So you have decided you must bug out through a devastated city. Let's assume you and those who are to go with you have well-thought-out bug-out-bags full of gear and supplies, and you have a well-thought-out foot / bicycle / motorcycle route with alternates to move through the city. You know you will probably have to spend at least one overnight in the city. Now it is time to move.

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

1.Stop for No one 2.They'll have to Earn it!(see rule #1)3.Newbies take Point,otherwise see Rule #1! 4.My BOB is so thought out,that descision Never comes to bear!

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

Nobody. In some circumstances, I might avoid legal authorities as well. Legal authorities will funnel people towards mass evacuation routes or shelters, both of which will be quickly overrun and useless. For at least the initial 72 hours, I would prefer to be self-sufficient and avoid the hysteria, pandemonium and potential dangers of being a "have" in a sea of "have nots."

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

Your choice: 9mm or 12-gauge.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

All others are considered a liability until proven otherwise. If you appear rational and non-threatening, and can convince me you are sufficiently self-reliant, (both in terms of physical capabilities and supplies), there are benefits to larger groups (within reason) and you are welcome to join. But there will still be one member of my "tribe" on watch at all times to avoid problems.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

For the most part, foraging is gathering consumables while looting is taking property. Food, beverages, clothing, fuel, medicine and other supplies would fall under foraging. Cash, coins, jewelry, electronics, etc fall under looting. Things that blur the line are transportation and tools.

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?
No one, I would likely divert around others.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?
That will have to do with the range to contact. Starting with 7.62 NATO, moving thru 12GA, and on to .45ACP. In the end through, it will likely be an end. I will not be in the mood to share.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?
Everyone needs a trail canary....

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

If I need it to survive, and someone else isn't using it, I will make use of it. If I can later replace the value to the owner, I will.

1. Unless they are better armed than me, I stop for no one. I will make diversions to avoid confrontations.

2. You want what I have, cool. Have some bullets first. I subscribe to the shoot the biggest mofo/obvious leader first, the others will quickly lose interest.

3. You can follow me, but I don't share stuff. I will tell you what to pick up as we pass, but I am not stopping unless I need some too. Keep up or get left behind.

4. Looting is TVs, foraging is food. Doubt I will be taking many TVs along with me. Take nothing from anyone else who is using it or may use it - but if the property is not being used and appears abandoned, and I can use it, fair game.

I posted about 11 replies to various posts in this thread, all of which would have forced me into the untenable situation of having to ban myself for profanity, vulgarity, bad manners and excessive bile.

Now that I've cooled off a bit, I'll summarize in more neutral tones some of my perspective on the comments that this thread has generated:

1. If you don't stop for legal authorities in a life-threatening emergency, you are an idiot.

2. If you live in a fantasy "mad max" world and you see everything as a threat, you're not going to be very useful to anyone in a real emergency.

3. The correct protocol to follow for those who want to join you as you escape was developed by one Deamont Love during hurricane Katrina. See also some guy named Luke who has some perspective on the matter.

If you come expecting a battle, you'll get one. There's no looting in Japan. There's no riots. Even in Haiti, there was some unrest, but cooler heads prevailed.

For those who answered 9mm or 12ga to Question 2, what would you do when you are outnumbered and outgunned in a coordinated attack? I suppose in your answers you conceive of the enemy as the average citizen who turns predatory in times of crisis because he is a jerk. But what if your enemy is today's criminal youth, who often operates in groups, with tactics and firearms?

For example, you are walking along in a packed crowd, shoulder to shoulder, and suddenly you feel one or two guns pressed up against you. That's when they issue the request for money. Alternatively, you are sitting down, resting. Three seemingly friendly looking people join you, and that's when they flash their weapons. They politely explain that they have been following you for a while, and they know what you have, even down to a pretty good estimate of the amount of cash in your wallet. Hand it over, please. I have seen this sort of stuff happen in real life, or I know people whom it happened to.

To me, the best weapon is situational awareness and hiding your stuff -- that includes firearms. If you are going to carry a long gun, be ready for the possibility that someone would shoot you first from a hiding spot just to get your gun. That happens in peace time, so why not in times of catastrophe?


Da Bing

This thread was obviously proposed to allow us all to vent our hypermacho mall ninja, Mad Max bullet spewing, inner Walter Mitty personae.

This is great stuff for an off day on the internet, but as MF points out, it doesn't seem to happen in real life disasters. Could it be that people band together, cooperate, and assist one another?

And then to get real, share wisdom, and help each other think it through.

Yes, at least according to Rebecca Solnit. And the effect lasts about 6 week.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR2009082101111.html


And no, that effect does not exclude looting or robbing from happening. Neither does it exclude people from being ill tempered, sleep deprived, full of anxiety or aggressive.

Here are my thoughts ...

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

Keep in mind that in a disaster zone you may be facing National Guard troops. If you are unlucky you may bump into people working for Blackwater - or whatever they call themselves now. And you certainly can bump into the local police - who may be tired and nervous. The outcome depends on the rules of engagement (ROE) that have been given to these people. But the general ROE is that they may try to arrest or shoot anyone carrying a weapon in their hands, or a weapon that is visible. So if you have a gun for protection, you better keep it hidden when you bump into the authorities. Other than that, you STOP if the chance of getting shot outweighs the chance that you can escape or defend yourself. It's going to be a gut decision.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

A tough question. It's hard to know where to draw the line between compassion and survival. I don't think there's any clear guideline. You are going to have to make your own personal call. Just remember - that desperate person who needs some food or water may also have really valuable info that they can tell you in an emergency. Or maybe not. You just don't know.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

I would be skeptical about taking them along, unless it was kids. If I came across young kids who had no means of providing for themselves, I would try to find a way to help them. But if your objective is to walk a long way across a devastated city, most tag-alongs are going to slow you down. Most Americans are not good at walking these days. Watch the movie "The Book of Eli" with Denzel Washington. He gets into a moral dilemma when he decides to march onwards, even though terrible things are happening around him. Again - no easy answers.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

I would definitely forage for basics ... firewood, clean water, food. Many other people will be doing the same. I draw the line if it comes to taking their possessions by force - I would not do that. And I would try to prevent them from doing the same. But you have to use common sense. If you are overwhelmed, then give up your stuff. Besides, if you are really good at foraging, you can find more stuff. Most Americans will not have advanced survival skills. There aren't many Bear Grylls out there.

I don't think things are going to get apocalyptic in our big cities, unless we have earthquakes and tsunami's on really big scales (magnitude 9 and bigger). In that case, some of the city could be destroyed by fire. Try to remember that those other dirty, miserable human beings are indeed people, and some of them possess some really valuable skills. It's better to work together, if we can. In the end, your course of action will be decided by your faith, your conscience, and your purpose in life.

other Pete

I'll answer first, then comment.

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for? Anyone who looks like they need some assistance, assuming I can provide it. Try to avoid looters and keep moving otherwise.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have? Depends on how they approach it. If they are in need of help, try and help. If they are physically ok but "entitled" (read that as looking for someone else to fix things) too bad, you can work for it. If they are armed and threatening (highly unlikely around here)- be my guest, I just want out of here.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you? We are going that a way - come along. If able bodied, carry your share of the load. Supplies allocated as follows - those doing most the work get first share, children and infirm next, hangers on last if they get anything.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need? Looting is for profit, foraging is for survival. Ask when possible. If taking "abandoned" items make sure you keep track to reimburse later if possible.

Now the commentary - Location must really impact responses. I can't imagine responding as some have but circumstances vary a lot. Around here the primary drive would be to help our "neighbors" even as we bugged out. Of course there will be exceptions. If the city you live in/near really has you thinking that the best responses are evaluated by caliber and/or range, maybe you need some pre-disaster planning, like finding a better community.

-Eric

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

This has to be on a case-by-case basis. I'd aim to avoid confrontations and large groups. If the threat is not immediate, I'll help those I can.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

There's a huge difference between, "Mister, can you spare me a drink of water?" and "Give me all your stuff and I'll take the women, too."

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

Well-equipped friendlies? Sure. Looters? No. How to tell? Potentially very difficult.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

Are people defending it? Then it's looting.

Sigh. Some of you, I just don't know. Read this: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/world/asia/15elderly.html?_r=1&hp

“I saw the ugly side of people, and then I saw the good side,” he said. “Some people only thought of themselves. Others stopped to help.”

Disasters have an end, every one of them, and that right soon - and we should remember those who let their good sides show, and those that don't. Whatever your bugout plans, please remember that.

I have decided bug-out is necessary for survival. My focus is on getting myself and loved ones through town to a known place of shelter and re-supply. At most the trip will take a couple days walking.

First I will decide what I need to survive a couple days of walking and customize what I choose to carry to provide those things and not present an obvious target for robbery or worse. If possible I will not use backpacks or other "I have goodies for you" means of carry. I will not take my fully equipped BOB.

I know from the Rule of Threes that I will need air, shelter, and water to get through the journey. I know I will want but not absolutely need food.

Several N95 masks and bandanas are probably the best I am going to be able to do about air, together with whatever asthma and allergy meds my group needs. These will be spread many places throughout clothing and gear - not in a centralized first aid kit.

Shelter needs will heavily depend on weather, but will be primarily met by layered clothing. Used, even tattered, clothing masking underlayers; new stuff will be camoed with a few strategic tears, some felt pen markings, etcetera, to make them appear undesireable. A number of trash bags will be worn and distributed several places throughout clothing and gear.

Small bottles of water will be distributed throughout clothing and gear. No large or fancy water containers to attract the eye.

Small bars of food and candy will be distributed throughout clothing and gear.

Trade goods and "tribute" in the form of water and candy will be in the top, outermost layer of clothes and gear, ready to be given away.

Everyone will carry a used second pair of shoes / boots. Everyone will carry several pair of used socks distributed throughout clothing and gear.

We will travel by day and try to blend in with others moving around us.

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

Only briefly for those in need of aid to preserve life or limb.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

Verbal defense. If necessary, reluctant and piecemeal give away tof trade and tribute goods, and if that is not enough, retreat while shedding up to all your stuff. You win by surviving to get out of town not having the most stuff when you get there.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

Decide which of your loved ones you would risk for the stranger's possible safety. Prepare lies: oh, we are only going a couple of blocks to the park; as soon as we get to --- we will guide help back; this is our second trip, wait right here you can be part of the next group; etcetera. If you must add others to the group, try to keep the additions self-supporting overall, that is, if you add kids or disabled then add others to care for them. If you make the hard choice to refuse, console yourself: as soon as your loved ones are safe, you can return and be part of the effort to aid everyone else.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

Unless things go wrong you have what you need to get out of town, so take nothing. If unexpected need arises, then take just what you need to survive the trip out of town.

Lono ... good response. Sooner or later a disaster will be over, but we will have to live with our conscience for the rest of our lives.

That being said ... there are some scenario's where a person may feel obligated to cross a devastated city - without stopping too much. Let's look at them, because they deserve consideration.

1. Many people in large cities drive a long commute to work each day. They may easily live 50-100 miles from their work location, and they may drive a personal auto or travel daily in a van pool. What exactly are these people going to do - if their city gets devastated? Most likely they will feel a compelling need to get home quickly ... because they are worried about their loved ones. But also quite likely - local roads may be jammed by debris and traffic jams. So they can't drive. Or alternatively, they start driving and get trapped in traffic, then abandon their vehicle and walk. A lot of Americans would find this process to be very SCARY, esp. once they are out of the comfort zone of their personal car.

As I pointed out earlier, most Americans are not good at walking, and their ability to survive in the street is not great. I have actually encouraged people where i work to put a spare rucksack in their office, along with some sneakers, a warm jacket, a bottle of water and a granola bar. Keep in mind that I live in L.A. To the best of my knowledge, not a single person has heeded this advice.

2. Some people may be visiting a city as tourists, or they may be residents of a neighboring town or state. They may not feel a lot of obligation to the city where they are staying, and they may just want to "get the heck out of dodge". For reasons that i will explain in my next post, there may be many people in Los Angeles who feel that way after the Big Earthquake (!), including a lot of residents. These people may also be tempted to exit the city as promptly as possible. But in reality this means crossing a lot of unknown nighborhoods, some disaster scenario's (fires and demolished buildings), and moving through crowds of scared people.

Geeting out of a major disaster zone, such as Los Angeles after the Big One, is not a trivial undertaking.

other Pete

OK ... some food for thought.

I have said several times that I live in Los Angeles. I actually work in a company with a large number of engineers and technical people. These people are intelligent, and most have advanced degrees. Keep that in mind as you digest the following info.

This morning I asked three people the following questions: "Do you have emergency water at home?", "What do you think will happen in L.A. if there is a major quake like Japan?".

ANSWERS:

1. NONE of the people I talked to have put aside any spare water in their house. Not even a little bit. The only water they've got right now is what's in their cupboards from normal shopping, plus any water they could scavenge from the toilet (reservoir) or the hot water heater. Furthermore, they were all of the opinion that their neighbors also did not have any significant water put away for long-term emergency use.

2. The general opinion was that people in L.A. are depending on outside help to come pretty quickly after a quake. Maybe within a day or two. I have pointed out to my co-workers that the chance of any significant outside help is probably minmal for at least a week, and maybe longer. It is simply impossible for the US authorities to get supplies to the greater population of the Los Angeles basin. That being said ... the opinion of my co-workers is that the city will degenerate into a larger version of the Watts riots witihn 2-3 days after a major quake. I agree with them. There will be shooting, looting, and an "every man for himself" scenario in some (maybe many) parts of this city. This scenario will not play out under all circumstances, but could be very real after a HUGE quake. I expect civil unrest from Day #3 - Day #7 after a major quake, until the National Guard and police can calm things down.

So there exist reasons why some people inside the city may want to get the heck out of dodge immediately after a major quake. There is a short window of opportunity of a couple of days - when people are frightened and disrupted, but not yet overtly hostile. I expect to see the best and worst of human nature. Incidentally, I will probably remain in the city with my family.

other Pete

I'll use Tokyo as it is right now as my example. I don't know the country, I don't know the language. I don't know where anything is. All the Japanese people I've met in my life have always been helpful and polite.

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

I would assume that all contacts should be based on an individual basis. If someone needs help and I can provide it, I will attempt to do so. I will avoid anyone who seems to be looking for trouble. Sometimes it may be hard to tell the difference.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

Outright theft in Japan isn't all that likely, from what I understand. Might run into other problems with people from other countries, like the U.S. I will object.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

Movement is almost certainly slow and strewn with obstacles, large and small. Traveling with a group who are headed for the same destination can be a very good thing. It is very hard for one or two people to do it all themselves. If you are traveling with local people, they may know of things that can be extremely helpful. Out of a group of people, several small groups can make forays in different directions to find viable trails or food or water, then report back to the group.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

Food, water, shelter, medical supplies fall under foraging. Resalable articles would/should be considered looting.

I always tend to shake my head at these one-man Rambo scenarios. In a widespread disaster, you're going to need help, whether you like it or not. And you will be able to provide help, like it or not. I tend to wonder about people who are perfectly happy kicking babies and sick/injured people out of their path as they tromp along in their Storm Trooper mindset.

"Yes, there is a huge unbroken tank of fresh water here, but he didn't seem to want to hear anything we had to say, so we just let him continue on his way."

Dumb. Really, really dumb!

Sue

Having never been in this situation, my reply is based on what I currently think I'd do if I found myself in that situation.

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

As long as slowing down doesn't significantly endanger my life, I think I'd stop for anyone I'm able to help. And for those I cannot I'd like to think I'd stop for a moment to offer a word of comfort, perhaps get their name and a short message they'd like loved ones to receive, write it down and let them know I'll pass it on when I get the chance. In such a situation it's really the least I could do, and I think would also help with morale knowing that I'm at least making a difference for someone in the wake of such utter devastation.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

You know, I honestly don't know. If I have enough for everyone there's no problem, if sharing what I have would cause me serious problems then my thoughts range from willing martyrdom to hardened survival, and everything in-between.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

If we can help each other, then lets do it.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

Looting is sneaky and often unnecessary, foraging a resource is done honorably and only for what's truly needed. If the owner of the items is around and has refused to give permission to take anything, then taking it anyway is looting. If the owner is not around to say either way then quickly checking around to see if the items are truly abandoned is an honorable thing to do, and if they are to leave a note with your name and say what you have taken, explain why it is needed, apologize for doing so without permission and write that you intend to reimburse completely if/when possible. As a bonus to this method whoever finds your note will put your name on record, and I think it might warm people's hearts to see someone striving to do the right thing in the midst of such desperation.

I write this from the perspective that the people around me would take priority over finding out whether or not my family's okay, and--to some extent at least--would even take priority over myself. While I'd strongly want to be reunited with family ASAP, I don't see how it does anyone much good for me to be so fixated on that as to ignore the people around me, after all, they have families too, and if I can't be there for my own family and friends the least I can do is be there for someone else's. I think it would become important to learn "triage" of who you can help, who you can't, when to put others above yourself and when to put yourself above others for the greatest net benefit.

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

Anybody I can readily help or barter with. Trade painkillers or antiseptics for extra socks, etc.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

Avoid if possible. Assume that all groups larger then a family falls into the "high risk" catagory and should be avoided. Small groups gets confronted. Bug out with minimum supplies if unable to avoid.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

Can they help, keep up, and do I trust them.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

If it's unattended and a viable survival item (food, water, medicine, gear), then it's foraging. Keep a list of what you take for settling later if possible. Consumer goods are looting. Weapons are a gray area since they are both a viable survival item and resellable after the crisis.

In all the recent disasters in the last decade or so, I cannot recall one where people's lives were in any danger from roaming thugs etc. Aside from the slight unrest in Haiti, cities that were devastated in Christchurch, Australia, Japan, İzmit, Indonesian earthquake, NY 9/11 etc, many large metro centers were either devastated and or abandoned/evacuated in relatively peaceful order.

I would think that in my own country that it too would be a fairly safe evac through a devastated city, however that is not to say I would not keep situational awareness.

On the other-hand, resorting to Hollywood disaster flick plots and treating/planning our evac based on some wishful Walter Mitty-isque and thinking that the only way out is to fight or dream up group protocols to survive is not on my priorities list.

Sheesh, Teslin_, you're killin' all our fun!

(Okay, I grant that some responses seem more appropriate to bugging out of various third-world locations. Or perhaps a zombie apocalypse. I guess you deal with the situation you have at hand.)

Me, I'll help anyone I can; repel anyone who needs repelling; leave an IOU for anything I borrow; and hope to come through with a clear conscience. I demand of myself what I would ask of others.

We've had hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and the like throughout the history of the US of A, and I've seen no evidence of roving bands of thugs and "checkpoints" where people take your stuff when you pass through their crimeland. Shrug - as you say, it makes for good movies, but it hasn't happened in reality in all the devastating hurricanes, tornadoes, and earthquakes we've suffered through.

I'm not going to go bugging out in my devastated city because there's nowhere to go on the San Francisco peninsula. My expectation is that the two major arteries will be blocked by fallen overpasses, and the local streets will be covered in rubble. I'm not going to walk all those miles south through that kind of crap -- I can't make it at my age and in my condition.

I'll bug in, and anyone who wants to join us will be welcome. If we're here long enough for food and clothes to run out, we'll do what everyone did in New Orleans - meet up at the street corners and share information on where stuff is. Event the cops were in the same straits as everyone else, and 'looting' of food and clothing was not only allowed, but the cops were there, too. People found looting consumer electronics and liquor were arrested, charged, and tried for looting, but people taking food and clothing were not punished. I expect the same here.

I appreciate your feedback, Martin, as well as the others. And I certainly didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest. This is one of those situations where I should have held off posting until I wasn't so tired and could put in the time more fully explain.

I understand where you're coming from in regards to stopping for legal authorities, which is primarily why my goal would be to avoid them entirely. I have no animosity towards authority, just personal experience that their efforts to do what's best for the masses does not necessarily translate to what's best for a specific individual. Lacking the resources and authority to make exceptions, we would be huddled off to an evacuation shelter along with thousands of others where the medical needs of my son could not possibly be met, where the very environment would likely exacerbate his illness, and where we would be relieved of any weapons making the success of subsequent efforts to reach our pre-positioned refuges untenable. I'm not advising or advocating this policy for the masses, it is just that shelters are not designed or staffed to deal with people who have exotic medication and high-maintenance therapy needs.

Without getting into specifics, after just 24 hours without medication or therapy my son's ability to be physically active would be reduced by 25-50%. After 72 hours he would be unable to perform any strenuous activity and would require a lengthy hospitalization to recover. In 5 days permanent damage would be likely, and without critical medical care, death would ensue. At a shelter, the best we could hope for is that a local hospital might have and provide a small supply of medication within 48 hours, in the hope that it will suffice until arrangements could be made for a full supply, but at retail cost of almost $300 per day for his meds, (thank God for prescription plans), refrigeration required, this is not something that hospitals stock in quantity (in spite of his condition not being rare), and forget about the logistical problems of actually arranging the transfer. Then there's the matter of the equipment needed for his therapy, which isn't available even at the hospital that specializes in his treatment.

So if I am going to fulfill my obligation as a father, the best way to do that is to avoid the authorities until I can access a cache of medicine and equipment necessary to maintain his health. And this is not without precedent. In 1996 I was stuck overnight due to stopped highway traffic during a blizzard because the police would not allow me to pass on on local roads due to snow conditions, though I was driving a well-modified 4WD vehicle that had gone up 4x4 trails in mountains under worse conditions, had tire chains, a shovel and a winch on-board, water and food supplies and, since nobody else was on those roads, would have posed no danger to anyone but myself. Fortunately, my wife was alive at the time and was home to take care of the children. There have been several other similar but less severe incidents. In '99 I was "detained" for attempting to enter a restricted disaster zone because everyone was too busy to verify I'd been called to help with recovery and supply operations during flooding from hurricane floyd. I harbor no ill will about these events, but they do affect my personal evacuation strategy.

Insofar as going looking for a fight, indeed quite the opposite. My preference would be to avoid any confrontation whatsoever, and my routes are planned to skirt areas that present the greatest risk. However, there are some unpleasant urban areas with easy access, and my home would be along a logical escape route to safety. As much as I'd like to expect the disaster would bring out the best in mankind, again experience is my only indicator. For example, in 1977 there was significant arson, looting and rioting in New York due to a city-wide blackout. It is still regarded as one of the worst riots in US history. Getting closer to home, during the 2003 regional blackout there was looting and some cases of arson in Newark and Patterson, and the situation could have grown much worse if there wasn't a huge police turn-out in anticipation of trouble. The next town over from ours has significant gang activity, even my oldest son was attacked by three gang members while walking home from the train station in broad daylight (fortunately, his quick reactions allowed him to escape with only minor injuries, he now knows better). There was looting in suburban Bound Brook and Manville after hurricane Floyd in 1999 and the April 2007 nor'easter. As much as I would pray for the best it would be naive of me to not plan accordingly.

And it's not as if I'd be walking down the street with shotgun at arms and bandoleers of ammunition across my chest. Nor would I be threatening to shoot people for asking for a sip of water or kicking hungry babies out of my way. I want to be invisible. If I'm lucky and we had enough time to grab our BoBs before we set out, we'll have just enough supplies for our own needs. However, if we have to punt we'll be little better than anyone else -- some band aids, a water bottle and purification drops, energy bars, pocket knife, flashlight and fire steel -- except with the hope that we can reach one of our stocked refuge points and continue to survive.

To me, survival starts with me and my family first, my "tribe" (consisting of neighbors and church community) second, and everyone else third. I'll admit that is a selfish view, but that is the nature of survival. Once my family is safe I will do all I can to help others. I'm not a first responder or a CERT member -- I just can't commit the time as a single dad -- but I've always volunteered my help whenever and wherever possible. I think that in the long run, what I can provide in assistance once my family is safe far exceeds the sprinklings of supplies I can spare during my evacuation. If others are willing to put strangers before their own family, please let me be the first to recommend you for sainthood.

My apologies to Doug and the rest of the board if I've ruffled some feathers. I promise no more posting when I'm overtired.

Perhaps we can all take a lesson from man's (and women's) best friend in how they will even be their "brother's keeper" of other dogs:

Loyal Friend

Pete

ParamedicPete ... well said my friend. Sometimes our own pets teach us a lesson in humanity and humility.

I think that Americans are cautious about getting stopped by the "authorities" in a disaster zone for a variety of reasons. Not all the arguments are bad.

For one thing, a lot of very worried parents are going to be trying to get home as quickly as possible - esp. if they have children at some form of daycare. Mothers and fathers who are stressed out about their kids - are not always in a calm frame of mind. And for those of you who don't have kids ... parents are under a lot of pressure these days. Typically you need to pitck up your kids from day care by some specific time. You may get fined $$ by these caregivers, if you are even 10 minutes late. Who knows what these care givers are going to do in a major earthquake - will they even still be there??? These kinds of thoughts tend to stress out parents. So you can see why some people who are doing a "bug out" may not be Rambo's. They're just Moms and Dads.

Also, Americans are aware that the State Dept. contracted Blackwater to provide some security operations during the problem with Katrina in New Orleans. I really have no idea exactly what the folks working for Blackwater did. Maybe they were assigned to guard sensitive installations - which could be a totally valid operation. But I don't think that we would feel all that good about Blackwater people manning standard checkpoints around our city. That is not going to go over well. I would personally feel a lot better about my local police enforcing street security - because I feel like I can talk to those guys and they would understand my situation. Who knows who is setting the ROE (Rules of Engagement) for Blackwater??? So this could cause some ordinary civilians to either not cooperate, or probably to just try to avoid security checkpoints.

[and yeah ... I know that Blackwater isn't called Blackwater any more. But it's still the same guys].

Common sense still prevails. If your goal is to SURVIVE, it's not a good idea to put up resistance at a checkpoint in a disaster zone. You could get shot. That reduces your survival chances a LOT !

other Pete

I get the impression this thread is designed to fan the flames and see what people write...

1. Other than for legal authorities, who do you stop for?

I stop for my job, for one. I'm expected to show up at the hospital and pitch in for as long as it takes, even if means crossing a ruined city to get there. This counts whether the hospital is still standing or has been reduced to an ER tent city. This is part of our emergency response policy, as I understand it.

Beyond that, it all depends; you can't read a person or a situation until the moment is there. If it's a person who's obviously injured or trapped, or if it's a kid who's lost their parents, darn tootin' I'd stop. My particular town has a very high crime rate, though, so in general I'd be wary of people we interacted with, if the situation wasn't obvious to read.

2. What is your response to those who want what you have?

Depends. If it's a friend who's lost everything, I'd share. If they're a stranger in need, I'd direct them to where they could plausibly expect to find humanitarian aid; this gives them a productive course of action to consider and gets them off my back. If they're a stranger who's not asking nicely, my first priority is to keep my family safe.

3. What protocol do you follow with those who want to join you?

Join me? If that thought crosses their mind, then they're probably a close friend or distant family member who doesn't have a place to stay. They come with and will be given tasks, things to keep them busy so they won't panic or get depressed.

Otherwise, people are already going to be acting on their best interests: I've seen how some react in minor disasters, and they tend to flee towards family who live out of the area. I don't see how my group would be more appealing to them.

4. Where do you draw the line between looting and foraging for a resource you decide you need?

Hmm. To me, foraging = taking wild edible plants and small game, both of which are in the woods. Looting is something rioters and thieves do, of which I am neither. I'd say the line is obviously clear.

Nope.

For the sake of argument, I will grant that "fanning the flames" was not the intent, but, vague and general as it is, the thread has produced more heat than light. Perfect for a cold winter's night...

This will be a very real challenge. staying put won't be an option until we're together. getting to my son will be priority number one for me, especially if he's anywhere but with my husband. we'd all do well to try to stay aware that our judgement may be clouded if we're not with our kids.

Bacpacjac said ... This will be a very real challenge. staying put won't be an option until we're together. getting to my son will be priority number one for me.

I understand. I'm a parent too (as you can guess). There will be a lot of stressed out parents in a major disaster.

I've come to realize, after thinking about this, that there are circumstances that could stop us from linking up with our children, perhaps for a long period of time. And in the same way, there are other parents in my city who want to find their kids - but it just so happens that THEIR kids are in my neighborhood. Which means that I need to do a good job of taking care of all the kids in the location where I am - wherever that location is.

If I can't make it back to my kids, then someone out there will hopefully look after them until I get back. And I need to reciprocate by looking after the kids at my spot. That's part of of how our social obligations are going to have to play out. Seems obvious when you say it ... but Yeah. Parents are going to be very stressed by all of this. :-)

Pete #2

I respectfully disagree. There has been much light on personalities and the spectrum of answers to the scenario that you might find in the real world in such situations.

Absolutely right Pete. I would be compelled to take care of the kids around me if they weren't already with caretakers. (Happened last summer actually. A guy in a campsite near ours went into a diabetic coma and his kids came looking for help. One of us went to him and his wife and transported them to a ranger station, and one of us stayed with the kids until mom came back for them.)

For me, the same moral code would go for the elderly lady down the street.

Bacpacjac ... for me personally my biggest survival challenge will be to try to take care of the kids, old people, and sick during a major emergency in Los Angeles. I am ONLY JUST realizing how difficult this is going to be. If we get a major earthquake, a lot of seniors living in multi-story buildings are going to need help with evacuation or rescue. I honestly don't think there is a coherent plan to help them right now. Also, some kids are going to be wandering the streets with no homes ... maybe because their houses have been destroyed and their parents are dead (or just commuting and a long way from home). It is a really big challenge to figure out how we are going to feed these people and get them some fresh water. I do think that there are a lot of altruistic people in the community - so that helps. But I think many of them are unprepared, not too organized, and may be quite fearful themselves after a major disaster.

I think a big part of the "response" will be to try to keep people thinking positively and constructively. Good mental attitude after a major disaster will be vital.

Pete #2

I've noticed that there are several Scout Leaders on the forum,so I'll throw out a suggestion for your troop or possibly an Eagle Scout Project...several years ago we received a community service grant to develop a hurricane preparadness plan directed at the elderly living in the community boundaries our school served.

we identified seniors that lived alone, or needed special care through the "meals on wheels" program.... there was some red tape involved

members of our NJROTC unit volunteered to contact these individuals, and distributed pill vials ("Vial of Life"courtesy Walgreens)to contain emergency contact information, current medications and medical history, etc, custom written for them (paramedics typically check for these stored in refrigerator), and helped them construct a hurricane emergency plan (housed in a water resistant folder) with contact information for special needs shelters, basic hurricane supplies, and a phone tree

with assistance from the Director of Emergency Management at nearby MacDill AFB, we used a DVD produced by them for a video presentations at several community centers and mobile home parks for group preparadness presentations..

Les ... good idea on the Scouts providing help after an emergency!

Pete #2

Going back to some of the original items in this thread, and the possibility of defending yourself with firearms during a "bugout in a devastated city". Here is a news article that provides some food for thought ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12925328

This is a situation in which police officers in New Orleans were convicted of using unecessary force to kill people inside the disaster zone after Hurricane Katrina. Of course, we may never know the exact circumstances of what happened, and what the "victims" were doing to provoke this kind of retaliation. Or possibly, it did involve bad judgment and bigotry by certain police officers. Anyone who has been to New Orleans can tell you that there exist long-standing animosities between some segments of the local population.

The point is ... we don't suddenly operate on a different set of laws - just because we find ourselves in the middle of a major disaster zone. There will be a time for accountability of our actions after everything returns to normal. You would expect that the local police would know the rules for using lethal force better than anybody else - yet the court found in this case that excessive violence was used.

There may be no easy answers when it comes to defense of our lives and property in a serious disaster. But we do need to have a good rationale for our actions.

Pete #2

Great idea Les! It would work especially well in a smaller community, where there's a little ore familiarity with each other and maybe a little less red tape.

Makes me wonder if our local Meals on Wheels is ready to Mobilize in an emergency.