Hi all. If you have to frequent tall buildings, have any of you concidered adding something like this to your kit...

Micro Rappel

I know I wouldn't like using it, being only a 5mm rope, but it seems like something that might 'save the day.'

You should read this thread
http://www.equipped.org/ubbthreads/showf...o=&vc=1 Many ideas about rappelling, parachuting, and other novel methods for escaping a highrise.

Ed

Oops! I should have checked a little further! I did search ETS on 'micro rappel' gear before I posted and nothing came up so I added the post.

No big deal.

Ed

Their website even shows a 3mm configuration. That's the "I'm dead anyway, so I have nothing to lose" option.

I suspect the idea is to use high tech cord like:

3mm New England Tech Cord

Rated at 3000lbs. Oh course I agree - it seems like this would still be best used only in case there is nothing better.

BTW, I didn't see anyplace to buy these critters online. You have a source?

Thanks,

-john

Just knowing how to do a munter-hitch is enough for most situations. Works well with a single-rope rapels and ok with double rope but you need to keep the biners slightly separated so the knots don't rub together. Munter-hitch will damage a rope after frequent use.

OK, so what's a munter-hitch, how is it tied, what characteristics are needed in the rope, how thin a rope will it work with, How stiff? How sliperry? how dynamic? Pictures and links if possible.

For example, would it work with slippery spectra cord? Woud it work with really stiff, static, thin, kevlar cord? Are these regular biners involved or is it possible to size them according to the cord?

I would not use the Muenter hitch if you are not already familiar with it. It is easy to make a mistake with the Muenter hitch and wind up with no friction - just a 'biner clipped onto the rope to direct your plumet down... If you climb, by all means, learn it. I used it almost exclusively for a long time - but I was not paying for the ropes and nowadays we have much better gear readily available and hopefully don't need to get caught out without a friction brake of some sort. I have at least a figure 8 and a tube on me at all times. Tubes are cheap and easy to use; a big 8 or a recue 8 is even better. The tube is probably the easiest to figure out and it is relatively small. A stitch plate is even smaller, but I'm not crazy about using a stitch plate for a rappel.

See page 2 of this page. This hitch is really hard on the rope - it runs on itself (study the picture). IIRC, spectra has a lower temp rating than nylon - fuses together at a lower temp and melts at a lower temp, so I don't think I would use it in spectra if I had a choice.

If the rope is large enough to rappel on, it is large enough for a Muenter hitch. But since it is very hard on the rope, a small diameter rope is going to have little or no margin of safety if you heat the 'biner up and then stop or even pause. My opinion is that only climers should consider using the Muenter hitch, although I believe it is favored by arborists.

I practice with it once or twice every outing to make sure I remember it well. I won't let students use it unless they are top roped.

My 2 cents.

Tom

One good thing about the muenter hitch in my eyes is that if the user is well practiced in the use of this it can come in very handy. With basically a rope, a carabiner, and some form of harness (could even be made from a piece of the rope if need be) one could as a last resort rescue themself if stuck on lets say the third floor of a building, or to give another person thier repelling equipment to get down from such a location, or even something as simple as going down a hill if too steep to walk down and there is nothing to grab on the way down. It can be a very usefull thing to learn, however carries much more risk. It could probibly even be used to send gear down if you have a (really) good belay person the bottom. <img src="images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Paul and neuronboy,

Hey, I don't disagree that a Muenter hitch is a neat thing to know. But here's where I stand on things like that: I've spent the vast majority of my life so far being responsible and accountable for other folks. I do/have done many things that I will not commend to others, because I cannot be there to be responsible for their safety.

If I personally was in a hurry to bail out, I would never bother with anything - I've done more hasty rappels than everything else put together, and that's still how I choose to walk down a steep or slippery slope (IF there is no drop-off). If I could keep my feet on a surface (vs hanging in free air), I would do a hasty rappel in an emergency. Give me a rope and I'm outa there (gloves would be nice, but hands heal). I've even done hasty rappels with a casualty tied onto me (now THAT will get your attention - can we say "rope burns"?).

But I will not suggest that anyone else do a hasty rappel, and I don't suggest that non-experts use a Muenter hitch. Rappeling is reputed to cause more injuries than any other recreational climbing activity, precisely because lots of folks enjoy it and some do not ever learn how to be safe doing it.

And experts make mistakes, too. We had a fatality two years ago at a favorite local climbing site. A young man got his shirt entangled in his rappel device. It so happened that a couple of professionals were arriving to practice vertical rescues about then, and they were asked by the group leader to assist. God knows why, but when the rescuer rappeled down to the young man, he cut him free. On the uphill side of the rope. Without first clipping the victim to himself. The young man fell and was killed instantly on impact.

I do not advocate the Muenter hitch for novices. If someone can afford a rope, they jolly well can afford a proper friction device. Tubes are cheap and even a Rescue 8 is cheaper than a rope. No need to get more complicated than that - racks are nice, but they are big, expensive, and... easy for a novice to make a mistake with. Simple and inexpensive and safe is best, IMHO. <shrug> Never hurts to know more knots and how to use them, and good for you that you know what the hitch is and how to use it to lower yourself.

But all that comes back to why I have the persepctive that I have. I did a lot of climbing with laid rope, Swiss seat (from a length of the same laid rope), steel oval non-locking 'biners, and nothing else (OK - crampons and pitons if needed).

I like the modern stuff a whole lot better because it's safer. Did I flush all the old ways from my brain? Heck, no! I can improvise all kinds of scary stuff with a rope and a few 'biners. But I'm darned careful who I teach that stuff to nowadays.

I'm not saying y'all are wrong, just trying to inject a note of caution. Having done so, I retire from the field <bow>.

Regards,

Tom

Well, I finished studying that knot pdf you posted and I must agree that the body rapel (I think that is what you are calling the hasty rapel) is preferrable. Seems that it is really easy to tell if you have the body rapel correct before you are swinging out over the edge and it is really easy to put the rope where you remember the rope burns from the last time. It might be a bit harder to remember this knot and as you pointed out one wrong twist in the tying and you are in free-fall with nothing to stop you. I also am interested in the issue with how hot that biner will get with different ropes. Body rapel is the first I learned and was actually preferred by my instructor as "perfectly adequate if you take your time and doesn't add to your gear weight. Don't know how many coats he went thru that way tho.... Seems this same fellow preferred down climbing rather than rapelling anyway.

I'm sure that the techniques preferred for mountaineering / climbing might be different than those preferred for rescue. There is a much greater urgency in the rescue and nowhere near the same passion for perfection of technique and love for the challenge. In rescue it is more important to get the victim out than to proove that you can handle a 20 foot overhang. When facing that sort of a challenge it is probably better in a rescue situation to rapel from the helo rather than to down-climb the overhang.

I have skimmed this post and I have yet to see anyone address the fact that repelling with rope this thin is VERY difficult. I have been repeling/climbing for years and I would have a hard time getting my hands aournd 3 or 5 mil rope. This gear is nice, but all I see a bloody line in my hand after the rop has cut through my glove!!

Just my two cents.

Garrett

I think that if you look at the device posted at the web site posted, it shows a rappel device, which I suspect, was designed specifically for the thinner rope. Although I have never used this particular device, I suspect there is substantial friction generated based upon the design, thus resulting in a controlled descent. It might also be possible to use a regular or rescue 8 by double or triple wrapping to increase the friction. Pete

Hey Folks, don't get me wrong about the munter-hitch. It was only recommended as an alternative to carrying the small micro belay device mentioned. If your PSK is small and you have to choose between a micro belay device and a map or compass or more first-aid and you don't even have a line or rope on you, carry your belay device in your head in the form of knowledge.

I use both the Reverso and Sheriff as my primary belay devices. They are in-line devices the don't twist the rope as it feeds through and accomodate double ropes of different thicknesses.

A note on double ropes of different thicknesses. If you are double rope rappelling, the thinner rope with move through the belay device faster so the knot connecting them at the anchor should be on the thin rope side of the anchor so the thin rope doesn't creep up on you leaving you short and facilitating a fall or stalling you a you encounter the knot you tied in the end of the thin rope before you encounter the end of the thick rope. You can fix this problem on rapel most of the time but an ounce of prevention,... yada yada yada.

Garrett, you can burn a nice hole in your glove with an 11mm rope as easily as 4mm titan spectra cord. The trick is to move at a speed you don't have this problem, or attach another biner to the leg loop of your harness and run the rope through that effectively reversing the direction of the belay end of the rope and adding more friction, or bringing the rope slightly behind you so that your jacket or pants take some of the friction and therefore the heat.

The question was raised earlier about rappel devices heating up. They do heat up- theoretically, hot enough to burn a nice divott in your rope or hand. It all depends on the character of the device, rope, and speed on your descent. Knowledge is the key.