I saw this survival story today on CNN...

CNN: Pilot Survives 24 Hours in Subfreezing Weather OR

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/12/08/alaska.plane/index.html

Dan, you beat me to it... sounds like this guy was pretty fortunate. Really curious as to the nitty gritty details of the survival, coming out of the water soaking wet, in freezing weather, hiking to a cabin, for reasons unknown unable to create any heat...did he find dry clothes inside? Was there any food? Inquiring minds want to know. <img src="images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


Obviously several things had to go in his favor here. Nonetheless, I'm glad to hear that he survived.

Regards,
Comanche7

Yeah, this story is rather vague on details...it would be great to know a little more if anyone out there has heard more about this story, please post...

Knowing the little we know from the story, does anyone have any interest in discussing how this survivor could have been better prepared...what would you have done in his situation? How should you handle being immediately thrown into hypothermic conditions and directly into a survival situation? Any ideas or comments? What items could have been used from a "mini-kit" (Altoids size) and EDC, if these were the ONLY things he had access to... I think this could be an interesting discussion <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cautionary observation, while I feel the thirst for knowledge, it might be a bit wise to temper the thirst by considering that we really don't have many of the details of this incident. It could be that he is a member of ETS and had his Altoid Kit and a bunch of other stuff, but got to the cabin and was unable to find enough fuel for a fire (yeah, I know that it may be farfetched, but it could happen). Yes, I believe that we can learn from others successes and failures, just want to keep a perspective on the "Monday morning quarterbacking" .

Sure would like to believe that one of us would have had some serious FAK/PSK & cold weather precautions in place and worn on our person before taking off to begin with.

Getting warm & dry would be VERY high on the priority list in this scenario, communication would also be high on the list as well. Perhaps he found some food in the cabin.

The article stated something about he could not get his frozen shoes off of his feet. Hmmm, that could be a problem. My guess is that he was suffering / feeling some confusion from the cold as well.

This whole situation reminded me of Cody Lundin's Book, "98.6 Degrees - The Art Of Keeping Your Ass Alive"...this is good proof of his touting the "Basics" and "Keeping it Simple"...In this situation this person would most likley be lacking any complex-motor or fine-motor skills due to the cold and hypothermia and would have to rely on his gross-motor skills...everything would have to be kept very basic and easily accomplished using very little, if any, dexterity...if he was suffering or feeling any confusion that is another reason for honing very basic gross-motor survival skills (also good reason to hone and practice/train for "What if" situations). Basic Gear/Basic Skills...Maybe this survivor did the right thing...maintaining core body temperature and seeking shelter...???

Commanche7 - I agree about the "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" but it is mind-tickling to play the "What if" game...Thanks for the responses.

When you have the time (and the interactive server is back online) go to the yellow ETS banner above, and on the right hand side click on the drop down menu, select "INTERACTIVE FUN", there is a small interactive "what if" scenario that actually has a cold weather survival "test" of sorts. While not quite the "Dungeons and Dragons" interactive game quality, it does make one think. Someone obviously put in a bunch of time to make it work. If I knew enough about programming, I'd offer to help design a couple of other survival situations for us to kick around.

Now, off to email Doug in case he is unaware of that server being down, he is a pretty busy guy and it helps when we catch this stuff early and give him a heads up...of course, he may already be aware of it and it is just down for maintenance, however, better safe than sorry.

Comanche7

I would be very interested in knowing the basics of "Oh sh-t, this guy just crawled out of the woods in front of me, what do I need to do to take care of him and keep him alive."

I certainly wouldn't want to second-guess the pilot in question, especially without knowing more details about what happened. But I don't think ruminating about a hypothetical situation is a bad idea. Armchair QB'ing can be odious if it descends to the level of "That guy was a moron, I would have done this and this and that..." but as Peter Garrison pointed out in Flying magazine, the time to start thinking about thunderstorm avoidance is not when the sky is black and purple and your hands are full of airplane, it's when you're sipping hot chocolate in your air-conditioned living room, reading about some other poor b***d who flew into a thunderstorm.

Realistically, I think scrambling out of a submerged, inverted float plane in the Arctic, in winter, with the temperature close to or below freezing, is pretty much the worst-case scenario for survival, and kudos to this pilot for handling it as well as he did. Any electronic equipment (such as a cell-phone, handheld radio, or GPS) is likely to be waterlogged junk; any bulky survival equipment is at the bottom of the lake or river. Anything that's not in your pockets or around your neck can't be relied on.

I think there's going to be an unfortunate trade-off in this situation - you don't want to be wearing a bulky overcoat when the plane goes in the water, much less a backpack; so likely - assuming you get out of the plane and make it to shore - you won't have a lot of equipment. Being able to build a shelter and a fire quickly would probably be imperative. (If there's a known shelter nearby, as there was in this case, it makes sense to head towards it, but at those temperatures, even a walk of a mile through heavy snow and/or woods might be too much for someone who's lightly dressed, wet, and hypothermic. Maybe a couple of energy bars would help to stave off hypothermia, so I'd probably stuff a couple of those in an inside pocket.

Basically, what I'd want to have (and what I think I might realistically fit in my pockets):

SAS Survival Guide
Altoids PSK
Esbit Stove (or at least a couple of fuel tabs) to start a quick fire)
Space Blanket
Redundant means of starting a fire - mag-flint, Bic lighter, waterproof matches, WW2 flame-thrower ... <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Good quality knife to shave wood for kindling (feather-sticks)
Waterproof tinder (a small bottle of Purell Hand Sanitiser).
Handful of energy bars
Cord for erecting a windbreak or shelter
Wool clothing
Waterproof flashlight?

Take a First Aid course. Could be the the best investment you ever make. <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Have taken a number of them, thanks.
Just looking for additional input.

Try a Wilderness First Aid course or maybe an Advanced First Aid/EMR course.

If you have taken them and still have questions, please post the questions - as a First Aid/Wilderness First Aid instructor, I'm always interested in knowing what students feel is lacking in their instruction.

I can offer a little insite. Where the plane ended up in the water is approx 1/2 mile from the glacier that feeds it. Brrr. The cabin had no firewood or woodstove in it anymore(nor anything else). The survival gear went down in the plane. I am not sure but I don't believe he had any edc on him. We had approx 3 ft of snow recently so finding firewood is diifficult. He is really lucky. Hope that helps akraven in alaska

Hey akraven - thanks for the info...this is a good lesson on why you should always carry gear on your person .

This may be out of date thinking but the important things I remember for treating hypothermia are to rewarm slowly and keep the patient immobile. The thinking used to be (and may still be) that rapid warming or excessive movement will cause colder fluids to move from the extremities to the body core which can cause shock in addition to that already suffered. Is this still part of the modern drill?


Chris

Hey Chris,

In response to your post...this is a good site on hypothermia treatment.

www.hypothermia.org

"Hypothermia Prevention, Recognition and Treatment.
Articles, Protocols and Research on Life-saving skills."

I concur on your observations and thought I would share some random and lengthy views and experiences on cold weather survival and the basic ability to function in a cold environment. I am sure others on the forum have thoughts and experiences (military, hunting, winter sports, etc.) that would benefit us all, as we often brain storm and discuss what out PSKs and other equipment we carry would allow us to do and not do under various conditions.

Several years ago, 6 members of our team decided to take an adverse weather rescue-training course in Altoona, PA during the month of January. Keep in mind we were all experienced and had hundreds of hours of technical rescue training during daylight. In the early evening we had a couple of hours of “classroom” training centered around recognizing and treating hypothermia, dressing appropriately, mental conditioning and specific rescue techniques for cold weather environments. We then proceeded to the site, about a 1-hour drive; the temperature was around 10 F with winds steady at 15 mph and gusts approaching 25 mph. There was around 16-18 inches of snow on the ground and we were expecting and did receive additional snow and freezing rain. We arrived at the site around 10pm and started with some basic skills (knot trying, rappelling, self-rescue, etc.), which took about 2-21/2 hours, at least twice our normal time. We took a break and around 1am we started with rescue scenarios, all of which took at least twice our normal time. Our lighting did not function well in the cold, much of our equipment froze solid and several of the team were beginning to experience mild to moderate hypothermia. By dawn as we were completing our last scenario, we were making significant mistakes, arguing with each other and were completely worn out mentally and physically. The whole point up to that time was to take us to beyond our normal limits and stress us out to the point of mental and physical collapse, which the instructor achieved. We went back to our lodging and slept as much as biological clocks would allow, which in actuality was very little. We once a gain meet in the early evening to discuss the previous night’s experiences and what we could do to prevent a similar experience. Our discussions centered around using alternative equipment, such as replacing our chemical lights sticks which did not work well due to the cold, replacing alkaline batteries with lithium ones and having multiple backups, so we could rotate our lighting sources. Some of the guys went out and bought different clothing and we brought along some high-energy snacks. We also change our game plan, trying to keep on a rotational basis, at least 1 or 2 guys in reserve as much as possible, to have fresh minds and bodies to tackle various portion of the scenarios. Although the weather was not as severe the second night and therefore we were not stressed in quite the same way, we still felt all of the scenarios went much smoother. While I realize this was rescue training and not a pure survival situation, there are still parallels to be drawn between the two experiences. I do not believe a PSK in and of itself will be sufficient to allow you to survive for very long in very cold conditions. If venturing out in these conditions, you must take in to account the slowed thought processes and reduced physical functioning. In these situations, I would place high-energy foods/snacks high on the list. We have discussed many times the importance of layering and the proper selection of clothing materials; a search of previous threads of these discussions should be paramount this time of the year. Pete

Without meaning any slight to the individual involved in this storey it does bring us the opportunity to re-commit ourselves to having "stuff" in our pockets tightly enough waterproofed and attached that it will be there after we scramble to the shore and watch our plane drown. It is interesting to discuss what the most important items might be to have so attached and what features they would need to have in order to be most useful.

I would think that the priority order would be warmth then shelter then signaling. The warmth would not be lasting without shelter tho so Perhaps I have things backwards there? Anyway ....

My thoughts are;

1) Wool clothing

2) Good lighter

3) good water tight match safe with strike anywhere matches (hurricane matches are too difficult if my hands aren't shaking would be impossible if they were.)

4) fuel / tinder
vaseline soaked cotton balls at the bottom of that match safe might be good but difficult to retrieve
Some brandy in a hip-flask would be helpful if I burnt instead of drinking it.
Some gelled alcohol hand sanitizer would be great if I had some wood handy
Some ranger bands might be really handy

5) Ready shelter
Tarp
Garbage bag

6) Sharpened prybar type knife Something like a Kabar or a Mod4
could be used to dig a snow cave
could be used to harvest fuel from whatever wood was standing (if any)

7) tin-cup / tin-can of Dinty-moor stew
This provides a ready way to melt snow for water after you get the fire going and if you are carrying the can of stew you must be carrying your p38 on your key-chain.

8) block of bacon or fat-back or some other form of edible fat and a large chocolate bar. Chocolate bar for immediate energy and fat for lasting caloric value. A jar of nutella will serve both purposes.

9) -- Jump in here folks. This is not an attempt to criticize the individual involved but rather an exercise in thinking thru the scenario his experience illustrates.


Of course the dinty-moore stew and the jar of nutella will probably not fit in the pocket. The tin-cup is also difficult but could be fashioned out of tin-foil if you have a section of HD tin-foil in your PSK.

This individual found shelter and that is probably one of the critical elements to his survival. The shelter was made of wood and if he had had some hand sanitizer and a workable match he probably could have set the cabin ablaze. This would have provided signal and warmth. Of course it would have cost him his shelter - so not so bright an idea. Point is that with the cabin standing there it is not possible to argue that there was no fuel. (unless, of course, that cabin was made of stone).

BTW: AFAIK, hypothermia basics are 1) shelter from further exposure. 2) introduce warmth to the core through warm, moist air if possible and if the patient is lucid (still compensating) provide warm beverage in very small quantities. 3) monitor for shock. If ALS availabe hyperthermal IV may be tried depending upon local SOP.

To continue from Pete's post:

Like altitude, cold weather can sneak up on all of us who do not ordinarily spend most of our time in that environment daily. No one who spends most of their time at a lower altitude or in heated buildings in the winter is immune all the time. Some folks are more susceptable to misery and worse in cold weather than others (just like altitude sickness), but it can happen to anyone.

I saw first-hand over and over how badly those who spend most of their time out in the cold can under-estimate the effects of the cold on those who do not - I believe that I personally made some very bad judgement calls over the years, specifically in interior Alaska. Climitization to extreme cold is REAL; just as real as altitude climitization, and if someone says they are cold, believe them!

Fuzzy thinking is a symptom of stage one hypothermia. It is a short path from that to stage two and beyond. This is not theory for me, and I will always be grateful for the proper reactions of others who dragged my butt back from stage 2 on a few occasions years ago. We took care of each other. That's important, 'cause you're not gonna help yourself if you are at stage 2.

A day in the cold can be tolerated by most indoors folks who are not ill and otherwise reasonably well-dressed. Two days (with an intervening night) will invigorate some and start to sap others. At three days and beyond, life in the cold can be extremely debiliating for many of us indoor-dwellers. Sick and/or tired? Seek shelter... warm shelter.

Been a lot of caca circulated around about diet in the cold. Eat well; eat lots. Move fat up to a higher percentage (very high) if you want to feel well. And drink LOTS - dehydration preceeds lots of cold-weather malaise. Sip, sip, sip - it's hard to force yourself to slug down lots of icy cold water (and not at all good for you if you are verging on being chilled). A small water bottle slung under most of your outer layers, nearly next to your skin, stays at a pleasant-in-winter luke warm temperature. Frequent breaks for a small snack and a couple of mugs of warm liquid are extremely helpful. Urine color in the snow tells the truth.

I could go on... but my point is that any of us could be debiliated in cold weather for a variety of reasons - nothing to be worried about; just be prepared for it if/when it happens. Best to not be alone when that happens - it is tough to grind thru a spot like that for very long on your own, and another person can really make a huge difference in a myriad of ways.

All said, my most fond outdoors memories are the winter ones - and I have lots more of those memories to make, I hope <grin>.

Tom