1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

Anybody I can readily help or barter with. Trade painkillers or antiseptics for extra socks, etc.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

Avoid if possible. Assume that all groups larger then a family falls into the "high risk" catagory and should be avoided. Small groups gets confronted. Bug out with minimum supplies if unable to avoid.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

Can they help, keep up, and do I trust them.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

If it's unattended and a viable survival item (food, water, medicine, gear), then it's foraging. Keep a list of what you take for settling later if possible. Consumer goods are looting. Weapons are a gray area since they are both a viable survival item and resellable after the crisis.

In all the recent disasters in the last decade or so, I cannot recall one where people's lives were in any danger from roaming thugs etc. Aside from the slight unrest in Haiti, cities that were devastated in Christchurch, Australia, Japan, İzmit, Indonesian earthquake, NY 9/11 etc, many large metro centers were either devastated and or abandoned/evacuated in relatively peaceful order.

I would think that in my own country that it too would be a fairly safe evac through a devastated city, however that is not to say I would not keep situational awareness.

On the other-hand, resorting to Hollywood disaster flick plots and treating/planning our evac based on some wishful Walter Mitty-isque and thinking that the only way out is to fight or dream up group protocols to survive is not on my priorities list.

Sheesh, Teslin_, you're killin' all our fun!

(Okay, I grant that some responses seem more appropriate to bugging out of various third-world locations. Or perhaps a zombie apocalypse. I guess you deal with the situation you have at hand.)

Me, I'll help anyone I can; repel anyone who needs repelling; leave an IOU for anything I borrow; and hope to come through with a clear conscience. I demand of myself what I would ask of others.

We've had hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and the like throughout the history of the US of A, and I've seen no evidence of roving bands of thugs and "checkpoints" where people take your stuff when you pass through their crimeland. Shrug - as you say, it makes for good movies, but it hasn't happened in reality in all the devastating hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes we've suffered through.

I'm not going to go bugging out in my devastated city because there's nowhere to go on the San Francisco peninsula. My expectation is that the two major arteries will be blocked by fallen overpasses, and the local streets will be covered in rubble. I'm not going to walk all those miles south through that kind of crap -- I can't make it at my age and in my condition.

I'll bug in, and anyone who wants to join us will be welcome. If we're here long enough for food and clothes to run out, we'll do what everyone did in New Orleans - meet up at the street corners and share information on where stuff is. Event the cops were in the same straits as everyone else, and 'looting' of food and clothing was not only allowed, but the cops were there, too. People found looting consumer electronics and liquor were arrested, charged, and tried for looting, but people taking food and clothing were not punished. I expect the same here.

I appreciate your feedback, Martin, as well as the others. And I certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. This is one of those situations where I should have held off posting until I wasn't so tired and could put in the time more fully explain.

I understand where you're coming from in regards to stopping for legal authorities, which is primarily why my goal would be to avoid them entirely. I have no animosity towards authority, just personal experience that their efforts to do what's best for the masses does not necessarily translate to what's best for a specific individual. Lacking the resources and authority to make exceptions, we would be huddled off to an evacuation shelter along with thousands of others where the medical needs of my son could not possibly be met, where the very environment would likely exacerbate his illness, and where we would be relieved of any weapons making the success of subsequent efforts to reach our pre-positioned refuges untenable. I'm not advising or advocating this policy for the masses, it is just that shelters are not designed or staffed to deal with people who have exotic medication and high-maintenance therapy needs.

Without getting into specifics, after just 24 hours without medication or therapy my son's ability to be physically active would be reduced by 25-50%. After 72 hours he would be unable to perform any strenuous activity and would require a lengthy hospitalization to recover. In 5 days permanent damage would be likely, and without critical medical care, death would ensue. At a shelter, the best we could hope for is that a local hospital might have and provide a small supply of medication within 48 hours, in the hope that it will suffice until arrangements could be made for a full supply, but at retail cost of almost $300 per day for his meds, (thank God for prescription plans), refrigeration required, this is not something that hospitals stock in quantity (in spite of his condition not being rare), and forget about the logistical problems of actually arranging the transfer. Then there's the matter of the equipment needed for his therapy, which isn't available even at the hospital that specializes in his treatment.

So if I am going to fulfill my obligation as a father, the best way to do that is to avoid the authorities until I can access a cache of medicine and equipment necessary to maintain his health. And this is not without precedent. In 1996 I was stuck overnight due to stopped highway traffic during a blizzard because the police would not allow me to pass on on local roads due to snow conditions, though I was driving a well-modified 4WD vehicle that had gone up 4x4 trails in mountains under worse conditions, had tire chains, a shovel and a winch on-board, water and food supplies and, since nobody else was on those roads, would have posed no danger to anyone but myself. Fortunately, my wife was alive at the time and was home to take care of the children. There have been several other similar but less severe incidents. In '99 I was "detained" for attempting to enter a restricted disaster zone because everyone was too busy to verify I'd been called to help with recovery and supply operations during flooding from hurricane floyd. I harbor no ill will about these events, but they do affect my personal evacuation strategy.

Insofar as going looking for a fight, indeed quite the opposite. My preference would be to avoid any confrontation whatsoever, and my routes are planned to skirt areas that present the greatest risk. However, there are some unpleasant urban areas with easy access, and my home would be along a logical escape route to safety. As much as I'd like to expect the disaster would bring out the best in mankind, again experience is my only indicator. For example, in 1977 there was significant arson, looting and rioting in New York due to a city-wide blackout. It is still regarded as one of the worst riots in US history. Getting closer to home, during the 2003 regional blackout there was looting and some cases of arson in Newark and Patterson, and the situation could have grown much worse if there wasn't a huge police turn-out in anticipation of trouble. The next town over from ours has significant gang activity, even my oldest son was attacked by three gang members while walking home from the train station in broad daylight (fortunately, his quick reactions allowed him to escape with only minor injuries, he now knows better). There was looting in suburban Bound Brook and Manville after hurricane Floyd in 1999 and the April 2007 nor'easter. As much as I would pray for the best it would be naive of me to not plan accordingly.

And it's not as if I'd be walking down the street with shotgun at arms and bandoleers of ammunition across my chest. Nor would I be threatening to shoot people for asking for a sip of water or kicking hungry babies out of my way. I want to be invisible. If I'm lucky and we had enough time to grab our BoBs before we set out, we'll have just enough supplies for our own needs. However, if we have to punt we'll be little better than anyone else -- some band aids, a water bottle and purification drops, energy bars, pocket knife, flashlight and fire steel -- except with the hope that we can reach one of our stocked refuge points and continue to survive.

To me, survival starts with me and my family first, my "tribe" (consisting of neighbors and church community) second, and everyone else third. I'll admit that is a selfish view, but that is the nature of survival. Once my family is safe I will do all I can to help others. I'm not a first responder or a CERT member -- I just can't commit the time as a single dad -- but I've always volunteered my help whenever and wherever possible. I think that in the long run, what I can provide in assistance once my family is safe far exceeds the sprinklings of supplies I can spare during my evacuation. If others are willing to put strangers before their own family, please let me be the first to recommend you for sainthood.

My apologies to Doug and the rest of the board if I've ruffled some feathers. I promise no more posting when I'm overtired.

Perhaps we can all take a lesson from man's (and women's) best friend in how they will even be their "brother's keeper" of other dogs:

Loyal Friend

Pete

ParamedicPete ... well said my friend. Sometimes our own pets teach us a lesson in humanity and humility.

I think that Americans are cautious about getting stopped by the "authorities" in a disaster zone for a variety of reasons. Not all the arguments are bad.

For one thing, a lot of very worried parents are going to be trying to get home as quickly as possible - esp. if they have children at some form of daycare. Mothers and fathers who are stressed out about their kids - are not always in a calm frame of mind. And for those of you who don't have kids ... parents are under a lot of pressure these days. Typically you need to pitck up your kids from day care by some specific time. You may get fined $$ by these caregivers, if you are even 10 minutes late. Who knows what these care givers are going to do in a major earthquake - will they even still be there??? These kinds of thoughts tend to stress out parents. So you can see why some people who are doing a "bug out" may not be Rambo's. They're just Moms and Dads.

Also, Americans are aware that the State Dept. contracted Blackwater to provide some security operations during the problem with Katrina in New Orleans. I really have no idea exactly what the folks working for Blackwater did. Maybe they were assigned to guard sensitive installations - which could be a totally valid operation. But I don't think that we would feel all that good about Blackwater people manning standard checkpoints around our city. That is not going to go over well. I would personally feel a lot better about my local police enforcing street security - because I feel like I can talk to those guys and they would understand my situation. Who knows who is setting the ROE (Rules of Engagement) for Blackwater??? So this could cause some ordinary civilians to either not cooperate, or probably to just try to avoid security checkpoints.

[and yeah ... I know that Blackwater isn't called Blackwater any more. But it's still the same guys].

Common sense still prevails. If your goal is to SURVIVE, it's not a good idea to put up resistance at a checkpoint in a disaster zone. You could get shot. That reduces your survival chances a LOT !

other Pete

I get the impression this thread is designed to fan the flames and see what people write...

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

I stop for my job, for one. I'm expected to show up at the hospital and pitch in for as long as it takes, even if means crossing a ruined city to get there. This counts whether the hospital is still standing or has been reduced to an ER tent city. This is part of our emergency response policy, as I understand it.

Beyond that, it all depends; you can't read a person or a situation until the moment is there. If it's a person who's obviously injured or trapped, or if it's a kid who's lost their parents, darn tootin' I'd stop. My particular town has a very high crime rate, though, so in general I'd be wary of people we interacted with, if the situation wasn't obvious to read.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

Depends. If it's a friend who's lost everything, I'd share. If they're a stranger in need, I'd direct them to where they could plausibly expect to find humanitarian aid; this gives them a productive course of action to consider and gets them off my back. If they're a stranger who's not asking nicely, my first priority is to keep my family safe.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

Join me? If that thought crosses their mind, then they're probably a close friend or distant family member who doesn't have a place to stay. They come with and will be given tasks, things to keep them busy so they won't panic or get depressed.

Otherwise, people are already going to be acting on their best interests: I've seen how some react in minor disasters, and they tend to flee towards family who live out of the area. I don't see how my group would be more appealing to them.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

Hmm. To me, foraging = taking wild edible plants and small game, both of which are in the woods. Looting is something rioters and thieves do, of which I am neither. I'd say the line is obviously clear.

Nope.

For the sake of argument, I will grant that "fanning the flames" was not the intent, but, vague and general as it is, the thread has produced more heat than light. Perfect for a cold winter's night...