This is my version of the important documents (Blasts) binder or HYST if your familiar with the listening to katrina site. This stays in the top of my gun safe where it would survive a house fire or similar. If we had to Bug out Katrina style I can easily grab it and go. Its legal size because some of the deed paperwork to our farm land in WV (BOL) is legal size. I have in the right side all our joint documents such as out marriage license, house and land papers, etc. In the left are a pair of laptop drives inside USB enclosures that get a weekly copy to for backups and in the zipper pocket the USB cable. In the left are 4 report covers, one for each family member which contains individual papers such as birth certificate, ss# church membership, medical records, etc. This way if i need something for just one of us I can take it out and not the whole binder.



I pulled it out for my weekly backup and thought I'd finally post it.

I need to do this ....

My usb drive stays away from the house though in a locked drawer at work.

There is much wisdom in compiling one of these. Indispensable in a large-scale emergency.

But it's worth discussing risks as well. These are one-stop-shopping for the identity theft crowd.

So, best options for security? Physical? Encryption? Ensuring availability to the right people if you are out of action?

Just curious.

Physical security is covered by the safe, encryption via trucrypt. Then I can minimize risk by pulling out only one of the individual folders if its needed for one person.
If things got bad enough that I had to take this with me then first off identity theft is a lessor risk compared to the reason its being taken and second its going to be carried with us and not out of our sight.

googlemail has virtually unlimited storage, it,s free and the best email service i've tried.
qjs

<My usb drive stays away from the house though in a locked drawer at work.

But services like googlemail/docs are online. If I ever needed to access those documents even a couple G at my BOL would take days to download due to dial up or cell phone data only, too far out for any high speed connection.

I have hundreds of gigs of photos, irreplaceable photos. Gmail and the like aren't suitable for storing that.

my gmail account gives me 7,555 megabytes of storage. So not 'hundreds of gigs' but enough for a lot. And of course you can open as many accounts as you like.
qjs

<I have hundreds of gigs of photos, irreplaceable photos. Gmail and the like aren't suitable for storing that.

I use Carbonite, an online backup service with unlimited storage and remote access to your backed-up files. It's awesome. I have no affiliation other than as a happy customer.

I at 60G of just pictures, my 160G backup drive is getting pretty full so I have to exclude a couple things that are not irreplaceable.
But again, the big issue is restoring, you don't know what download speed you may get where you end up, or in my case I know is dial up and 36k max because the phone lines are so long/old/bad you can't even get a 56k connection there so I'd never be able to perform a restore.

If your going to rely on someone else for data backups then why not rely on someone else such as FEMA for food/water, why prepare?

Why would you have only one kind of backup? Just because I use Carbonite doesn't mean that I don't keep critical files backed up in other ways.

How is opening email accounts yourself and loading back ups on to it yourself; 'relying on someone else'?
You might as well say' using your laptop drives is 'relying on' the drive manufacturer. You need them to do your preparation for you; because you are too irresponsible to look after yourself.'
qjs


>If your going to rely on someone else for data backups then why >not rely on someone else such as FEMA for food/water, why >prepare?

Your relying on that e-mail service to be available and not leak your information.
It seems any discussion on backups always leads to "use service x" and no matter how many times I say, restores will no work someone else suggests "use service y"

What I meant was uploading (and downloading if necessary) that much data is impractical over a consumer internet connection.

This is a good topic. I take the approach that EVERYTHING that's currently in my house right now might NOT survive a house fire. That includes things in my fire resistant gun safe. So, here's what I do. It is not advice for anyone. I'm just sharing.

I scan documents into my computer and backup the scans locally and remotely. The local back up is an external hard drive. (Most people already have one.) The external backup is an Internet backup service that houses encrypted databases. The environment for the databases is way more secure than any database I can build. All my computer backups are updated nightly. The costs for the computer backups is not much, especially if you already have an external hard drive. I also keep the original documents in a fireproof safe at home.

It's all about layered security! If there is another layer of security that will fit into my system, then I certainly have an open mind to consider it.

You need to test your data restore. Can you put a blank drive in your pc, install an os and get your data back out of that online database in a timely fashion. You need your data to be flexible and restoreable. I've been burned before by online services, msn/hotmail for example many years ago when it was still useful lost a bunch of my mail. The "you need to use online service xyz" crowd tends to derail a thread as fast as the buy a mac crowd and don't want to listen to anyone who has tried and found they don't work.
My backup drive is an exact copy of my drive in my netbook with the exception of .ios's and my virtual machine images all of which are legal downloads and are not critical. Then I have a pair of backup drives in the safe that I alternate, so three drives would need to fail before I suffer data loss. Plus my restore time is fast. I've partitioned the drive in my netbook so /home is on its own partition and then the backup drives are setup the same way. So I can install the OS on a blank drive in less that 30 minutes and then either just mount /home from one of the backups and use it or copy it back over or at worst case boot from a live distro and mount my data partition and access my files. So that capability is better and faster than most online services and the few that will actually allow you to access files like that the performance is too slow to do a restore in any useful time. Don't even get me started on the idea of using e-mail as a backup, how are you going to attach and e-mail 29,000 pictures and keep track of that many e-mails to ensure you don't miss one if you try to save your attachments as a restore procedure, and yes there are web sites that promote the e-mail as a backup method, its just not scalable.
For all the most important things, the actual documents and not pictures, movies, mp3's I burn cd's or dvd's and put those in my binder as well as offsite. I have a folder on my drive for each person individually then one for the combined important files.
So now I not only have at least 5 copies of the most important files they are actually restorable. One of those dc/dvd copies if 250 miles away. And one more on my wife's computer too.
Then my old laptop is capable of mounting any of those backup drives and reading the files.
All of this requires no internet connection so in a Hurricane Katrina situation where people had to evac their city and needed to give medical records to new doctors and schools or a new resume I have mine available, I don't have to try to find a super fast internet connection to try and sort through and restore from.
Again I say try it, buy yourself a blank drive and have a DR test. I see people test their preps either through a hiking/camping trip or shutting off all the utilities, but how many have tried a test of your computer preps.
Imagine you had to leave your home and were in a hotel, try to retrieve from those inline backups through that hotels 1Mbit connection shared by 300 guests. Those online backup services are successful because 99% of their customers have never tried to restore. Don't take it personally a large percent of businesses don't either, a large statistic of small business go out of business after something even as minor as one of their main office pc's having a hard drive crash. I work in IT and IT security and DR so I see it all the time. Those services are fine if all you care about is backing up and not restoring. But you can't rely on that infrastructure to be available in any type of disaster, if it weren't for the failings of doing a full restore I'd consider them but its pointless to pay for a backup service that you can't restore from.

I need to do this. What binder are you using? It looks just right for the job!

<mentally testing>

The copy of my daughters immunization records are on a thumb drive at work (v.safe building) but that's the only copy I have.

<test fail!>

A few hints for fire protection:
The main material used in fire walls is gypsum, specifically gypsum-dry-wall. The reason is that gypsum binds to fairly large quantities of water. Water that has to be heated and boiled off before the material will exceed 212F.

You can use this to good effect by creating a poor man's fire resistant file safe. In essence you create a book out of pieces of drywall and place the documents you wish to protect flat between the pieces of drywall. The more layers, and the thicker the drywall, the better the protection. A key consideration is that your drywall book should be placed flat and on a surface that will not shift in a fire so it won't fall open in the fire.

Flat on a concrete slab that is poured on the ground is ideal. You get a triple benefit; the slab is as low as you can go and heat rises, slabs are unlikely to shift in a fire, concrete slabs tend to be cool and a good heat-sink.

Gypsum comes in another form that people forget, plaster-of-Paris. You can make your own heat resistant container by arranging two steel boxes, one inside the other, and filling the space between with liquid plaster and letting it set up. The thicker the plaster the longer the protection lasts in a fire.

There are different grades of drywall too, some being more dense as well as thickness. The thicker and more dense have a higher fire rating.

Its .mil stuff, I wasn't looking for military stuff just a legal size zipper binder which seem to be rare.

http://www.raineinc.com/CatItemDetail.as...&Item=0037B

Wasn't cheap either, then I had to order the sheet protectors in legal size as well, and ordered them archival quality while I was at it.

I'll reiterate the main part of my philosophy: It's all about layered security. Some people here are downing online backup services. Somebody else made this point above: That's ONE layer of security. I have an online backup. I also have many of the same backups the original poster has discussed. Each layer has advantages and disadvantages the other layers do not have.

I don't worry about most of this kind of stuff.

No one is going to care one iota about me proving I belong to a particular church in some kind of emergency.

Nor am I going to need a copy of my birth certificate or marriage license.

Government has records of who is married to who and when they were born. If those records are not accessible, you have far worse problems than the lack of a marriage license.

Medical records can be scanned, but there is no guarantee anyone on the other end will be able to use them in a practical way. It sounds like a great idea, but not many people have medical conditions that make having these kind of records available all that important. There are some people that it might matter for though. The problem is that scanned medical records are just not especially useful much of the time. For instance, you can't scan diagnostic imaging and come out with anything useful.

It might be handy to have a social security card in case you need to find work, but a scan or copy of the card is not going to do you any good.

It's a million times easier to throw away a scan of a document than to generate it out of thin air. Plus, many of the backup systems discussed here are basically effortless after the initial setup.

One thing I have is my kids shot records. I read about those issues to people who left NO, school systems wanted proof of shots before allowing the kids to be registered, parents couldn't get it through to the administrators that they would have had to have all those same shots to be in the school they were in previously.

I would submit that in a Katrina like incident, having to get some extra immunizations is not really a huge problem. But, it is an example of where it might be a handy thing to have, assuming the authorities accept the records that you provide. My understanding is that some school districts even verify the immunizations. If there is no one they can verify them with, the records don't count. I have also read where some districts will not accept copies of immunization records as proof.

On the bright side, I have no kids so do not have to worry a whole lot about this particular problem, and I have no medical issues that might find these kind of records useful.

It seems to me I read about some kind of medical record service where they store your records in some kind of useful electronic form and give you a dog tag to wear so a medical provider can access those records. Don't know much about it, but it would seem like a useful thing. Far more useful and secure than paper records would be.

I've read about those services, they have been talked about on these forums too. You have several issues, most of those services use their own special software which means if the company goes out of business or gets bought by another or changes the file structure in a new version then you may not be able to retrieve those records anymore.
Then there is the issue of the Dr/EMT isn't going to just stick a usb drive in their computer, too easy to get a virus.

I was surprised that when registering our kids for school,they took our copy as word, they didn't ask how or who to verify with.

I suspect school districts practices on verification varies widely. I know some districts in the Chicago suburbs have been known to send a social worker around to check and see if your kid actually lives where you claim he lives because they don't want to be educating kids who do not live in their district. The district next door might do no checking at all.

I believe the dog tag they give you is only a way to identify you to the system. I don't think it holds the actual information on you. It just alerts the hospital that the data is available to be accessed, via the Internet no doubt. I don't know the actual mechanism, and it did not interest me enough to look real close. I don't believe it is something an EMT would be able to access.

I don't know about the file format issue. What I had read one place was it is a standard format that is in use because the federal government mandated it.

I carry a chip with my important information (encrypted of course)and have found it very useful. I would assume the same for the document folder mentioned above.

Having copies of your important documents makes it much easier to get certified copies from the issuing agency. Things like my drivers license number make my local Dept of Motor Vehicles happy when I need a duplicate license.

Likewise when filling out a medical form, I have a record of the dates of various injuries, shots, past doctors names etc.

Perhaps the copies are not legal in some circumstances, but it is much better than my memory.

Nomad.

I actaully have a document that contains all the info. Each scanned image is OLE linked into the page in the document. So basically if I were to loose the document binder or have to leave the house without it and it were to be lost then I can simply open my doc and hit print and its dupliceted as close as I can get without originals. For example the SScard is slipped in an avery business card holder and that page of the doc is a copy of the avery business card template with the ss# card is in that spot. Other things that may not be real important but are in there as well. For example the card that says I passed a hunter's safety course is in there, to buy a hunting license in some states (OH and WV which I live in OH and own farm land in WV and e-ther require taking of the safety course). Thats not real important, if it were ever lost I would just have to go retake the course but that binder is basically a way to organize all those things in one place. So say I want to buy a huntng license online and it asks for the id# from that card, I just go to that info document and pull it up.
Things like insurance id cards are there, say we were hurt in a house fire or torando and I lost my wallett with my insurance cards, that binder has them so I'd grab it to give the hospital.

I have a binder with a folder inside for each family member and one for our house. It's become a great All-in-1 location for seldom needed but must have documents.

I added a couple of business sleeves to included the cards of regular doctors, agents, the guy you call once a year to trim your palms, warranty for the house, pest control kind of stuff.

Trim your palms, ouch.
Thats exactly what I'm talking about, your goto binder. If you had to leave your house not knowing if you would come back and say had at least 5 minutes to open the safe and get the binder like those who left NOLA did you should have enough informarion to continue normal life. Kids need to go to the Dr. you have all the info, from records to a business card for the current or previous Dr. Need to find a new Dr. you have your insurance info handy. Need to replac your glasses because you left your behind, you have your insurance info handy and prescription info. Need to borrow from the kids college fund until insurance reimburses you, you have their bank account numbers handy. Lost your credit card, you have the scan of the back of it with the 800 number to call to report it lost and request a new one. Need to call your insurance company to report your house gone due to flood, you have that number and the policy number handy.
Thats my ultimate gool WRT being prepared, not just to survive but to continue living as we do now with minimal interruption. IMHO if somehting happens we should be able to pick up and move or operate our of where we are with minimal disruption. Power failure, start the generator and keep living, house fire, bug out to a hotel and keep living. Laid off from work, live off food from the pantry while finding another job and keep living.
Had a co-worker who just bought a house this summer and last month had to bug out to a hotel because power was out for a week. His biggest issue was they couldn't print out work for his kids home schooling, I told him he needs to go buy an old portable printer like mine so he could disappoint his kids. Since he had time to leave they were able to pack clothing and such and just live in the hotel room for a week then return home and it was kind of like a mini vacation.

Timely news article.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/28/technology/gmail_outage/index.htm?hpt=T2

Like anything else, webmail needs to have layered backups in place. I use Gmail (sparingly now that SMS is much easier for 75% of small comms) and download/backup all my email to a desktop client once a month. The desktop email client backup is then uploaded to my Dropbox account.

My SO employer's network admin today mentioned the Gmail incident and noted that every week, email servers go down and most do not have any proper backups in place and the end result is 1000's of accounts are wiped out. The reason we don't hear about these is due to the fact these email providers are not as big as Google et al and thusly do not make the tech news websites.

At least with Gmail, it appears that there are backups in place and are being slowly restored.

I was one of the ones that lost mail back when Microsoft bought Hotmail, they didn't ave backups.

Putting sensitive documents online in places like gmail/hotmail etc can be risky because these systems have relatively low security. An encrypted disk is probably a safer location IMO.
I have copied my photos to an old USB hard disk and have left at a trusted relative’s house for safe keeping. Now these are not getting updated, but it does provide a base set of photos; this thread has reminded me that I was going to do an update !
It would be possible to setup a backup regime to automatically (or on demand) copy sensitive data to a trusted friend/relative’s computer using a VPN and an encrypted volume (like truecrypt), but you would need some IT skills to do this. Regardless, the frequency of backup should be matched to how much data you are prepared to lose !

I do use online storage for information which I consider is not sensitive eg: collection of manuals for various pieces of equipment which I own (at least before the fire!), some key family and friends contact details, medication details (including dosage), optical glasses script, medical history for everyone, contact details for banks, credit cards, house and car insurance (include and toll free numbers). I consider this is the basic info which I will need if the house is un reachable or when I’m travelling.

One possible enhancement for Eugene’s document binder could be to include a photocopy of your own AND everyone else’s documents in each person’s binder ?
If you need to you can use the copies to give to authorities and preserve the originals. It also has the benefit that if you become separated, you can still access all the info.

You could include a large size, clear, colour portrait of each person in your family (and copies), this may assist if you become separated and need to track someone down, you may consider some pictures of your extended family too ? Having a photo can be comforting too, especially if you become separated for any reason.

Make an encrypted disk with copies of "high risk for identity theft" documents (SS card, financial statements, etc) on it and a copy of the the encryption program for later decoding. Originals go in a safe deposit box. Place copies of drivers licence, insurance cards, and other vital but low risk documents in the folder in case you have to bug out.

Also, how do you protect the folder against burglary? Do you hide it in plain sight by leaving it on a bookshelf. Or, do you put it in a quick access safe and risk identifying it as a valuable item.

Is it possible to encrypt data on Gmail? Or do you encrypt before putting data there? I wouldn't transmit sensitive data over the Internet unless it's encrypted.

Thats the tricky thing, but remember all those documents are still replaceable, you can request a new ss card or birth certificate. Its mainly a time and conveniance thing, if you have had to evac/bugout/relocate/whatever you wish to call it you don't want to spend time trying to replace things, you have enough on your mind already. Imagine the NOLA scenario, you leave and don't know when or if you will come back. You need a place to stay, get an apartment or entended stay hotel or whatever. You need someting to show ID, credit history, etc. If I were a landlord and you turned up from another state with no ID or nothing to proove where you lived I'd have to think a while to decide if I were feeling charitible because chances are you would stay in my place for a month then go back home and not pay and I'd have no way to fnd you, or you were/are a scammer who says you lost everything to get a place to stay until you get eviced then go do the same scam elsewhere. I'm not going to let you sit down at my computer and download your documents from gmail or whatnot. The purpose of somehting like this is to keep you prepared for anything, I can show several documents with my address that I just evac'ed from, I have my latest bank statement showing I have a good amount of $ sitting there ready to pay your rent.

There are plenty of file level encryption programs if you really wanted to do that. Logistics is the big hurdle there, each time you want to make an update you'll need to fetch the mail, decrypt, save, edit, re-encrypt, resend, delete the old, etc. Plus keeping track of more than 10 or so documents.

I had thought about that but having 4 duplicates starts to increase size a good bit. For many ther ideas search for blasts binder and see what all he has in it. His has not only important documents but also procedures I think NASA would be envious of.
Pictures sound like a good idea, you could say once a year put a new updates picture.

i read an article in the news today that said 150,000 worldwide gmail accounts were accidentally deleted this week. the details don't matter as much as the lesson not to put all your eggs in one basket.

Speculation, ignorance, and lack of expertise. Go to this site and learn from a guy who has been there.



This.

That answers the question about Gmail for me. Basically, I won't be using it to store sensitive data.

You can just hide your encrypted files such as .jpg, .gif, .doc, .pdf etc inside a .WAV file (the data becomes just part of the audio noise floor) then convert into a AAC lossless audio file using iTunes (which hides the Steganos header) using Steganos Security Suite, even the NSA (Oops now they know about it) would be pretty much clueless. You can then store the AAC files just about anywhere such as on an email mailbox, hosted ftp domain, mp3 player, Archos Media player, iPhone etc.

To get your data back, just convert the AAC audio file back to a .WAV then drop the .WAV file into Steganos Security Suite (which will ask for the encryption password). Steganos will then plop out the unencrypted file.

Here is a screenshot. The 'Welcome to the National Security Agency - NSA_CSS.mht' file is hidden in the '01 Golf Girl.m4a' file.

http://www.amfearliathmor.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Encryption.gif

The long password (>700 bits) would be pretty tricky to unencrypt even if anyone knew that the file '01 Golf Girl.m4a' file was even hiding an encrypted file in the audio file noise floor anyway.

Just put the docs (with or without individual encryption or steganography) in a single TrueCrypt container file using a strong encryption algorithm and a strong password. Do some Googling for tutorials on how to compose a truly randomized password (hint: one of the simplest methods uses Vegas-grade dice!).

Then put this 1 file into "the cloud" online, with the original on one (or more) of your home systems. Use Google Docs, Carbonite, whatever (maybe more than one). When you revise the home system master file, delete the old file from the cloud and put a copy of the new revision back up there. No need to decrypt & edit docs within the clouded file, just overwrite it with the latest version. Consider keeping a copy of this master file in your safe deposit box and/or with a friend/family member. Updates to these other physical locations are more tedious but they provide a backstop against losing everything. These updates can be done less frequently than the cloud, at the risk of losing a bit more data.

TrueCrypt really simplifies a lot of this work. The key feature of TrueCrypt is not the encryption; there are plenty of good encryption tools out there. The key feature of TrueCrypt is that it allows you to put an entire directory structure into a single, secure, highly portable file. There are commercial versions of this kind of software, DriveCrypt being one of them.

Keep in mind the context of the effort here. Most of the target docs we're talking about are things that rarely change once archived. We're not talking about data files that get edited every day (though there are simple strategies for covering those bases too). How often are you going to need to update the scans of your college diploma, immunization records, and tax return from 2007?

I generally update my important docs monthly, pull down all bank statements, etc.
Yes, there are ways to get large encrypted files into an online storage, sure you could script somehting out, but the extra steps coupled with lack of ability to restore if your on a slow connection and no gaurentee that it will be there still don't make it worth it.
There really needs to be a good sync program, somehting that will work on any OS, to use the googlemail store drive, so I could rsync like another hdd, that would help with all but the restore time.

Am I correct in wherever you are bugging out (long term enough to require documentation) is going to has a working infrastructure? Public computers with printer can be found at a library, internet cafe, kinko's, etc. Why not use an external hard drive with a USB port to plug into the computer. Position the EHD next to the binder and grab both on the ways out.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Seagate+-+Fr...p;skuId=1305521

Thats what I'm doing now, its several others who are suggesting using online backup services, I'm trying to point out why they don't work.

Online backup services do work, otherwise services like Amazon S3 which has thousands of regular users and business customers and with billions of files stored would not be in business. I use Dropbox and can personally attest that recovering 20 GB of personal files after a hard drive failure does work...

People just need to keep in mind and prepare for the fact that like anything, online backups are not 100% reliable...nor is any DVD, hard drive, USB drive etc. The whole point of being digitally equipped to survive is to have multiple layers of backups and tools at your disposal...this no different then having multiple and redundant tools in your PSK.

EDIT: whatever. I'll keep using online and offline methods, both of which are effective and convenient. You keep looking for that singular 100% solution. Cry a river when you find out it was only 98%.

You keep repeating that. Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself?

Encrypt documents that never go out of 'style' (marriage license, birth certificate, etc) with TrueCrypt and mail to your email accounts. Email and download to your smartphone too.

Easy and free.

Encrypted online, encrypted physical (hard drive, thumb drive) and grab and go folder in firesafe.

Two is one and one is none.

I got this marketing email from Mozy.com (no affiliation), which makes another strong case for online backup:

Thats a case for backups period, not online or offline specifically. I pulled my backup drive out of the safe and sync'ed friday night before we left out of town Sat morning.

Eh, it's a case for online backup. An online backup is basically impossible to bring with you and into whatever disaster you may experience. From the article, the guy who lost out had 250 GB backed up on a thumb drive (not online), but he unfortunately brought his backup with him on the plane. Given the way technology is going, external backups are becoming more and more portable. In this case, portability wasn't a good thing.

I knew I shouldn't have responded to that.
taking the (only) backups with was the wrong move, it still doesn't make a case for online backups.
The point of my thread was to show my version of Blasts's binder which I had mentioned in his thread(s) before. Seems so many want to take it off topic and make it a debate about why I should spend $ on a service that doesn't work for me.

Really? How then should those guys have secured a backup made in their hotel room before flying home: make a backup onto a thumbdrive/DVD/whatever and FedEx'ed it home? Its possible but a real hassle and very likely to be skipped. Online backup was an excellent option in this case.



Yeah, discussions are like that, as opposed to lectures. Discussions go both ways.

Connect to the corporate vpn and backup that way. If I would take my company owned laptop and backup to some non company owned service I'd be fired. Very few companies will allow anything like that and when they do its only trough company approved sites where they have the proper legal documents in place.
The example would only work for a small home office, not any larger business.
That example is the reason why I've recieved a dozen e-mails over the lats couple weeks from various companies letting me know that my e-mail address has been stolen from a marketing company called epsilon. When you send your date off to a third party you loose control.

This whole thread is about personal backups, not corporate applications. It's hard to understand why you don't see the underlying principle instead of just the external details. If the example would work for a small home office, it sure as heck will work for personal stuff.

Everything we've talked about assumes you encrypt the data before storing it anywhere, not just in The Cloud. It doesn't really matter if Epsilon spilled your email address. If you're worried about your files getting cracked even though they're encrypted with 128 bit keys, and if you've set yourself up to be compromised if someone knows your email address, you shouldn't even be on the internet.

Okaaaay...This thread is about backup for individuals (and small businesses I guess). Anyway, note that backing up to the corporate VPN (which you mentioned) is a form of online backup.



I have been using online backup for over four years for my small business and my personal. I have not experienced the issue you mentioned, but the online backup has proven its weight in gold because I have had to restore data a few times. (By the way, I don't use Mozy, which was the source of that email I posted above.)

Except thats not what the thread was about, a few people turned it into that but it wasn't the original purpose

Maybe it wasn't your purpose, but the discussion of online backup is certainly relevant and important. A person's "Important Documents Binder" can be contained entirely in an online backup. That's attractive for somebody who travels a lot or who has no long-term home. (Believe it or not, there are people like this!) Personally, I'm moving toward having most of my stuff online with little or no reliance on physical copies.

Anyway, the thread started talking so much about online backup after there was such a vociferous reaction against online backup.

I was trying speak against it because there were so many that said basically you need to have an online backup no matter what, its kind of like when any thread about computers turns to "buy a mac".
Online backups have a place, they are not the be all end all to backups and won't fit everyone, but the current popularity of "in the cloud" has so many going that route even if it isn't a good fit for their environment or situation. I was trying to point out that fist of all online backups for a number of reasons do not work for me and second are not the answer for everyone.
I'm more self sufficient than most, I don't call a plumber, I don't pay someone else to change my oil, I don't pay geek squad to fix my computers, I don't pay someone else to do my backups, I don't rely on someone else to provide my food/shelter/water if the need should arise.

You have got to be joking with me. Do you make your own fireproof safes too? You won't trust your data to an outside service, but do you ever bring your body to fly on an airplane that somebody else made? Do you store data on your local computer that somebody else made? Did you build your own house and your own car that you rely on for shelter everyday? Do you make your own rope if you go rock climbing? Sorry man, but your generally philosophy, as you're expressing it here, either makes you nonfunctional or makes you a hypocrite.

I'll say it for about the 10th time in this thread, online backup is just one of many layers of backup. There's a reasonable chance online backup could be the only layer that survives a disaster I may experience in the future.

I'm not talking aout not using stuff, I'm talking about services, there is a difference.

Speaking of which - experiences with Truecrypt?