or both would kill and or die to defend them.

Perhaps I have overestimated your Mark One, Standard Dog.

Hi guys, long term lurker's first post. I work with dogs (but I am not a dog behaviorist and have no qualifications in this field) and this thread finally convinced me to register. There are a lot of interesting points covered that I want to put my thoughts on, I hope I don't ramble too much ;-)

Firstly, don't get a dog unless you are primarily wanting a close relationship with it that goes beyond any possible survival benefits. We need things from dogs, but they also need things from us in order for them to be happy and well balanced. Even if you get the 'perfect' dog, at some stage it will get old and arthritic and you need to care for it then too. Millions of dogs in the western world are euthanized every year because of lazy / uncaring / unthinking owners, it does not reflect well on our society IMO. You are doing the right thing by researching first!

Here in Australia the average cost of a dog over a 10 year life expectancy is $25,000 - bear in mind that for the sort of training you will need this cost will go WAY up, and also that most dogs live well beyond 10 years. Can you afford it? If your dog snaps a cruciate and you have a $5000 vet bill - can you afford it?

Dogs don't belong in the back yard, they are social animals and need to have company. Also outside guard dogs, unless VERY well trained, are too easy to neutralise (poisoning, shooting,letting them escape etc). A dog in the house with the ability to roam everywhere is much more effective, intruders have to break in to neutralise them by which time you are well warned, and they will still hear / smell people from well outside the house. You just have to have the dog in the house - great if you like dogs and want the companionship, not so great if they are just a tool. Can you share a house with your dog, their slobber, their wind and their hair?

Dogs act by instinct unless otherwise trained. This instinct is dependent upon nature and nurture - in other words how they are raised, their personalities and their breed.

Forget most of what you might think you know about dogs - the science has changed hugely over the last 10 years. For the average domestic pet the best training these days is based on Positive Response training, designed to provide a well balanced calm dog that interacts well with family members and the public (human and canine). Forget choke chains and Cesar Milan (if you want to learn about dogs pay for a professional, don't expect to be educated by an entertainment show). Positive Response training is largely about teaching you what motivates your dog and how they think, so you can motivate them into becoming a good family member. Old methods are based on fear, and can create an unpredictable dog and in a family / civilian environment that is dangerous.

For what you are suggesting, this sort of training will go a long way, but not the whole way. If you want a dog to attack on command, only take food from you (very important for guard dogs), poop in a bag and pull you away from danger, you are wanting it to behave way differently to its instincts and stronger training will be required. This goes into army / SAR / police dog training territory about which I know very little, only that beware when finding a trainer as there are loads of charlatans out there advertising this sort of training for domestic pets. If they offer a doggy boot camp BEWARE - you need training just as much as the dog, training has to be ongoing and for what you want daily. This will be very expensive and need a daily commitment from you.

You will never know how a dog will naturally respond to things until you try it, hence the large failure rate of working dogs. We had two Golden Retreivers, the larger bossy dog hid behind my legs when faced with an intruder in the back yard whilst the little timid one barked and snarled and looked generally scary - she scared the intruder off.

If you are going to look further into getting a dog, you are best getting a puppy so you can train it your way from an early age. Rescued dogs can be too unpredictable - you never know their full background (nurture). I have a rescue dog that I love to bits, but I never know how he will respond to new situations despite lots of training. Some thoughts on this;

- research the breed, some breeds will be better suited to your needs than others (nature). Maybe a gun dog like a Labrador Retriever (bred to accept loud noises, easy to train, loyal and eager to please) would suit you. They need a lot of loving too though!

- Research the breeder. The first 8 weeks of a puppy's life are the most important (nurture) and its vital that it is looked after properly in this time. They need to be well socialised and loved in this time or you can easily end up with a neurotic dog. They will wee on the floor and tear up your house. Don't buy from a pet shop or a newspaper ad, make sure you meet at least the mum and preferably both parents to judge their nature, and see the environment they are growing up in. If offered the puppy at 6 weeks walk away - they aren't a knowledgeable breeder - pups must have 8 weeks with their mum and litter mates. Don't get the one that walks straight up to you, they will probably be dominant and more difficult to train. Don't get the one hiding in the corner - too nervous for your needs. Get one that happily plays with its litter mates but doesn't shy away when you approach - well balanced.

- As you have such specific requirements, find a trainer before all this and discuss breed and training from day one

My dogs (and cats) will be both a benefit and a danger in survival situations. My two most likely survival scenarios are flood (I would sit tight as I am on a hill) or severe storm (I would evacuate as my house is not cyclone proof). They would be a benefit for sitting tight, providing entertainment, company, warmth and security (I always have extra supplies for them thanks to this forum). They would be a liability for an evacuation as they would not be allowed in evac centres (at least initially), would not be helped by the Sate Emergency Service (can't see me or my wife leaving them behind) and would add to the time it would take to safely evacuate. We also go camping with our dogs in the bush - they would be a liability there if anything went wrong due to the rescue boy's unpredictable nature and the old age of our other dog (but would provide warmth and a morale boost!).

I would suggest you look at your own survival needs, and get a shorter list of what you want a dog to do. All the things you have so far listed are possible (with the right dog and lots of training) but not all for one dog. A SAR dog won't make a good police dog, a guard dog won't make a good assistance dog etc. Think about your likely scenarios and prioritise.

Sorry for such a long first post, I have learned so much from this forum and it stood me right for the floods earlier this year, finally a subject comes up I think I can help on so there you have it.

Thanks for a great first post, KenOTBC! And welcome to ETS!

Thanks Phaedrus!

Ditto and welcome!

Hi and welcome.

-Eric

Dweste,

I'm not sure any particular expectation is unreasonable but the full set of expectations is pretty daunting. Finding a dog with the temperament, instincts and intelligence to meet those expectations would be like finding a preschooler with the potential to be an olympic or professional athlete. It can happen but the odds are against the dog you select having all those required attributes and then what are you going to do - return it, euthanize it, keep it and be disappointed?

The other part of the equation is you. The dog is a pack animal and you need to be the pack leader. That means you will need to invest a lot of time training and socializing with your dog. To even have a chance of meeting your expectations your dog will need to be fully integrated into your life. Since most jobs don't allow pets while working that means you will need to "make up for lost time" with a lot of your "free" time. Similarly your expectations mean you won't be able to "outsource" most of the training. You and your dog will essentially be on a training program equivalent to preparing for the Olympics to develop the skills an rapport needed. That is a tremendous time and energy commitment and like all skills these will require constant practice to keep in tune.

I grew up with dogs all around, my folks had them, my grandfather raised and trained german shepherd dogs and I have been blessed with four great dogs since getting a place of my own. I think, maybe, two or three out of all of these dogs would have been able to truly help, beyond providing companionship and a canine early warning system, in a survival situation. Not due to training (two were barely obedience trained) but due to their intelligence and loyalty to our pack (my family).

-Eric

Don't apologize; this is excellent. Welcome!