Hi
My apologies if I suggested anything negative about survivalists. My point is that this isn't a survivalist forum, and to start talking about long term survival issues, rather than short term, extends the scope of this forum beyond the borders of this forum (or so I thought - I stand to be corrected)
I am not condeming anyone. I have looked into the subject myself, and I too am considering a larger food store.
However I still think there is a diference in the definition when I call my self "prepared", rather than a" survivalist". One is not necessarily better than the other, more prehaps a difference in timescale.
martin

Like others have posted, start small and build. I recommend you start with a 72 hour kit for home. Once you have that squared away. Then build your food storage program. Search the web for $5 a week program. Basically the idea is to spend $5 a week to buy a couple extra cans, some grains, etc. The program indicates which foods and amounts to buy each week. The key is to buy a mixture of products each week so that you all ways have some that is nearing expiration, some that is half-life, and some that is new. It also provides a balanced diet as opposed to 100lbs of rice but no veggies, fruits, protiens, dairy, fats, spices, etc.

Gradually you build your storage over time. The big thing to remember about food storage is, ROTATE, ROTATE, ROTATE. That is accomplished by the mantra, Store what you eat, eat what you store.

Below are a few websites to provide additional information about longer term survival or preparedness vs. short term emergency.

http://www.survival-center.com/index.htm Captain Dave’s Survival Center
Good primer on what to store as well as vendor of supplies

http://millennium-ark.net/News_Files/Hollys.html Noah’s Ark Emergency Preparedness Extensive information about what and why.

http://www.pep-c.org/homepage/ Peninsula Emergency Preparedness Committee
More 72 kit oriented.

http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/misc/disaster/famlykit.htm FEMA Family Disaster Kit Good ideas for the basic 72 hour kit.

http://www.emergencylifeline.com/IEindex.html Emergency Lifeline Supplies
This site is a vendor of supplies that might be useful to have for emergencies.

http://pub35.ezboard.com/bplainsmanscabin.html? Plainsman Cabin
Discussion about longer term planning both wilderness and urban/suburban.

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi Frugal’s Forum
Discussions. General discussion can be caustic and political. Other forums are more equpiment and planning.

Here I go again with my two cents worth,

Back in '98, I was one of those folks that thought " What if... concerning Y2K ( please don't laugh too hard ), so I started on the food question by taking over the grocery shopping. When i went to the store(s), I would check out the sale/special items and buy 5 or 10 dollars extra of things that we would normally use anyway. These items were dated and sealed ( if neccesary ) and stashed away on shelves in the basement and used in rotation with any thing new coming into the house. By New Years Eve 1999, I had about 8 months ( with-out fortifying with wild game, weeds and other scrounged goods ) worth of food. When the "Balloon didn't go up", my family and I ate quite well and quite cheaply for some time. As it turned out, I'm glad I "bit"... in November 1999, I was laid off due to plant closure. The "doomsday stock" carried us through very nicely untill I once again became gainfully employed. Other supplies have since been used/donated to a good cause, or rotated through normal usage. Do I still maintain a buffer against hard times? YOU BET!!

You don't always know from what direction the bullet's coming.

Troy

Martin:

I definitely think you may be on the right track. I've read all the usual paranoid garabage espoused by the 'militia' survivalist camp, and I too have come to the conclusion that living on the run is very likely impossible, especially if you have young children.

Bugging out may be an appropriate response if you are facing a limited-term, localized emergency. The obvious emergencies are natural disasters such as hurricanes, inner city civil unrest, and, unfortunately, September 11 type incidents. In some of the cases you may well have to pack up and leave for a week or so. And in these cases, you should have access to food, medicines and supplies in other areas.

However, there does exist the possibility of longer-lasting, more wide-spread incidents. The first that comes to mind is infact the infamous ice storm in the North East. Areas here were without power for six weeks... I'm sure you can invision other longer term scenarios. If you experience a long term incident, I seriously doubt you can transport all you need for an extended period of time. A significant stock of supplies kept in your home may well be the best option.

I favour the home option for several reasons: It's warmer and more weather-proof than any tent or shelter I can construct. I know my home area better than others. I can store greater amounts of food and supplies. I have more tools and equipment. In short, I can eat better, drink more clean water, take care of illnesses, and generally be more secure at home than trotting through the woods. (The one obvious exception may be large urban apartment dwellers. I'm in rural NY).

I tend to view "survival" as a wholistic concept. It's a lifestyle, not a particular piece of equipement. And having 5 years worth of dehydrated cabbage flakes does you no good if the bank repossesses your home because you are in default. Ideally then, any survival plan considers day-to-day economic reality. Get your financial house in order. Reduce or eliminate debt. Save enough money to cover an extended stretch of unemployment or illness. These issues are more likely to create a real difficulty than any storm, riot or earthquake...

Once your finances are in order I would suggest you forget the mail-order survival stockpile route. It is expensive, and most of that stuff is not particularly useful. The simpliest and least expensive approach is an incremental one: Start buying larger quantities of food you actually eat, supplimented with reasonable amounts of specialty items.

I simply wait for grocery items to come on sale. Instead of buying 2 or 3, I buy 12 or 20. I do this each week, and the cost impact is minimal. I may actually save money this way: I never run out of something and have to buy it at full retail. I stockpile the obvious: canned fruits and veggies, flour, rice, soups, beans, peanut butter, pasta, spagetti sauce, toilet paper, OTC medicines, batteries, matches, you name it.

This stockpile is supplimented in a couple of ways: I do have a very limited supply of more portable food and supplies. I consider this a short-term bug out kit.

It would be extremely difficult to lock yourself away and live solely and exclusively off stockpiled supplies for any extended period of time. I recomment you find ways to suppliment supplies with food you can grow or barter for. In my case a modest home garden lowers my weekly food bill, and provides excellent fresh veggies I eat immediately or can for future. I'm a hobby beekeeper, and barter away a significant amount of honey for other "stuff". And the local deer population provides my with 100-150lbs of venison each Fall.

I would recomment you reconsider the generator requirement. I have a generator, and consider it fine for short term (few days to perhaps a month) incidents. It runs my furnace, well pump, lights and refrigerator. However, the operation of a generator for extended period s is unlikely: Generator and fuel costs, and fuel storage issues make this difficult.

Instead of investing tens of thousands in large generators, tanks and fuel, I recommend you consider "alternative" systems. Install a decent wood stove, and set aside a few cords of good hardwood and a decent chainsaw (and buck saw). This low-tech approach can reduce your regular monthly heating bill, and can serve as a primary heat source for long periods at a far lower cost than generated electricity. Purchase a few such tools (Oil lamps, hand tools, a tiller, pressure canner, canning jars, etc).

The beauty of my approach is its low cost and practicality. I never spend extravigant amounts on exotic items. I buy "real" food, not dehyrdated clery sticks. I get real everyday use out of my reasonably price equipment instead of having ten grand tied up in a huge generator and fuel tank. My wood stove is not a primary heat source, but it does supplement my furnace during cold snaps. The only expensive purely survival items I own are an AR-15.

For what it's worth, I conservatively estimate that I could completely forgo the grocery store for 6 to 8 months, and could live comfortably. I will miss certain foods, and I'm sure a more basic diet would become a little tiresome, but I'll not be scrambling for food. And all my supplies would fit comfortably in a large closet.

My approach is simple: Buy more than you need, when its on sale. Buy 'storable' items like canned goods, dry goods, rice, peanut butter, oil, toilet paper, diapers, whatever. Suppliement it the means to produce food (do not count on wild game. It will disapper in short order), and to store food. And add a limited amount of specialized "survival" gear: A few 5 gallong water jugs, a wood stove, a few oil lamps, some garden tools, a decent firearm or two).

An above all means, tend to your very real and enverday survival. Eliminate debt, stach a modest contingency fund, and the like.

It works for me. The Mrs and I could loose our jobs today, and with a little belt tightening (cancelling the insurance on the snowmobile, cancelling the cell phone, and not doing restaurants) we could get by financially for about the next two years. A six week power failure would mean little inconvenience (no internet surfing. Big deal). And a six month to year long economic disruption means I eat a basic but otherwise very healthy diet, cooked on a wood stove, until I can triple the size of the back yard garden...

Frozenny

From the front page of this site we have this definition of the focus of this site. It is authored by Doug Ritter the owner of the site and clearly defines the focus and topic of the site.

That having been said, the discussions in this forum seem to have wandered over the entire spectrum and as long as they remain close to topic, polite and reasonably a-political there hasn't been much problem with this issue before on this forum. Chris and Doug will step in if things get too far from topics that they want discussed on their site or (more commonly) if the discussion becomes uncomfortably hot.

From the above document is clear that the main focus of the site, including but not limited to this forum, is the short term scenario following accident, emergency, or other incident that temporarily removes us from the security of the our reliance on society. Rulled out are discussions of TEOTWAKI and long term social collapse. In between the 72 hour blackout and total social disintegration lies a huge grey area which may be reasonably discussed or ruled out at the discretion of the administrators. I have personally lived through blackouts which lasted longer than 72 hours and I would consider discussing preparing for them to be within the range of topics allowable in this forum (tho Chris may correct me on that at his leisure). Hurricane Andrew survivors didn't get back to life-as-usual for more than a year in some cases though the basic infrastructure was restored within a few months. Again preparing for that is much more long-term than the 72 hr kit and somewhat less than the TEOTWAKI scenarios. I (personally) think that a discussion of laying up a store of water and food for scenarios longer than 72 hrs isn't too far off topic and needn't bring in the connotations of and disscussions of socio-political collapse while discussing how to survive a night of rioting in an urban setting that you may be living in is well within the parameters of 72 hr emergency survival and to discuss that you may necessarily get into socio-political questions and discussions vis gun ownership, etc.

Martin,

I second David's reccomendation about BMH and the anthologies. I have their Emergency Preparedness Guide. It's good, but as a longtime subscriber, and owner of all the anthologies, I was dissappointed by how little new material is in it. It is mostly a compilation of articles that BMH has already published on the subject. Having most of it in one little book is convient, though. BMH is a good resource for people interested in self-reliance, although personally, I think the magazine's quality has slumped lately.


Frozenny,

Loved your post. External validation of the way I've been redirecting my lifestyle is awesome. Thanks.


Take care,

Andy