Short of Throwing stones from your backyard what forms of Gathering The means to support your nutrition have you stockpiled? There are hundreds if not thousands of ways to obtain Game and I have been wondering if having just a Firearm is enough. When Ammunition Runs out What do you have left?

When I think long and hard about the subject a long long list of items obtainable in stores comes up but then I start thinking of more basic methods such as a Throwing stick. When Going out On a camping trip or hike I understand that its impractical to bring Things such as the throwing stick with you when you can make one easily but when surviving out of your own house would it be such a bad idea to have say a Five gallon bucket filled with prepared methods? Rat Traps, Slingshot, Marbles, Snares, Arrows/Arrow making supplies, Fishing Spears, Rod and tackle, Live Pest Traps, Ball barrings, Nets,.....Uhh...Ball-peen Hammers?...Well you get the point.

When modern Ammunition Runs out what will you have on hand to replace it? Would it be crazy to go as far as say, Purchase a Muzzle loading riffle and learning how to Make Lead Ball's and Gunpowder? I find people tend to forget that without modern factory equipment many of the things we rely on will run out quick in the worst case Emergencies. Modern Ammunition cannot be made without Modern machinery yet a ball of lead can be made with a home made smelter and a mold even a more accurate miniball.

I can't imagine a scenario nor is it on my radar where modern ammo would run out and seems beyond the scope of ETS forums. That said, there are plenty of other methods of catching game which may or may not be legal depending on your countries or jurisdictional law and may also violate the ETS terms of rules by discussing here.

I'm a rebel. I have no firearm. If we end up moving to a rural area, we'll likely get one for protection. My DH grew up going to the range, and that is in the future family plan. I've been toying with giving bow hunting a try but that's anothe topic.

For now, for food, we'd be looking at our very small urban garden, fish, small game and birds. We'd also have a very small selection of wild edibles that we recognize well enough to safely eat.

In terms of equipment, we've got:

-fishing gear
-slingshot and materials for slings
-rope and snare wire
-mouse traps (thank you Cody Lundin!)
-a homemade bow and arrow set (thank you Scouts!)
-rocks perfect for deadfalls
-about 2 dozen old metal and wood broom/mop handles, that are currently waiting for a Scouting project
-bags of bird seed and squirrel feed

We've also got knives, hammers, axes, shovels, etc. but i'm not sure how practical they'd be as hunting tools.

This weekend we watched Bear make a fish trap and go fish herding by throwing rocks. It looked like a kind of viable option.

Some things not to overlook:

-2 huge pine trees, on our property, that are adored by squirrels and birds
-lots of ongoing practice tracking and stalking
-a few pairs of good binocculars
-one pair of nightvision googles

Teslinhiker, maybe we can change the reference. I'm not comfortable with firearms, so what could a non-hunter use (not "do") to try to get food in a long-term scenario?

I think any realistic assessment would conclude that you run out of large game before you run out of cartridges. And that assumes some world-wide event that precludes anyone making cartridges, and/or the components used in reloading. Hard to imagine such an event. Local, mostly short term, shortages are not impossible but widespread and long term shortages seem unlikely.

If it comes down to it not much beats the brutal efficiency of gathering a community, tying crude nets, and using the majority of people as beaters to drive game into the nets where they are clubbed to death.

There are also snares, bows, spring and dead-fall traps, and endurance hunting where you run down and club the game to death. People have been killing game for a very long time and it is only the methods favored in the last few hundred years that would disappear, even in a worse-case scenario.

I realize debilitating shortages of ammunition and people living for years on large game hunting is a fixture in survivalist literature, and is often a working assumption, a 'given', in survivalist culture and boards, but I don't think that these assumptions are realistic.

Art has already replied with my same sentiments and I'll leave it at that.

The world's (and the United States') current population and population distribution cannot be supported by a hunting/gathering lifestyle.

If a disaster of sufficient magnitute were to occur that disabled our current agricultural and distribution system, there would be unsustainable hunting -- we would rapidly overhunt game animals leading to their virtual or actual extinction. This would happen much more quickly than most of us will deplete our ammunition supplies. Here's a way to visualize what will happen should such a disater ever occur -- imagine a floor map of the United States. Place a tube filled with 100 ball bearings on top of NYC, L.A., S.F., Chicago, Miami, Dallas, etc. Now, imagine what would happen if you lifted up each of the tubes simultaneously. The only meat animals left will be domesticated animals on farms and humans.

Accordingly, I do not recommend worrying too much about how to hunt for food once you run out of ammunition. Instead, you should plan on how to produce sufficient food to feed you and those for whom you are responsible.

Unfortunately, if you successfully implement your plan to produce food, you will become a target for others who are unable to produce sufficient food for themselves.

Thus, you will need a plan to protect yourself and your food production capabilities. The bad news is -- no amount of preparation will allow you to protect yourself if you act by yourself. You will need a self-sufficient community that is capable of defending itself.

If you manage to survive long enough to become part of a self-sufficient community, CONGRATULATIONS! Now the hard part begins, rebuilding civilization.

"TEOTWAWKI- The End Of The World As We Know It"
http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=182658#Post182658

I suggest thinking the unthinkable from time to time is exactly what this ETS forum is all about. In the case of this thread, I would suggest that it points to seeking experience securing food without firearms - surely a useful skill in many conceivable situations - and perhaps widening your palate to include foods new to you.

Even here in California, which bans most trapping and netting of game animals, some study of the Fish & Game regulations suggests many other legal means of "thumping chow."

"Gathering" is an elastic term that might cover many food acquisition techniques. With a California hunting and fishing license, for example, you can both trap and hand gather coastal foods like crab, abalone [special regs and report required], bivalves [including but not limited to clams, mussels, and oysters], seaweed, and algae. On land, mushrooms, edible plants, and plant products do not move fast enough to elude the wily forager. Rattlesnakes may be taken anywhere, any time, and by any method without limit; while there is a two-a-day limit on other snakes.

Hook and line fishing techniques allow seeking saltwater and freshwater fish, turtles, and frogs with certain legal requirements. In some cases throw nets and bow-and-arrow may be used.

Then there are things like snails and insects.

No ammo required.

"Please note that this is not a "survivalist site" Where is this stated? I'll give you three guesses....

Pretty fanciful stuff. If I need to gather food on an emergency basis, I would look to vegetal sources and to non firearm techniques for efficient and effective good gathering. If your ammo should be running low,remember an old military maxim from the 19th century -"Save the last bullet for yourself."

C.H.U.D. & Soylent Green,Doesn't sound so far fetched afterall,Does it?:)

I have both a recurve and compound bow and the means to make my own arrows and strings.

I have also recently purchased a wrist rocket-type slingshot and plan to start learning how to use that.

I'm looking at this topic as "What are ways to gather meat without a firearm?", which according to my folks who lived through the Great Depression is a valid survival topic without falling into Mad Max territory. As grandpa used to say, "Trappers eat better than hunters".

That being said, here in Texas trapping turtles is allowed. A quick google search on trapping turtles brings up all sorts of easy-to-make traps.

I also keep a roll of chicken wire on hand in case I wish to build an aviary so my girls can study live birds...

-Blast

I think you might of missed the intent of the last paragraph from the OP. I (and presumably Art) interpreted the wording as a post modern type of society where modern ammo was no longer available. These types of far fetched scenarios are not why I visit ETS...

I read what the OP wrote and then subverted it into a scenario my parents and grandparents actually experienced. There's a lot of valuable stuff we can learn from the Great Depression which may help in a possible upcoming long-term disasters.

-Blast

You have no idea how close that is to the truth.
-Blast, who needs to now go check the Google street view of his house to see if his garage door was open when they came by.

2 cast nets (one for bait, one for mullet or other schooling fish), snatch hook rig, spinning reel.....blue crab, stone crab and fish traps, .....I'm hoping everyone heads inland... I read James Clavell's King Rat... I'll try the bushy tailed ones first

I am going to recuse myself from a response. I just finished my annual reading of World War Z. (lol, I know it's silly), I'm afraid my mind is still tainted by Max Brooks.

OTOH, my son has practice at a park with wild rabbits. While there last night, I took my 2yo DD out 'hunting wabbits' and I considered snare locations and technique. My snares are generally horrible constructions, I believe I have caught more food with my hands.

Fishing, foraging and if things get really bad, small scale trapping, and if things came down to that, I'd sample the long pig (not hunt them, but if opportunity would present itself...)

1. Extensive fishing kit:
Including but not limited to:
Several rods/hand-lining bars, several km of fishing line, a few hundred hooks, spinners, various styles of those rubbery things I don't remember the English word for and so on.
Prawn nets
Crab pots and other fish traps, several collapsible (rather fragile kinds), plus a few chicken wire ones.
Small drag nets
Spear gun + snorkelling gear

2. A few decent books on edible plants (local, general European, a few with more global scope but naturally quite limited), plus tools for the task (pretty simple, knives, saw, buckets and plastic bags).

3. Lots of seeds and a (very small) hydroponic growing system + lots of pots with herbs and similar. Some of it's pretty quick growing, (sprouts in 2-3 days, some greens in 1-3 months and the rest 3-8 months).

If feacal matter would really hit the fan, I might retire to a uninhabited island and try farming a bit, or at least planting a few low maintenance plants there in the hope of returning after a while. This would be from 3 months to a year from date of plantation, so a pretty long term solution.

4. If really desperate, small scale trapping (rabbits and smaller), throwing sticks, arrows (maybe, I'm not very good at it)

All this would depend on having some sort of warning beforehand, and the right season (I live in a boat, currently moored in Finland = trapped in ice/lifted from water for about 4-5 months a year).

Even the Soylent Green wouldn't last that long when you consider nearly 1/2 million large farm animals are now killed in the US every day to keep the meat habit going.

Annual USDA slaughter stats 2008

Cattle: 35,507,500
Pigs: 116,558,900
Chickens: 9,075,261,000
Layer hens: 69,683,000
Broiler chickens: 9,005,578,000
Turkeys: 271,245,000

Soylent green would last about 6-12 months.

I've always fancied the idea of driving large herds of bison off of cliffs. Quite nostalgic. (I jest)

In reality, I suspect the quick over hunting of large game would occur, especially in the more densely populated areas. Then, we're down to the small crawly things. I understand insects are quite nutritious. I better stock up on Tapatio sauce.

Nowhere did the OP say "post-modern society where ammo isn't available." It did say "when modern ammo has run out".

I'm with Sherif Blast on this one. Gathering meat without firearms is a valid topic, unless we are to decree that ETS is only for vegetarians.

Putting words in someone else's mouth is dangerous and can ruin a good discussion.

I came to the opposite conclusion in reading the OP's post. However, it really is a moot point for many of us. Living on the fringes of a really huge metro area (16 million more or less), wild edibles will be speedily exterminated in any situations where taking of wild game becomes even moderately prevalent. In far northern Canada, you are dealing with a vastly different situation.

If living off the land in any serious way ever becomes necessary, I hope I will be stranded on the northern Channel Islands. One would have a much better chance there with less competition, and readily available seafood is handy in any tidepool.

Years ago an archaeologist and his crew were forgotten by the US Navy on San Miguel Island and spent four days on the island after their regular food was exhausted. It took some work, but they were dining on abalone when some sailor back on the mainland finally woke up and smelled the coffee....

I'll offer some thoughts as a city dweller. I'm not sure exactly how I ever came to be a resident of a really large city (Los Angeles), since I prefer the countryside and the mountains. It must have something to do with all the women in my family - who like to be closer to malls. Anyway, these days I focus on "urban survival". This is a non-trivial challenge if your city turns into a disaster zone.

I do AGREE with an earlier point made that the USA can no longer sustain itself by hunting and foraging. Some people definitely can - esp. those lucky enough to live in very rural areas, and places like Missouri, Colorado, Idaho, Utah, Montana etc. But we've got a much larger population now than we had back in the days of WW2 and the Great Depression. Another problem is that our supply line for supermarkets is very efficient, but the stocks are not big. We have "speed but not depth". This means that in any major national emergency, supplies of food on shelves could disappear in 2-3 days.

Probably my two best "weapons" for foraging would be the slingshot and fishing line. No need to explain the value of fishing if you live neat the coast - except that a LOT of other people would be trying the same thing (so chances of success are reduced). A slingshot is an excellent tool for small game, which may include squirrels in the local park and various birds (seagulls, pigeons, ravens). I have to admit that I would really NOT like the idea of eating cooked seagull or raven, since both birds are scavengers. But if you are desperate, you do what you have to do. I doubt the rest of my family would eat them, although my wife grew up in Missouri and probably would eat squirrel. But a couple of squirrels won't go far when you are feeding a family.

If things get rough in American cities (really desperate), I would not be surprised to see people go after pets. Stray dogs and cats are a potential meat source. I don't think a lot of people would really do this ... but some might.

Perhaps more practical is the ability to eat leaves from trees and large bushes. I would avoid small edible plants because you don't know what greenery has been sprayed with bad chemicals (this is a real problem). I was planning to start a separate thread on edible tree leaves in the future on this forum.

Pretty soon, if you go down the list of options for urban survival, you realize that the choices in a big city are not good. Which leads back to the idea that storing an adequate food supply is a really GOOD idea. My wife and I just stored up 3 weeks worth of food for our family this last weekend. I will try to supplement this with some long-term grain storage.

It strikes me that a really good survival project for anyone on this forum, esp. including Boy Scout groups (!), would be to take a slingshot, kill a squirrel, skin it and gut it, and boil the meat up in a soup. I bet this activity would generate a huge volume of complaints from some parents - but it's a very practical survival exercise. If I do it with my own family, I may post the results on the forum. Mostly for amusement. I'm sure some people here have done it in the past.

cheers,
Pete #2

Like these guys? (Warning: Dead critter content)
http://talk.slingshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1713
http://talk.slingshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1837
http://talk.slingshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2507

A lot of these guys use homemade rigs with flat bands made from Therabands instead of commercial tubular bands. Quite a bit heavier draw and projectile weights then what Walmart sells.

With my accuracy, I'd limit my shots to 10-15 yards for a "Bunny size" target.

EDIT:

A historical fact of interest is that cities really only started to grow once agricultural technologies took off. No power and gasoline means no combines, trucks, or other modern machinery. It's going to be hoe and scyth time for most of the population just to grow enough food.

I Agree on both points. If Things got that desperate Id think most people would believe in the little things that keep them feeling human. Not eating your own family dog may be one of those things.

Well, there's desperate and then there's desperate. There were reports of children disappearing during the Soviet famines of the 1930s and during catholic Siege of Sancerre (1572–1573) in France of the graves of dead being dug up so that the bone marrow from the bones could be consumed.

Nowhere did I say that these were the OP's words. In fact I used the words "I interpreted". So I really think you need to re-consider your post in defaming my interpretation of the OP's thoughts.

But you know what? It really does not matter, so don't bother replying, I am done here at ETS...

Look up Conibear traps, you can use them with or without bait and they last forever and can be employed in many diffrent ways depending on what your trying to trap. I bought some years ago and the first time I set one up I got a rabbit within a few hours. I've used the 110's around the house for pest control and managed to kill opossum and skunks and other animals that were going under my house. I've also got the usual assortment of air rifles, slingshots, spears, fishing gear, snare wire, cage traps, etc but the traps require little energy to set up and they can be more effective for animals that tend to be nocturnal.

Dear god may I never get that desperate....

Im starting to think of getting a few fish traps made with 2 liter soda bottles now..HMMMM..

I remember reading an autobiography of a guy who survived the great famine in Ukraine in '33 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor). Can't remember his name (something something-stky, if that helps).

Basically, he describes families exchanging first elderly relatives and later children, as "help" at the desolate farms. No helper was every visible, the families suddenly had meat for several weeks and neither family ever asked for their elderly relatives or kids back.

Also, people escaping cities to find work or food in the countryside disappeared every so often and the whole villages held a feast the next day.

In the appendix there was some statistics. Almost three thousand people were condemned in court for cannibalism after the famine.

It was a pretty good book, although I think the protagonist was one heck of a stoic eight-year-old orphan.

-jh

I believe I'll take starvation over eating my or another's kin. Kind of takes the humanity out of being human.

"Short of Throwing stones from your backyard what forms of Gathering The means to support your nutrition have you stockpiled?"

Realistically?

Seeds
Spading fork
Hoe
Rake
Shovel
Fruit trees and shrubs
Urine for nitrogen
Ground bones for phosphorus
Ashes for potassium

I live in a fairly rural area where 80% of the people hunt. I would predict that all 'loose' game from house cats to deer/elk would disappear within six months. The mighty local hunters would collect the best cuts and waste the rest. Anyone with a cow or goat or chicken would do best to keep it in the house, or sleep in the barn with a gun.

Eat the relatives you don't like first.

John Steinbeck (from Travels with Charley): "If I were hungry, I would happily hunt anything that runs or crawls or flies, even relatives, and tear them down with my teeth."

Sue

LOL!!

Cody Lundin has a few pages about cannibalism in his book "When All Hell Breaks Loose." Sad sad stuff and hopefully nothing any of us will ever have to face.