OK, before I get burned at the stake (on a fire started with a firesteel ), I do carry firestarting kit and understand what a fire can do to help my situation in a crisis.

BUT - thinking about my most likely survival situations, the likelihood is that I will be injured, or night is falling or similar. At which point instant shelter is more useful and acheivable than a fire. Crawling into a survival bag in a shelter spot is more doable than trying to find enough firewood to get a decent fire fed. And in some regions (grassland, mountains etc) trees are not abundant so I just wont have that option - sit on a mountainside in Wales with a twisted ankle and show me how you would build a worthwhile fire.

I'm not saying don't carry firestarting kit, but I would issue a challenge to those who don't carry shelter (garbage bag, poncho, space blanket etc) as to whether they think in a real crisis they could get a fire and a debris shelter together readily?

There aren't any of those.
Its a false dilemma.
Why would an equipped person (reader of this forum), go without shelter?
Knowing how to make debris shelter, good idea.
Planing to use debris shelter instead of bringing shelter, bad idea.
Preparing to fail just doesn't make sense

Absolutely yes. My experience, both my own bad nights and those of others whom I have helped rescue, is that a fire, along with some sort of improvised or carried shelter, is critical to survival. I have also seen the opposite, where three young lads tried to light a fire, were unable to do so, and subsequently perished.

You must consider this question in relation to the wide variety of environments available. There are certainly situations where a fire would not be necessary. For that matter, there are occasions where a fire would be ill advised (think very dry forests with high fire danger).

In an environment where fuel is not readily available, like above timberline, carry a lightweight stove and fuel. Relative to the benefit, it isn't that heavy.

Carrying a bivy bag and firestarters can add only ounces to your load. Why would you not? What is the benefit of leaving vital gear behind?

I quite agree with bigreddog. When I was an ardent young chap, the mantra was protection, location, water, food - and fire was acknowledged to be important for all of them and especially the first two. But that was a general principle. As for Wales, or any of the remote areas in the UK, lighting a fire is not going to be a priority, simply because of the lack of fuel. That's why the advice to those going into those areas has always been to carry wet weather gear and supplementary warm clothing. I wouldn't argue with a tommy cooker for a hot drink, but I think a whistle is a higher priority.

You have to tailor your plans - and your kit - to the likely survival environment.

Yes indeed. The differences in vegetation, weather, and terrain between Wales and some of the wilder tracts in the western US are considerable

One thing to keep in mind is that, shelter doesn't really create heat. It only acts as insulation for the heat you already produce. If you aren't producing a lot of heat (say, you're slightly hypothermic and under-nourished, which is typical of someone forced to survive outdoors), you are going to have a lot of difficulty producing the heat necessary to get warm (at least in the short term).

Fire, on the other hand, is an outside heat source. It doesn't rely on your own body temperature to warm you up. Besides that, it's a great morale booster, it provides light, it's a good signal method, it often helps to keep away critters, it can make water safe to drink, and..through the magic of cooking....it lets you make certain foods safe to eat and significantly more palatable.

-----------
One a side note: A lot of people consider a knife to be the #1 most important survival tool, but I actually think a fire-starting method is my #1 most important item (followed by a good metal pot/pan/cup). I mean, a reasonably sharp edge is typically pretty easy to find in nature....a broken rock can be used to cut cordage, skin game, carve wood, ect...if need be. I can usually make some sort of shelter without a knife, no problem. However, making fire without already being equipped with fire starting equipment, tends to be a real pain in the behind. When you're cold, wet, and hungry is not the time to be expending energy trying to get a bow-drill or fire-saw working.

I do need firestarter... Or not, I don't know. So I carry one, just in case...

A knife may or may not be the #1 most important survival tool based on your location and circumstances, but I think it is certainly the #1 most versatile survival tool. A good knife can add significantly to your ability to make a fire and a shelter, among other important survival tasks.

While it changes based on where I go and what terrain and circumstances I expect to face, my Most Important Gear List always has knife, fire, flashlight, whistle, and signal mirror on it. Fire making is where I have the most redundancy.

Kudos to bigreddog for raising this - I'm VERY skeptical about the utility of a fire in most situations. The number one problem (not mentioned) is opsec - do you think our special ops troops on a three day mission are building fires? Of course not - flame gives away your position in the dark, and smoke gives away your position during the day. Fires require time to gather fuel (most people DRASTICALLY underestimate the amount of fuel consumed by a small fire in one day) and they are terrible for security. I think the reason why we focus on fires is because we like them.

I guess you are marching to a different drummer. Most of us are considering civilian survival situations, not combat conditions. The disadvantages in combat are huge pluses in normal life and in "normal" survival situations, where a fire fire simultaneously signals your location, warms your body and your food, and raises your morale. What's wrong with that?

I can't think of a single instance in my SAR experience where people who built a fire did not pull through, and there are several where people did not, although there was no good reason why they could not have, and subsequently died.

Fire is life.

My minimum fire starting kit is a tiny ferrocerium rod with a length of about 1 1/2" and a diameter of about an 1/8". Even the luxurious version with a magnesium bar has enough place on a dollar coin. Pocket lint or paper handkerchiefs serve as tinder (or to blow the nose if required). It just does not take enough space to even consider leaving it behind. That´s also the case with a small BIC and a film canister of matches.
I wont take your challenge. A space blanket is part of the FAK and can double as shelter. It´s in my EDC even for urban environment. Those items just do not take enough space and effort to think about leaving them and not have them when you need them.
Preparedness is a lifestyle. When you live it, you have a different view on carrying emergency supplies. When asked to select "either a or b", the answer frequently is "both".

I'm a civilian. I have no OPSEC concerns -- rather the contrary. If I'm in a survival situation, I want to be found.



Don't underestimate the positive power of morale. If calm is the only thing that fire provides (besides warmth, visibility, water disinfection, and cooking) then it's worthwhile just for that in many situations.

Fire starting kit is tiny and weighs very little even if its just a box of matches or a lighter, yet can potentially provide so much for so little carry weight. Starting fires in good weather is a doddle, it gets much more difficult in difficult weather conditions such as heavy rain, snow and windy conditions where trees find it difficult to become established such as above the tree line, so shelter and insulation become a priority, i.e. a good sleeping bag and bivvy, basha or tent. This is also why lightweight cooking stove systems exist and are commercially available.

Fire starting is not always needed; but it is both cheap and light -- Why not carry some?

Yes.

Fire = heat, light, rescue signal, water purification, cooking.

So much good from so little (match, Bic, firesteel). That's why I have firestarters in every pack, vehicles, home, office, purse, wallet.

The year is 2011. We obviously don't need fire starters anymore...duh!

I would venture a guess that most of us who consider fire starting items essential live in or near wooded areas that are also subject to drops in temperature (myself included, and YES, I do consider fire starting items essential kit items). I also consider shelter items essential for the kit as well, and place it's priority just slightly above the fire starting items. All that said, your scenario where there is no wood or other fuel available has given me quite a bit to think about.

In situations where fire is not possible or not advisable, I have to agree with others about bringing along a stove with fuel, and would also suggest including some of the various hand warmers available if there is room. These can be activated and placed in strategic spots (like under the armpits) to keep you warm.

BTW, welcome to the forums Vasco.

I say to this that the Number system within the survival community is bunk. To Consider one thing the most important or to line things up in order of importance is giving reason to not carry things lower on the list and or Further romanticizing the survive with 1-3 things lifestyle I believe most of us here frown upon (could be wrong sorry). If you are preparing why not prepare to the fullest extent of your abilities? Learn how to Survive without and prepare to survive with. With all that yes I believe in carrying a Firesteel but no I do not think about EDCing one during everyday life. In the woods a Firesteel will be on me nomatter what other methods of firestarting I have or Know how to improvise. As for every Day life I EDC A lighter.

Wales will kill every bit as dead as "some of wilder tracts in the western USA".

Why: Because Wales has killer combination of:
1) Heavy cold rain.
2) Cold wind.
3) No shelter.
Classic three strikes and your dead territory.

A firelighting kit is simply a waste of space.

Proper clothing, bivvy bag, kip mat and chemical handwarmer packs.

the idea of a survival kit is to carry everything--everything you might need--that everything might be in small amounts but everything.

I agree with the majority. It's light weight and, in my part of the world, can be invaluable in so many ways.

Are you thinking about certain fire starters that are relatively large? In a pinch, I could fit a highly dependable fire starter underneath the band on my watch. For example...
http://firesteel.com/products/FireSteel-Miniature.html

With that tiny rod and my other equipment I would have with me, I can start a fire in a wide variety of conditions. Without any planned fire starter means, I doubt I would be able to start a fire in a variety of conditions.

Is everybody here doing a fully informed cost/benefit analysis?

I Love Firesteel.com Firesteels I own like 10 pups from them. They are extremely cost effective being 1$ ONE...DOLLAR... Its amazing how people consider to not carry one at the price and size of these things.

Ditto - I've got their Firesteels spread out all over - home, car, packs, purse, wallet.

Firesteels, matches and BIC lighters are cheap, and lightweight, insurance.

Do you actually believe that rain, wind, and lack of shelter are unique to Wales? I can show you plenty of all three over here in the colonies and in locations that are much further from roads and other civilized amenities than anything in GB. Think Gila Wilderness, Bob Marshall Wilderness, Grand Canyon to name a few. Within all of these areas there are spots where natural fuels can be sparse, especially in the winter. It is then a good idea to carry some sort of stove and fuel, whose total weight can be surprisingly light and well worth it.

Proper clothing and appropriate sheltering material make sense wherever and whenever one goes out to play.

My comment about differences had more to do with the evident lack of fuel in Wales, an area with which I am, regrettably not familiar. On my one trip to Great Britain, I stopped briefly in the Lake District and in Glencoe. It was during an absolutely wonderful late summer and I have never experienced the storms for which those regions are justly famous for, but bad weather is bad weather the world over. I suspect there must be a difference in land use ethics between the Wild West and Merrie Old England. I could well imagine you can't just simply sit down, pull the branches off a tree, and light a bonfire... Correct?

I am afraid I would still consider carrying my fire items, all of which fit easily in the palm of my hand and weigh maybe 2-3 oz. Even more likely I would have my stove and the ability to brew up that all important Nice Cup of Tea. my British roots are still evident......

Watch the hypothermia segment of this season's premire of Bear's show and remember that an ounce of prevention is worth a tonne of cure, and that every weapon in your arsenal might help in the fight. Carry both.

Heat sheet, AMK bivvy, mylar blanket, poncho... lots of lighweight, small space, inexpensive opitions for shelter.

Firesteel, lighter, matches, sparklight, cotton balls, quick tinder, dryer lint, esbit tabs, candles ... lots of lighweight, small space, inexpensive opitions for fire.

Its kind of embarrassing, but I didn't used to carry a method of starting a fire on a regular basis until I saw the movie Cast Away, and that got me to thinking how tough it would be to start a file without any extra gear, how easy it would be to carry a tiny Boy Scout Hotspark ferro rod.

In my mind its kind of silly not to carry at least something since making fire with natural materials is so tough for most of us.

BTW, here I'm talking about getting the "spark", not so much about carrying material that lights easily ... which would be a great idea if outdoors (camping, backpacking, ...).

We all make our own decisions as to what our priorities to carry are. I tend to agree with those who feel fire starting tools/materials are so light and inexpensive, I won't go anywhere without them.

Perhaps one other point to consider is just as knife can help you make other tools such as a long spear, bow, help provide shelter, etc. , I feel that fire can also become another tools itself and that help boost its priority for me.

Plus it gives me great comfort when I out for a night to have a fire going, and we always hear that attitude is a big factor in survival. So, that said, go with what makes you most comfortable.

my $0.02

buckeye

Do we need firestarters?

In some places, and some times, they can be essential. In others times and places they are a redundancy whose burden is in proportion to the weight/bulk that goes unused. But offset by the odds you may not have a complete understanding of the time and situation.

An acquaintance who hikes the desert SW carried something for years, I forget what it was. The areas he hiked were alive with tinder. Then one year there was a freak storm that came in and the desert got heavy rain for a couple of days and all that bone dry tinder was soaking wet. It was a once in a century event.

That said the center of logs and certain waxy plants are immune to anything buy long term immersion. A few grams of starter made it easier but it wasn't he was stuck without it.

I don't spend much time in the woods any more. In the suburban/rural environment in this part of Florida tinder is not in short supply.

Good shelter and a fire together, along with some food and water, are man's best friends. A small butane lighter is a very reliable fire starter. Not exactly primitive, but compact and effective :-)

Pete #2

In a Land that knows Alcohol,& For many Millenium at that,I would think one wouldn't venture far without some,besides how would one read the survival manual,written in Welsh without a decent dose of Single Malt in the first place?I haven't tried it but,I'll bet biscuits(crackers) with marmite will burn for quite some time,& Probably Very hot,as well!:)

It doesn't matter what else you carry, why would you not carry a source of fire??? You wouldn't even notice the weight difference between carrying it and not carrying it.

"Most likely survival situations"... do you mind if I laugh just a little? No? Then may I just grin?

Getting into a survival situation is because you miscalculated somewhere, made a mistake and multiplied it, or from pure bad luck. You're never thinking, "Today is a good day to get myself into trouble", are you? Or do you plan your personal disasters so you know precisely what gear to have on hand?

Fire isn't just heat, fire is signaling. So you fall in an area that has nothing to offer but grass and rocks, and you've dropped your fancy cell phone into the same rock crevice your broken foot is caught in. You told both the wife and the girlfriend when you would be back, so they both call the authorities when you don't show up. People are looking for you.

You find some dry grass and twist it together and make a knot. You hear that heavy whump-whump-whump of chopper. So you set your grass knot afire with the lighter you brought along accidentally. A helicopter crew with night-vision ability can see that fire from more than a mile away. Another hiker might see a fire where there isn't supposed to be a fire.

Neither your bivy, your water bottle or your broken cell phone will get you out of that bad spot, but a fire might.

Dying of exposure seems like a pretty silly way to die just because you didn't feel the need to carry a small piece of kit.

We've had quite a few hikers here in the U.S. who like to travel light. Some of them are dead.

"Miscalculation is a nasty word."

Sue

In your kit, leaving out something as lightweight and small as firemaking materials is just plain stupid IMHO. You don't think you'll need it? Well, that describes EVERYTHING in my survival kit. I never expect to need ANY of it. If I actually need it someday, that means I screwed up or fell prey to some accident or unpredicatable circumstance.

I don't understand the argument. I think the OP was trolling. This is not an either/or situation. Given the size and weight penalty of carrying a pack of matches, mini lighter or a ferro rod, there's no justification for not carrying one or more fire-starting devices.

As for the lack of suitable materials for sustaining a fire in Wales, I have to admit to no firsthand experience. But I did find this BBC article on an ongoing forest fire in Wales, in which there appeared to be no lack of burnable material.

Even if there were no dry wood, a large pile of grass would still make a great signal fire, albeit short lived.

Not trolling, just looking to provoke some discussion. The forest fire you refer to is on dry ground in woodland. No proiblem starting a fire there, but there are still lots of places when it is wetter and more desolate where a fire would be very tricky.

I just wanted to bring across the point that sometimes a firestarter isn't as useful as shelter and while everyone carries firestarters in their PSK or edc, shelter is rarer.

I don't suggest the ounce or 2 for a firestarter isn't worth it - but it doesn't replace the need for shelter.

Thanks for the contributions guys and gals

Fire and shelter go together like ham and eggs (or fish and chips). Frequently you cannot sustain a fire unless you have reasonable shelter.

However, I have far more frequently encountered suitable natural shelters, ready for occupancy, than I have found nice campfires -leaving aside those conflagrations to which I was responding in order to extinguish.

The better natural shelters are far superior to any tent or even most cabins.

No I am talking about an enviroment in which substaining a fire is not possible because fuel for sustaining a fire is either absent or unusable - as in too wet to burn.

I agree. For example, the Tahoe Region had a big snow year.
50 FEET of snow in some areas.
Wood may be meters under snow. We teach the fourth graders
a survival class each year, and they are instructed to always
bring a trash bag and a whistle in their coat pockets
whenever skiing or hiking. Those items do some good in deep
snow, high wind conditions for a 9 year old. A lighter or
such can be a distraction from really getting shelter and taking care of oneself. Not to mention the possibility
of misuse of knives, lighters etc. by the immature ones in the
group.

That being said, I have a ferro rod on my key ring and my 9 year old has both a pocket knife and bic lighter in his daypack.

For areas that do not have wood fuel, items such as a Esbit stove and Temperd 9 hour candles can come in great use. When building a Snow only based shelter they provide heat inside to not only warm you up but to melt the ceiling and when put out refreeze the ceiling to a tougher ice barrier to support the snow more.

I agree completely. I also routinely carry about 650 grams (almost 1.5 pounds) of emergency bivouac shelter virtually anytime I go off the asphalt. If I have a daypack or similar with me, the shelter goes with me.

What's good for 9-year-olds is a different subject as far as I'm concerned.

I snowboard regularly in Tahoe. From my observation, there's no shortage of firewood at any of the resorts I have visited (about 10), even in the dead of winter. It should be possible to make a fire from a live, or preferably a dead standing, redwood tree. There are plenty.

My gear while I'm riding includes at least a firestarter, 100 feet of 550 paracord, a whistle, a pocket knife and a small flashlight. I don't bring along a trash bag because I figure the tech of my shells will cancel out the usefulness of the trash bag. Maybe I'll consider it though because a trash bag basically weighs nothing.

You might be glad to have a trash bag to give to someone else or improve a shelter.

I hike alone frequently and where I go in winter is quite limited in terms of fire-sustaining materials. I could build a grassfire but it would be on its way quickly.

I think in terms of injury and needing to survive without full mobility or body function. Such injuries might preclude travelling far enough to get wood for a fire or being able to construct much of a shelter.

So my gear set for hiking has materials so I can insulate myself and roll up into a large poncho while setting out my rescue beacon and hunter orange materials.

I still have fire starting stuff (3 ways) because it's good to have options and it doesn't weight much. But the injury-while-solo scenario for me suggests fire starting isn't necessarily the primary thing to concentrate on.

"It Depends."

"What's good for 9-year-olds is a different subject as far as I'm concerned.

I snowboard regularly in Tahoe. From my observation, there's no shortage of firewood at any of the resorts I have visited (about 10), even in the dead of winter. It should be possible to make a fire from a live, or preferably a dead standing, redwood tree. There are plenty.

My gear while I'm riding includes at least a firestarter, 100 feet of 550 paracord, a whistle, a pocket knife and a small flashlight. I don't bring along a trash bag because I figure the tech of my snowboard shell will cancel out the usefulness of the trash bag. Maybe I'll consider it though because a trash bag basically weighs nothing. [/quote]

----

Without shelter, you won't be building a fire in many cases.

Wait till you get stuck in a whiteout on Tinkers Knob with 100 mile an hour plus winds and mixed snow and rain.

Or ride off the backside of Alpine into
powder so deep you can't walk through it without skis with skins or snow shoes.

Many years both these things happen to people.
If they are smart, they build a shelter and signal for searchers. Sometimes they can build a fire, most can't.

I do remember a pair of snowmobilers that managed a fire
by soaking their underwear in gas and using that for a
starter.

----

You will have a long walk to start a fire with Redwood Trees,
say across the central valley.

I'm not questioning the need for shelter. Nobody on this thread is as far as I recall. In contrast, some here are questioning the need for fire. That's the issue.

I know many people here are binary thinkers, and that's good sometimes. However, here's not the place. Shelter is necessary most times. Fire is necessary sometimes. Both fire and shelter are necessary sometimes. It's not a binary solution.

Regarding Tahoe, whatever you want to call the trees in Tahoe, there are lots of them. It may require higher skill to start a fire with them in the winter, but it would be possible. It's a different situation than having no fuel at all.

Thanks all! I love these debates! The reminders I'm taking from this thread are, in no particular order (binary thinking!):

1. To take a shelter I can count on.

I. To not count on being able to make a fire.

A. The dress appropriately for all possible weather conditions.

And, as every good Scout knows, to always plan ahead and think safety first.

I think there is one other important lesson. If the weather looks formidable, either snowy or rainy, etc. just throw in a stove of some sort - fire problems are solved.

Dependable stoves can be obtained at whatever price you wish to pay, ranging from do it yourself Pepsi can stoves (cost is mere pennies) up to units costing $200 plus. All work well ad will accomplish the basics. As a backpacker, I am concerned about weight. None of my stoves, with fuel, weigh more than about eight ounces.

Before I used stoves, as an impoverished college student I got pretty good at building campfires in marginal conditions. That skill is now rusty, because I more typically use a stove, even in good weather. Stoves are more convenient, safer, and generally are better for the environment.

I built my last campfire about six years ago. If I build another, it is a pretty good bet that I am in trouble.

I built my last campfire yesterday and I wasn't in trouble, and if you bring along some bacon'n'bugers and a grill you could have really tasty meal (sure beats an MRE)
Baked tatties taste better than boiled.

It certainly takes a little more effort than firing up a gas stove though. Splitting and chopping washed up tree branches with a big knife and preparing feather sticks is hard work.

I Dont know whats going on in the big picture of things there Am_Fear. But did you take that picture after the wake of a beaverpocolypse?

Exactly. Even stranded on an ice floe ( http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=101 ) you can use your firesteel alone as signaling device at night when helicopters with night vision equipment are looking for you.
It's not just firestarter, it's also another light emitting bateryless device in your arsenal.

A Pair of leather gloves a leather banded slingshot and some embers and you got a flare gun =D

LOL!!! Great idea. We're making slingshots at our all-section Scout camp next weekend. Another good excuse, but one I won't suggest to the youth.

They May very well replace their nerf guns with this idea so yeah I wouldnt either.

Lesson learned anyway, Frisket.

Over the protests of the Scouts, the Cubs discovered the cool effect of flying coals when one of them started poking the fire when his marshmallow stick. Apparently he thought I was "ruining all the fun!" when I made him stop. Then I got to be an ogre when I explained the meaning of the word "irony" when he got hit with a burning coal after he slammed his stick into the fire in protest.