Trying to get back to the original question.

In my opinion there are some serious differences when it comes to SAR emergency overnight stay, and Personal emergency overnight stay.

First, when you are packing for SAR you are not thinking of yourself. As you pack your SAR bag, you’re packing for not only yourself, but for the person or people that you are going to rescue. So you would want your Bivi to be able to accommodate not only you but also those that you are rescuing. So now you’re not carrying food for one, rather now you are carrying food for everyone. Suddenly the truth of the Burden of the rescue comes into play.

Secondly the key to successful overnight stays in the winter is seemingly simple, keep warm and dry. You can keep dry by keeping your body heat contained so that your outer layer is below freezing and your inner layer is warm enough for you to not get hypothermia. If you could manage that water proofing the outer layer isn't as critical, but the truth is that you will never get that situation. An outer waterproof and breathable layer is imperative. Keep in mind that your water vapors (aka sweat) is also not your friend.

A marginal lower body Bivi sack is a backpack that has a stuff styled closing (one of the ones that has a flip over top and a draw string closure on the top) this will allow you to hopefully put your lower body in the backpack and thus use the back padding as a form of insulation. While this works for some, I resort to carrying a Gortex Bivi sack and an emergency Bivi sack.


While I was doing SAR I carried a pallet bag, they ones that they put over pallets to keep them dry, in my backpack. The bag was about 6 mil plastic, and HUGE. I had fit about 4 people and myself into the bag. It was a great mulit-person Bivi sack. The down side was that it was plastic and thus could not wick away moisture and it would get condensation on it easley.


Granted if you are in an area that has greens still on the trees you can make a bedding and shelter. but if you are looking for materials and clothing for yourself I would go bivi-sack and I would ensure that warm layers were available in either the form of sleeping bags and blankets or warm clothing and socks.

Just my thoughts.

Tyber,

Great input. Thanks much.

What kind of emergency bivi were you using?

Blake

www.outdoorquest.biz

I would carry a 12x12' piece of 6 or 10 mil plastic.

Cut about four flexible branches about 10' long (or eight shorter ones and bind them together), arc them like a dome tent and anchor the ends and put the plastic over them. Pile snow all round the base on top of the plastic edges to hold it in place, let the snow accumulate.

I did this once when I first moved here (from SoCal to SNOW COUNTRY!). I pounded a piece of rebar into the ground and wiggled it to anchor the branches, but the ground wasn't frozen badly. Once some snow covered it, it really wasn't too bad, and the difference between inside and outside was especially better when the wind came up... it was almost warm by comparison.

Sue

My current Bivi is a custom built Gortex Gen 3 Bivi. sorry.

At my last WEMT class the insturctor was selling Gortex Bivi's and I picked on up.

Thank you for the compliment, this is a great forum that I love to read, learn and hopefully share what little I know.

Tyber

Very nice Snow Shelter Pics CANOEDOGS.

I have built Quinzee Snow Mound type shelters before but found that you get very wet digging them out, a waterproof outer layer of clothing in a must. They were comfortable to sleep in.

I agree with Williamlatham in his post that a Snow Trench type shelter is much easier to build and you do not get near as wet. Many years ago as a Scout we rolled large snowballs into a circle, put a brush/snow roof on top and slept in that.

I think Tyber has the right idea that if you are doing SAR work then having a type of shelter along for both you and the victim makes a lot of sense. I guess that weight/bulk is a real factor when considering how much gear you can carry.

Last winter I added a 2 Person Bothy Bag to my snowmobile kit. It is a large DayGlo Yellow, Ventilated PU Coated Nylon Bag that you and another person sit in. When you lean against the walls it forms a tent around you to block the wind/rain, while retaining some body heat inside. You sit on the nylon but insulation under you would be important, especially if on snow or cold ground. I have not tested the shelter yet but my teenage son used one as a rest shelter in the rain, while climbing Ben Nevis in Scotland 2 years ago, he liked it. The shelter weighs about a pound and does have some tie loops so you can bush-rig it into a temporary tent.

I guess a lightweight reflective All-Weather/Casualty Tarp or Basha Type Tarp in another option for setting-up a temporary shelter, might be small for 2 people. Mike

In Alaska for Winter Warfare training I used a version of a snow 'grave". Dug a hole in 3 feet of snow, 8 feet long, 3.5 ft wide, open at one end. Covered it with a nylon poncho supported on some tree limbs, covered the edges with snow. Insulated the floor with some more limbs/branches, then used my air mattress (no sleeping pads then). Parka, extra clothing went under sleeping bag. Used pack to close off the open end. Spent a night in this, was surprisingly comfortable. A lot less effort than the guys who made a lean-to. I maybe spent 20 mins tops making the shelter, then helped the rest of the squad make their "graves". One buddy team made a two man grave, using two ponchos - took about the same time, two guys. I can see where a candle would have heated it nicely, but didn't have one. We made them so the open ends more or less faced into a circle where our sled was, we dug little alleyways to get to it.

A lot less labor, relative comfort.

My first thought was "did they spoon?"

Probably b/c I thought of the original dimensions you cited.


I really don't care about the answer, just my mind sometimes wanders.

I hardly dare comment on that, being that this is a family show. Suffice it to say that frosty air is a fair deterrent.

Beyond that, on such matters, it's best to consult urbandictionary.com , the most authoritative and screamingly hilarious pop culture resource on the Web. (Note well: This is *not* part of the family show. You have been warned.)

i think the name of the game here is get out of the wind and into a hole.the lost in the snow movies have someone wandering around until they fall and if their lucky Lassie shows up and saves them.. "good girl--arf--arf--"..i read where in the Russian Army they have a winter training exercise where the guys have to sleep in the snow "graves" in their greatcoats,no sleeping bags..those long wool jackets that were a Russian trademark.they would fly them from the warmer parts of the country to take part in this,every one had to do it as part of basic training.
the idea being that you don't have to be afraid of the sub zero cold,you can survive in it.now i have no more info on this,was it one guy to a hole or a hundred in a huge snow cave?.the point is that it's not as hard as it sounds if you keep you head..

This is where my bivy bag and snow shovel play together.

Digging a snow cave is most likely too much work. I will dig a hole/snow trench or something similar and employ my bivy bag inside that. Of course, any resources available will be used to enclose the hole as much as possible. Tree branches (if any) and skiis are useful for propping up on top of the hole and put snow on top of that.

Make optimum use of the terrain (rocks, trees, whatever), position yourself out of the wind. Location, location, location - just moving a few metres can be a huge improvement.

Also, consider avalanches. Avoid steep canyons with big snow banks, in particular if those are on the leeward side of the wind: It is snowing hard, right - so the risk of those banks starting to move is high and ever increasing. Around here, the word is that you should avoid digging into any steep snow banks higher than 5 meters (15 feet), but I have very little evidence for backing up that number - just common sense.


It also depends on temperature. If it is very cold, making a snow cave (or making my hole more cave-like) takes much higher priority than if it is around melting point (in which case staying dry takes more effort and gains priority). This is because a snow cave will never be warmer than a few degrees above melting point anyway - a huge improvement if it is -15C (0F) outside, but not really that much gain if it is 0C (32F), then it's more about getting out of the wind and weather and you're golden.