Season premier of Dual Survival. Dave and Cody, lost in Tierra del Feugo. Scenario, black powder hunters, one with lacerated arm, lost in the weeds.

Dave proceeds to cut his own arm, I am talking a gash. Then Cody cauterizes it with gunpowder. Twice. "That's gonna leave a mark!"

Ok, harkening back to when Les pretended to have a broken arm, I think simulating an injury is fine. I think this crap, and that's what it was, tv audience getting crap, was over the top. What, the historical evidence of cautery is not enough? Give me a break.

I've lost all respect for these two bozos. Cody has excellent books, even he said he didn't endorse what Dave was going to do, but he let him do it. Inaction is failure to take action, epic fail.

Reckon I won't be wasting any time watching those two anymore.

I agree with you completely, and I have better ways to waste my time than watching these alleged survival shows.

Sounds like Dave and Cody have been watching too many 'SAS Survival Skills' videos on the Youtube.

Episode 1 - Survival Stresses

Episode 2 - Hunting - Demonstration of the UK MOD classified SF hunting tractor beam.

Episode 3 - Axe

Wow! I haven't seen that one yet and I'm not sure I want to now. Sounds like a dumb "look how tough I am" stunt and that's not why I watch. They often agree to disagree, and I can respect that most of time, but they usually show sound survival strategies and decisions.

This sounds like a stupid human trick. Dave's always been the question mark in that show for me. He seems bound and determined to show the polar opposite of Cody's "bush hippie crap."

Unfortunately manliness, ruggedness, and bravery are most commonly associated with stupidity. It doesn't have to be that way IMO, but this is how it is.

Now Art, that is a pretty general statement. What do you mean by those terms? If manliness equals what I call machismo, bravery is the equivalent of bravado, and ruggedness is insensitivity, I would tend to agree with you.


However, I was just reading about the conclusion of a week long search at Grand Teton NP for two missing ski tourers. They located a signal from their avalanche beacons Saturday night and spend today digging down to their bodies and completing the extrication. I am not acquainted with the specifics, but there was certainly an element of risk in this operation.

A hell of a way to spend Easter, in any event.

Incidentally, evidently the helicopter pilot in this operation was female. Manliness and bravery are not limited to males. There is good clinical evidence that women can stand pain better men. The only parameter in which guys excel is heavy lifting.

The only parameter in which guys excel is heavy lifting.

and breakin' stuff

No, D.C is making a point: Which is that you can choose to take the pain and live. Or refuse and die.

It's easy just to tell people. Actually being prepared to demonstrate takes a lot more commitment.

This is very true, although guys can also urinate whilst standing up.

Heavy lifting does form the basis of advanced civilisations.

http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=222187

I can't imagine that there were any girls in charge whilst the boys were chiseling out this obelisk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfinished_obelisk

Yes I know that the boys ended up breaking this one but as they say you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

The reality is that in 6000 years of recorded civilisation there are only a very few notable female names in that historical record.

Leigh - There's a fine line between hardcore and stupid.

If Dave was attempting to show us that cautery works and can be done with blackpowder, he's about 500 years late. Cautery has been used for centuries, it's an historical fact.

OK, I am out in the weeds, I cut myself, and I am bleeding. I am not going to cauterize the wound, I will use a dressing and direct pressure to stop the bleeding. Hell, I think I would use a tourniquet before cautery. Why inflict a second (and in Dave's case, a 3d) wound on the original?

I say again that Dave's stunt was for ratings. It was stupid to begin with, got dumber, then passed into sheer moronic. And no, I don't for one second believe that he didn't get some first aid from the everpresent crew paramedic.

Just watched Dave (off his rocker) Canterbury here;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LFGE7rGUkA

Even Rambo when he fell out his tree, had more smarts...

I would have to agree with you. It was stupid to begin with, got dumber, then passed into sheer moronic.

I guess thats why in most FAKs we have butterfly sutures, suture needles, thread or even super glue, field dressings, alcohol wipes and antibiotics or even heamostatic clotting agents such as Celox.

What could be interesting would be if someone decides to copy this 'hardcore' demonstration and instead of using black powder decides to bite the bullet of a 308 round and then begins to pour.

Possibly that is because guys were in charge of writing said historical record. Bear in mind that the "historical record" is hardly an unbiased account of significant events - a whole lot of important stuff is neglected or minimized.

I just watched the full clip on the Discovery site here:

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/dual-survival-season-2-episode-3-videos

I didn't have sound so I may have missed something. I admit that my mind closed at the site of him voluntarily cutting himself. Doesn't seem like a wise choice to me, especially by guys that are supposed to be showing us what TO do.

When I get past that, I'm left wondering: given the resources they had available, what were the other options to close up/protect a wound like that?

I guess DC is just working off the Army axiom, Tell, Show, Do. Everyone does the Tell, DC just gave us the Show, I think I'll let a doctor Do after I have assessed my wound, tried to stop bleeding/fix break, then see if I can move myself before hitting the SOS function on my SPOT2.

Hey even Bear doesn't intentionally cut or harm himself, though both Bear and Les have done cold immersion for their shows.

Field-expedient cautery should be a last resort. Watching just the clip (thanks Jaclyn), they had plenty of bandage material and could easily have used one hand for direct pressure. This was grade-A foolishness and may very well end my interest in the show.



Irrigate the wound thoroughly if enough clean water is available. Make a bandage out of a couple of cloth strips. Use direct pressure to stop the bleeding.

In the short term if you can stop the bleeding with direct pressure, hopefully you'll be rescued and get to definitive care before any potential infection lays you low. From what I saw, Dave wasn't bleeding very much.

No arguments from me on that one
Mind you, it should bring home the point that you always carry a decent first aid kit.
One that includes the means to irrigate and sterilise the wound.

Operative word there is "hope."
A small wound may prove to be as lethal as a major injury under those circumstances.

"The reality is that in 6000 years of recorded civilisation there are only a very few notable female names in that historical record."

The women were supervising the jobs to get them right, and just used rough labor for the job: oxen and men.

As for cauterizing, why would some dolt use gunpowder when they could just heat up a piece of metal and use that?

The only real use for gunpowder cauterization is when your idiot BIL has an ear ache.

The more I hear about TV, the happier I am that I don't have it.

Sue

True. However, I'd rather irrigate than cauterize for infection control. If irrigation isn't a viable option and rescue is likely within a few days, I'd only use cautery if that was the only way to stop the bleeding.

In everything I have read or been taught about management of wounds in a wilderness setting, cauterization has never so much as been mentioned. But then those authors or instructors were not concerned with TV ratings.

It is one thing to produce a vivid, fast paced, entertaining show, and it is quite something else to promote distinctly bad practices.

Yes, you did. Dave gave a reasonable advice: "Don´t do it."


Those guys are supposed to give a good show. Do not confuse that with showing what to do. Unfortunately each season has to be more spectacular than the one before. So expect the techniques to get less useful.


The wound was so shallow that it would not even require a suture (I´ve actually taken a cut like that from slipping with a straight razor). They had trouble to KEEP it bleeding. It will usually stop bleeding by itself in a couple of minutes - almost immediately if you apply a little pressure). Applying direct pressure is the proper way to deal with even more severe wounds.
The cauterizing by applying a generous amount of heat is supposed to cause plenty of dead tissue with an elevated risk of infection and long term damage. The original wound might not have left a scar - the burn probably will.
Apart from that it does not seem feasible at all.

• start the fire before getting injured - otherwise the uncontrolled bleeding might kill the injured before you get your chance to do so
• even with the small wound the powder got to wet to light - a live threating wound might well soak all of their gunpowder
  
• the pain from the burn may well cause a shock and generate a life threatening situation by itself

I would really recommend you to attend a first aid course. It´s worth it´s money just for the confidence it gives you for dealing with medical emergencies. If you successfully apply the skills only once it´ll be priceless.

I haven't seen the show but I can guarantee that they haven't shown their viewers one of the most important survival skills around out in the wilderness - how to use a map and compass.



Plus the fact that 3M Steri-strips, Celox, Commercial FAKs, etc.. are somewhat easier to find and purchase than black powder.

Any reality show is all about entertainment and ratings. The fact that the show is the subject of a thread here proves they succeeded. These entertainers do know what they're doing if entertainment and ratings is their goal. Heck, I want to watch the show to see why I don't want to watch it.

From my observation, the common theme for a successful "reality" show is drama. The drama can be real or totally fake. It doesn't matter, just as long as there's drama.

Related issue, I believe the entertainment industry is nearly recession-proof. People will pay their cable bill before they pay for proper health insurance. If I could be a youngster again, I'd base my career in the entertainment industry from the beginning. I could get paid for having fun, making up drama and not thinking too much!

I am bothered by it. I also know they don't have the freedom to tell producers to put their head in a bucket of water the way Stroud did.

They get another chance. Even if I've always thought Lundin's "always barefoot" thing was kinda nutty. I understand the logic, but traditional mocassins give you 90% the feel, and infinantly more protection than just your feet.

A little light reading on the role and history of cauterization:

http://www.scientiacuriosa.com/early-surgery-cautery-how-to-boil-a-puppy/

I think that's the most asinine stunt I've ever seen this side of Jackass. It's appalling that Cody would have anything to do with it. Cutting yourself in a survival situation so you can experiment with gunpowder cauterization...well, even Bear isn't that stupid. Congrats, D.C.- you've sunk to a new low for reality TV.

NOt everyone agrees with the near unanimous verdict being expressed in this thread.

http://youtu.be/LL3FaY4fV-I

After reading 98.6* a few years back, I ran into Cody in an REI in Tempe, just shopping like the rest of us. Really nice dude, had a great chat in the aisle. Yes he was barefoot.

How does he cross Arizona asphalt in the summer?

As for the topic, don't forget that this is a Discovery Channel production. It's all about ratings.

For everybody getting pissed off with the TV show, watch this video, get even more pissed off and then go workout. You may put up a personal best in the gym.

I finally saw the entire episode and found it to be pretty good. But I still think it's idiotic to do what he did.

I met the guy once, so I can't speak for him, but having read his stuff and followed him on his website, and now on Facebook and Discovery, he has been barefoot for years and has built up a very thick pad of callused skin on his feet. I have also seen this with pacific islanders.

In fact I would guess with the additional thickening and toughening of the bottom of his feet that it would be quite uncomfortable to where normal footwear.

My 2 cents.

I’ve only seen the Discovery clip, not the entire show, but it does look crazy.

Every show has something which we can learn, perhaps the lesson here is to add a Favourites links for the Darwin Award Nominations ?

A more serious way of looking at it is to remember that from time to time we do have responsibility to act to save people from themselves, even if they don’t appreciate it (IMO). Stupidity, naivety, intoxication, poor judgement or in this case it would seem to be sensationalism (bravado), whatever the cause I’d hate to have to call the family and explain how Dave ended up in hospital or worse.

… But if they’re going to do it anyway, you may as well video it so you can explain to the next of kin that they really were that silly.

You have to remember that being on this show is their "job" right now.We can then consider that the producers are the bosses.I think and feel the "SLASH AND BURN" was a producers idea.After viewing Dave's videoes on YOUTUBE for a year I think one can get a handle on his character.It appeared that Cody and Dave begrudgingly did this.Their attitude to me was "lets get this stunt over with so we can teach something real".Some of their wording subtley or even subversivly was not in favor of it.
I have noticed that they build a different type of shelter each episode.Dave constructs a different kind of trap and they try to show an other way to start a fire.Looking deeper into the show you start to see a pattern of SHELTER,WATER,FIRE and FOOD(tracking and hunting/trapping) and utilizing resources found or on you.When it comes to navigation it seems to be more towards gross navigation and obtain an idea of your terrain.
I wish that I could see some of what didn't make it on TV and could hear some of Dave and Cody's conversations away from and with the producers...


BOATMAN
John

I'd like to see them presented with intelligently chosen items to use instead of just random crap. Steel wool and a lantern battery? I haven't seen one of those batteries in real life in over ten years, much less used one. Okay, they're thrust into a survival situation with no preparation- I get that. But who ends up in that situation armed with a just the crap they're given? There's a theme to the show but I'd love to hear them describe how to choose survival items and use them. I've seen both of them do this in youtube vids, why not get the message out to a wider audience?

Still, I love the show!

It's interesting that we haven't got that episode yet here in Canada. They played what I presume was the season premire (Valley of the Volcanoes) and then reverted to season one re-runs. Wonder if they got too much negative feedback?

Because the audience doesn’t necessarily want to hear that they need to take personal responsibility for being equipped to survive (with the exception of everyone here who has been watching, of course).

Some of the survival shows also try to show how you can survive a given situation by using the items you would have brought with you and simply keeping a cool head. One I am thinking of in particular is the episode of survivorman where Les Stroud pretended to be an abandoned/lost scuba diver. He showed how a person could survive using the scuba equipment they brought with them.

That said, a whole new show showcasing different gear and how it could be used in a survival situation might not be a bad idea.

W

3 guess's as to whom they won't invite.....


As some one pointed out a while back, we would have pooled our resources, binned the drama, formulated a plan and been out of Dodge by the first commercial break

How different is that from Stroud's multitool, thermal layer and harmonica, plus whatever one gadget the producers gave him and he could salvage from a vehicle if there was one?

Now, I agree with the idea of proper small kits for one of their shows, like the one Lundin describes in 98.6 and the 10 (or 20) piece kits Cantebury has shown on Youtube. I think it would be a very different affair, just like when Stroud had the dog sled and had his kit in the german mess can.