Paul and neuronboy,

Hey, I don't disagree that a Muenter hitch is a neat thing to know. But here's where I stand on things like that: I've spent the vast majority of my life so far being responsible and accountable for other folks. I do/have done many things that I will not commend to others, because I cannot be there to be responsible for their safety.

If I personally was in a hurry to bail out, I would never bother with anything - I've done more hasty rappels than everything else put together, and that's still how I choose to walk down a steep or slippery slope (IF there is no drop-off). If I could keep my feet on a surface (vs hanging in free air), I would do a hasty rappel in an emergency. Give me a rope and I'm outa there (gloves would be nice, but hands heal). I've even done hasty rappels with a casualty tied onto me (now THAT will get your attention - can we say "rope burns"?).

But I will not suggest that anyone else do a hasty rappel, and I don't suggest that non-experts use a Muenter hitch. Rappeling is reputed to cause more injuries than any other recreational climbing activity, precisely because lots of folks enjoy it and some do not ever learn how to be safe doing it.

And experts make mistakes, too. We had a fatality two years ago at a favorite local climbing site. A young man got his shirt entangled in his rappel device. It so happened that a couple of professionals were arriving to practice vertical rescues about then, and they were asked by the group leader to assist. God knows why, but when the rescuer rappeled down to the young man, he cut him free. On the uphill side of the rope. Without first clipping the victim to himself. The young man fell and was killed instantly on impact.

I do not advocate the Muenter hitch for novices. If someone can afford a rope, they jolly well can afford a proper friction device. Tubes are cheap and even a Rescue 8 is cheaper than a rope. No need to get more complicated than that - racks are nice, but they are big, expensive, and... easy for a novice to make a mistake with. Simple and inexpensive and safe is best, IMHO. <shrug> Never hurts to know more knots and how to use them, and good for you that you know what the hitch is and how to use it to lower yourself.

But all that comes back to why I have the persepctive that I have. I did a lot of climbing with laid rope, Swiss seat (from a length of the same laid rope), steel oval non-locking 'biners, and nothing else (OK - crampons and pitons if needed).

I like the modern stuff a whole lot better because it's safer. Did I flush all the old ways from my brain? Heck, no! I can improvise all kinds of scary stuff with a rope and a few 'biners. But I'm darned careful who I teach that stuff to nowadays.

I'm not saying y'all are wrong, just trying to inject a note of caution. Having done so, I retire from the field <bow>.

Regards,

Tom

Well, I finished studying that knot pdf you posted and I must agree that the body rapel (I think that is what you are calling the hasty rapel) is preferrable. Seems that it is really easy to tell if you have the body rapel correct before you are swinging out over the edge and it is really easy to put the rope where you remember the rope burns from the last time. It might be a bit harder to remember this knot and as you pointed out one wrong twist in the tying and you are in free-fall with nothing to stop you. I also am interested in the issue with how hot that biner will get with different ropes. Body rapel is the first I learned and was actually preferred by my instructor as "perfectly adequate if you take your time and doesn't add to your gear weight. Don't know how many coats he went thru that way tho.... Seems this same fellow preferred down climbing rather than rapelling anyway.

I'm sure that the techniques preferred for mountaineering / climbing might be different than those preferred for rescue. There is a much greater urgency in the rescue and nowhere near the same passion for perfection of technique and love for the challenge. In rescue it is more important to get the victim out than to proove that you can handle a 20 foot overhang. When facing that sort of a challenge it is probably better in a rescue situation to rapel from the helo rather than to down-climb the overhang.

I have skimmed this post and I have yet to see anyone address the fact that repelling with rope this thin is VERY difficult. I have been repeling/climbing for years and I would have a hard time getting my hands aournd 3 or 5 mil rope. This gear is nice, but all I see a bloody line in my hand after the rop has cut through my glove!!

Just my two cents.

Garrett

I think that if you look at the device posted at the web site posted, it shows a rappel device, which I suspect, was designed specifically for the thinner rope. Although I have never used this particular device, I suspect there is substantial friction generated based upon the design, thus resulting in a controlled descent. It might also be possible to use a regular or rescue 8 by double or triple wrapping to increase the friction. Pete

Hey Folks, don't get me wrong about the munter-hitch. It was only recommended as an alternative to carrying the small micro belay device mentioned. If your PSK is small and you have to choose between a micro belay device and a map or compass or more first-aid and you don't even have a line or rope on you, carry your belay device in your head in the form of knowledge.

I use both the Reverso and Sheriff as my primary belay devices. They are in-line devices the don't twist the rope as it feeds through and accomodate double ropes of different thicknesses.

A note on double ropes of different thicknesses. If you are double rope rappelling, the thinner rope with move through the belay device faster so the knot connecting them at the anchor should be on the thin rope side of the anchor so the thin rope doesn't creep up on you leaving you short and facilitating a fall or stalling you a you encounter the knot you tied in the end of the thin rope before you encounter the end of the thick rope. You can fix this problem on rapel most of the time but an ounce of prevention,... yada yada yada.

Garrett, you can burn a nice hole in your glove with an 11mm rope as easily as 4mm titan spectra cord. The trick is to move at a speed you don't have this problem, or attach another biner to the leg loop of your harness and run the rope through that effectively reversing the direction of the belay end of the rope and adding more friction, or bringing the rope slightly behind you so that your jacket or pants take some of the friction and therefore the heat.

The question was raised earlier about rappel devices heating up. They do heat up- theoretically, hot enough to burn a nice divott in your rope or hand. It all depends on the character of the device, rope, and speed on your descent. Knowledge is the key.