So, much of this forum has to do with unusual situations involving outdoor adventures - canoe trips gone bad, hunting trips and so on. There's the ever popular "plane ditching" scenarios, and of course the "Ice Storm In Canada That Knocked The Power Out For Weeks"

There's also a smattering of silly "suburban survival" stories (such as when I once posted here about my 2 yr. old son and I having a mishap involving diarreah, a shopping mall and 5,280 feet to the car & a change of clothes).

But I have a serious question about equipped/preparedness that might be best answered by any Mormons on the list. The practice of equipping the home with a year's worth of supplies is well-reported practice of those of the Mormon faith, and now I'm beginning to see that I'm getting into the same mind-set about equipping the home.

What has set me off was a story in the news about a "pandemic" of the flu being all but "inevitable" which would most certainly be a situation where you'd want to stay home, out of contact with others, and able to keep your family fed, warm and safe.

I've become convinced that there's no real way to "bug out" in the event of a serious emergency - on the east coast there's no where to bug out TO and the roads are overwhelmed on an average day. "Bugging Out" is just not a realistic plan anymore.

So while it's fun to build kits for life "on the road" my interest is shifting towards building a home environment that's fully self-supporting for at least 3 months, but more like a year. This has forced me to reconsider my generator (currently gas powered, should be Diesel, since I can run it and heat off of the same tank), my water (I have 300,000 gallons in a pond & a 600' deep well) and most of all, food. We don't have much room for storage. So any advice on building a "Mormon Style" stockpile would be appreciated.

There's lots of good info at www.waltonfeed.com

You also might want to check out "Nuclear War Survival Skills" by Cresson Kearny. He has a whole section on food storage that is based on the Mormon "basic 4"

Also see if you can get "Passport to Survival" by Esther Dickey or the updated version, "New Passport to Suvival" by Dickey and Rita Bingham. Either one is an excellent primer on food storage and self sufficiency based on Mormon philosophy

You can also get in touch with the local LDS ward (that would be a Mormon church) and ask for some help/info/guidance. They're generally pretty helpful, or they were prior to Y2K anyway.

Hope this helps,
Ed

Martin,

I'm not Mormon, but I've played one on TV......just kidding. I did, however, live in Utah for a total of about 4 1/2 years and knew/know many Mormon families. Not all of them are that prepared. Some cannot afford to be, some simply chose not to. Also, while many are prepared to some degree or another, they all indicated that they are also counting on community support from other church members, and at least some support directly from the church. This is not intended to, nor can it be, all inclusive of Mormons everywhere, but from what I understood this is pretty common.

I have a small book entitled "How To Be Prepared" written by Roland Page. Mr. Page is a Mormon (actually I think "Latter Day Saint" is the preferred term now) and wrote the book for Mormons. In it, he addresses many of the things you are wondering about. It is dated (circa 1973), but much, if not most, of the info is still pertinent. PM me and I'll let you borrow it. If nothing else, the lists of things you need are valuable and enlightening. When you're done with it, post it on the Lending Library forum, and anyone else who wants to take a look can have a go.

I would also reccomend a book entitled "Bad Times Primer" by C.G. Cobb. It has a decidedly survivalist slant to it, but is one of the better treatments of the subject that I have seen. Unfortunately, I do not have a copy to lend you.

Take care,

Andy

Rocky mountain survival group is a treasur trove for long term survival information. Every thing from stockpiles for hunkering down to organic farming and composting toilets. Most of the information is just that technical information on how to ... Of course there are also the articles on political issues and even religious issues but if you simply want to know what to stockpile, where to get it, grow it, keep it running they are an invaluable resource.

Martin, I would like to clarify something here. The Latter Day Saint church, or Mormons do indeed suggest having the full years supply of foodstuffs, water, clothing and the like. But, in the last decade or so, there was made a recommendation to stock a 72 hour kit as recommended by authorities and then work into a 3 month supply and then a 6 month and so on and so on. This recommendation was based upon actual past experiences of church members who had tried to use a full years supply and finding out too late what they thought would carry them for a full year was actually a 3 months supply. More emphasis is placed on just being prepared and building a supply slowly and within your budget.

There is no magic list of what to stock, only you can do that by following some guidelines and staying within your desired goal. If space is a problem, then you need to consider a different length of time. I would make an excellant recommendation for any “kit” or storage program to rotate your supplies. Canned goods spoil, medicines perish and well you get the idea. I know of some who have stored wheat for over 20 years, though I do not recall anyone doing anything with it. Talk about very stale, yuck! You will find several good books on the subject of storage on the LDS church bookstore website www.deseretbook.com, click on the store then books, then click on preparedness. You will see a listing for over 16 titles.

Now for a little history on this matter, beginning with Brigham Young in the earliest days of the church the members were encouraged to be self-reliant and prepared for any event. Perhaps the best example of a “bug-out” situation is the early Mormons, fleeing persecution, left Illinois for Utah. Brigham Young actually devised a “survival list” (which I have a copy) of requirements for the journey, which includes items such as firearms, tools, foodstuffs, cloth, etc. Today the emphasis is on a self-reliant lifestyle. No mention of economic collapse type scenarios but prepared for any emergency, including loss of the primary income. Hunkering down or bugging in as some call it is a good way to be self reliant if you prepare for it.

The water is a good start, but what preparations have you made to pump water in the event the pond is contaminated? For the generator, unless it is good sized, then stay with gasoline, otherwise consider propane. Propane provides electricity, will heat the home and provide a source for cooking. Propane is less polluting and much more efficient. Make a list, involve your family and work from there. The pamphlets published through FEMA and the Red Cross give good solid basic guidelines for 72 hour kits, home preparations and what to do in an emergency.

A book to consider is The Secure Home by Joel Skousen. It discusses not only laying in supplies, but the other aspects of self-reliance, such as alternative heating systems, alternative energy, etc.

You can get the book from Mr. Skousen's webpage.

In some segments, the book has an anti-government slant, but I believe the other information is worthwhile.

~Wesley

I'd suggest James Talmadge Stevens' book, Making the Best of Basics, and more importantly, Backwoods Home magazine and web page. The web site is a great place to find information. Also, their bookstore is the best I've found for self-reliant living.

Be sure to check out the BHM anthologies--they're essentially a year's worth of the articles in the magazine, sans advertising, in a soft-bound book (some are also available on CD-ROM).

They also have a specific Emergency Preparedness guide that's pretty good, from what I hear.

David

hi there
From what I've gathered about this forum we are primarily looking for short term solutions to short term problems. Going down the route of storing large quantities of food, then maybe having to fortify your house in order to protect that food smacks more of the survivalist mentality. The question we all have to ask ourselves is what our definition of "being prepared" is, and how that differs, in purely preparedness terms, to our definition of a "survivalist"
However.... I can recommend a book, as linked below. It has some excellent adivice, but a liking for all things soya is a must <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
http://tinyurl.com/xrfq

martin

The term "survivalist" was originally coined by Kurt Saxon. His definition is someone who is simply prepared to survive. Think farmer vs. factory worker in a depression era setting. The farmer can provide for his family, the factory worker is on hard times. Saxon has little use for the Rambo-wannabe militia types. Some of his politics and views are admittedly out of the mainstream (as is his right) but his basic survivalist philosophy is not much different than what we talk about here or most church teachings - be prepared to take care of you and yours and help others to the best of your abilities in times of illness, economic hardship, or disaster (natural or manmade). Whether you feel your needs are covered by a 72 hour BOB or a year's supply in the basement is up to you. Either way, by definition, you are a survivalist.

Your level of fortification might be a deadbolt and alarm system or window bars, Rottweilers and a 12 ga. pumpgun. Either way, I happen to believe that I am justified in protecting myself, my loved ones, and my property. Some on this forum agree with that point of view, others don't. It's a personal choice that we each must make and live with.

To start branding people as survivalists in the negative, media buzzword context for simply discussing a slightly different level of preparedness is, IMHO, unjustified.

Just my $.02

Ed

thanks for the input. Yeah, it's a bit "end of the world as we know it" I go through this from time to time.

As far as economic hard times, well, been there, done that. In 2003, I made 10% of what I made in 2000, the year we bough our first house. We're not in any danger of loosing the house, my kids are fed & clothed and we want for nothing, so that's good.

My "self-reliance" urge is based mostly on reading too much, I think. Not only that, I see how poorly prepared people are to deal with adveristy when I respond to rescue calls or "special service" calls where people - 9 times out of 10 - got into a situation that just a small bit of preplanning would have prevented. That 1 in 10 call, where everything goes wrong, is actually the one I'm worrying about - the situation where things really DO get out of hand on a large scale.

Stuff like the flu epidemic, bio-warfare. Most times, I'm not thinking about it. But some nights...well, what the hell would i DO if there really was a bio-attack? I live 60 miles from NYC, and many people here commute to NYC to work, it's not like we're not in a "safe zone" you know?

Anyway, the "hunker down" urge waxes and wanes, it's just particularly strong this week.

Hi
My apologies if I suggested anything negative about survivalists. My point is that this isn't a survivalist forum, and to start talking about long term survival issues, rather than short term, extends the scope of this forum beyond the borders of this forum (or so I thought - I stand to be corrected)
I am not condeming anyone. I have looked into the subject myself, and I too am considering a larger food store.
However I still think there is a diference in the definition when I call my self "prepared", rather than a" survivalist". One is not necessarily better than the other, more prehaps a difference in timescale.
martin

Like others have posted, start small and build. I recommend you start with a 72 hour kit for home. Once you have that squared away. Then build your food storage program. Search the web for $5 a week program. Basically the idea is to spend $5 a week to buy a couple extra cans, some grains, etc. The program indicates which foods and amounts to buy each week. The key is to buy a mixture of products each week so that you all ways have some that is nearing expiration, some that is half-life, and some that is new. It also provides a balanced diet as opposed to 100lbs of rice but no veggies, fruits, protiens, dairy, fats, spices, etc.

Gradually you build your storage over time. The big thing to remember about food storage is, ROTATE, ROTATE, ROTATE. That is accomplished by the mantra, Store what you eat, eat what you store.

Below are a few websites to provide additional information about longer term survival or preparedness vs. short term emergency.

http://www.survival-center.com/index.htm Captain Dave’s Survival Center
Good primer on what to store as well as vendor of supplies

http://millennium-ark.net/News_Files/Hollys.html Noah’s Ark Emergency Preparedness Extensive information about what and why.

http://www.pep-c.org/homepage/ Peninsula Emergency Preparedness Committee
More 72 kit oriented.

http://www.pueblo.gsa.gov/cic_text/misc/disaster/famlykit.htm FEMA Family Disaster Kit Good ideas for the basic 72 hour kit.

http://www.emergencylifeline.com/IEindex.html Emergency Lifeline Supplies
This site is a vendor of supplies that might be useful to have for emergencies.

http://pub35.ezboard.com/bplainsmanscabin.html? Plainsman Cabin
Discussion about longer term planning both wilderness and urban/suburban.

http://www.frugalsquirrels.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi Frugal’s Forum
Discussions. General discussion can be caustic and political. Other forums are more equpiment and planning.

Here I go again with my two cents worth,

Back in '98, I was one of those folks that thought " What if... concerning Y2K ( please don't laugh too hard ), so I started on the food question by taking over the grocery shopping. When i went to the store(s), I would check out the sale/special items and buy 5 or 10 dollars extra of things that we would normally use anyway. These items were dated and sealed ( if neccesary ) and stashed away on shelves in the basement and used in rotation with any thing new coming into the house. By New Years Eve 1999, I had about 8 months ( with-out fortifying with wild game, weeds and other scrounged goods ) worth of food. When the "Balloon didn't go up", my family and I ate quite well and quite cheaply for some time. As it turned out, I'm glad I "bit"... in November 1999, I was laid off due to plant closure. The "doomsday stock" carried us through very nicely untill I once again became gainfully employed. Other supplies have since been used/donated to a good cause, or rotated through normal usage. Do I still maintain a buffer against hard times? YOU BET!!

You don't always know from what direction the bullet's coming.

Troy

Martin:

I definitely think you may be on the right track. I've read all the usual paranoid garabage espoused by the 'militia' survivalist camp, and I too have come to the conclusion that living on the run is very likely impossible, especially if you have young children.

Bugging out may be an appropriate response if you are facing a limited-term, localized emergency. The obvious emergencies are natural disasters such as hurricanes, inner city civil unrest, and, unfortunately, September 11 type incidents. In some of the cases you may well have to pack up and leave for a week or so. And in these cases, you should have access to food, medicines and supplies in other areas.

However, there does exist the possibility of longer-lasting, more wide-spread incidents. The first that comes to mind is infact the infamous ice storm in the North East. Areas here were without power for six weeks... I'm sure you can invision other longer term scenarios. If you experience a long term incident, I seriously doubt you can transport all you need for an extended period of time. A significant stock of supplies kept in your home may well be the best option.

I favour the home option for several reasons: It's warmer and more weather-proof than any tent or shelter I can construct. I know my home area better than others. I can store greater amounts of food and supplies. I have more tools and equipment. In short, I can eat better, drink more clean water, take care of illnesses, and generally be more secure at home than trotting through the woods. (The one obvious exception may be large urban apartment dwellers. I'm in rural NY).

I tend to view "survival" as a wholistic concept. It's a lifestyle, not a particular piece of equipement. And having 5 years worth of dehydrated cabbage flakes does you no good if the bank repossesses your home because you are in default. Ideally then, any survival plan considers day-to-day economic reality. Get your financial house in order. Reduce or eliminate debt. Save enough money to cover an extended stretch of unemployment or illness. These issues are more likely to create a real difficulty than any storm, riot or earthquake...

Once your finances are in order I would suggest you forget the mail-order survival stockpile route. It is expensive, and most of that stuff is not particularly useful. The simpliest and least expensive approach is an incremental one: Start buying larger quantities of food you actually eat, supplimented with reasonable amounts of specialty items.

I simply wait for grocery items to come on sale. Instead of buying 2 or 3, I buy 12 or 20. I do this each week, and the cost impact is minimal. I may actually save money this way: I never run out of something and have to buy it at full retail. I stockpile the obvious: canned fruits and veggies, flour, rice, soups, beans, peanut butter, pasta, spagetti sauce, toilet paper, OTC medicines, batteries, matches, you name it.

This stockpile is supplimented in a couple of ways: I do have a very limited supply of more portable food and supplies. I consider this a short-term bug out kit.

It would be extremely difficult to lock yourself away and live solely and exclusively off stockpiled supplies for any extended period of time. I recomment you find ways to suppliment supplies with food you can grow or barter for. In my case a modest home garden lowers my weekly food bill, and provides excellent fresh veggies I eat immediately or can for future. I'm a hobby beekeeper, and barter away a significant amount of honey for other "stuff". And the local deer population provides my with 100-150lbs of venison each Fall.

I would recomment you reconsider the generator requirement. I have a generator, and consider it fine for short term (few days to perhaps a month) incidents. It runs my furnace, well pump, lights and refrigerator. However, the operation of a generator for extended period s is unlikely: Generator and fuel costs, and fuel storage issues make this difficult.

Instead of investing tens of thousands in large generators, tanks and fuel, I recommend you consider "alternative" systems. Install a decent wood stove, and set aside a few cords of good hardwood and a decent chainsaw (and buck saw). This low-tech approach can reduce your regular monthly heating bill, and can serve as a primary heat source for long periods at a far lower cost than generated electricity. Purchase a few such tools (Oil lamps, hand tools, a tiller, pressure canner, canning jars, etc).

The beauty of my approach is its low cost and practicality. I never spend extravigant amounts on exotic items. I buy "real" food, not dehyrdated clery sticks. I get real everyday use out of my reasonably price equipment instead of having ten grand tied up in a huge generator and fuel tank. My wood stove is not a primary heat source, but it does supplement my furnace during cold snaps. The only expensive purely survival items I own are an AR-15.

For what it's worth, I conservatively estimate that I could completely forgo the grocery store for 6 to 8 months, and could live comfortably. I will miss certain foods, and I'm sure a more basic diet would become a little tiresome, but I'll not be scrambling for food. And all my supplies would fit comfortably in a large closet.

My approach is simple: Buy more than you need, when its on sale. Buy 'storable' items like canned goods, dry goods, rice, peanut butter, oil, toilet paper, diapers, whatever. Suppliement it the means to produce food (do not count on wild game. It will disapper in short order), and to store food. And add a limited amount of specialized "survival" gear: A few 5 gallong water jugs, a wood stove, a few oil lamps, some garden tools, a decent firearm or two).

An above all means, tend to your very real and enverday survival. Eliminate debt, stach a modest contingency fund, and the like.

It works for me. The Mrs and I could loose our jobs today, and with a little belt tightening (cancelling the insurance on the snowmobile, cancelling the cell phone, and not doing restaurants) we could get by financially for about the next two years. A six week power failure would mean little inconvenience (no internet surfing. Big deal). And a six month to year long economic disruption means I eat a basic but otherwise very healthy diet, cooked on a wood stove, until I can triple the size of the back yard garden...

Frozenny

From the front page of this site we have this definition of the focus of this site. It is authored by Doug Ritter the owner of the site and clearly defines the focus and topic of the site.

That having been said, the discussions in this forum seem to have wandered over the entire spectrum and as long as they remain close to topic, polite and reasonably a-political there hasn't been much problem with this issue before on this forum. Chris and Doug will step in if things get too far from topics that they want discussed on their site or (more commonly) if the discussion becomes uncomfortably hot.

From the above document is clear that the main focus of the site, including but not limited to this forum, is the short term scenario following accident, emergency, or other incident that temporarily removes us from the security of the our reliance on society. Rulled out are discussions of TEOTWAKI and long term social collapse. In between the 72 hour blackout and total social disintegration lies a huge grey area which may be reasonably discussed or ruled out at the discretion of the administrators. I have personally lived through blackouts which lasted longer than 72 hours and I would consider discussing preparing for them to be within the range of topics allowable in this forum (tho Chris may correct me on that at his leisure). Hurricane Andrew survivors didn't get back to life-as-usual for more than a year in some cases though the basic infrastructure was restored within a few months. Again preparing for that is much more long-term than the 72 hr kit and somewhat less than the TEOTWAKI scenarios. I (personally) think that a discussion of laying up a store of water and food for scenarios longer than 72 hrs isn't too far off topic and needn't bring in the connotations of and disscussions of socio-political collapse while discussing how to survive a night of rioting in an urban setting that you may be living in is well within the parameters of 72 hr emergency survival and to discuss that you may necessarily get into socio-political questions and discussions vis gun ownership, etc.

Martin,

I second David's reccomendation about BMH and the anthologies. I have their Emergency Preparedness Guide. It's good, but as a longtime subscriber, and owner of all the anthologies, I was dissappointed by how little new material is in it. It is mostly a compilation of articles that BMH has already published on the subject. Having most of it in one little book is convient, though. BMH is a good resource for people interested in self-reliance, although personally, I think the magazine's quality has slumped lately.


Frozenny,

Loved your post. External validation of the way I've been redirecting my lifestyle is awesome. Thanks.


Take care,

Andy