Ann: Tjin's comments were not directed specifically to you. Like anything else, what someone reads on the internet is not always true nor accurate and when it comes to climbing or any other high risk activity, nothing beats proper training.

Unfortunately there are people who don't wish to get this training and instead rely on what they see or read on the net...and all too often, consequently suffer the ultimate consequence.

One very positive aspect of this forum is that there is a good mix of people who have a lot of personal/professional experience in many outdoors related activities and will comment when they know that the info is not correct so please do not take the comments as personal.

Ann it wasn't directed to you, but in general.

I did a quick search and found lots of useless and sometimes downright dangerous information. Lots of information found on 'escape' and 'emergency' is dangerous. Some methods are only suitable for experienced/expert users, others are just really bad practises. Just trying to remind people to stay safe and not die trying to copy something they read on the web.

I personally won’t teach people on the web, how to climb or rappel. A wrong interpretation or miscommunication can get someone killed.

Ann, I found your internet search post quite helpful and productive. It was a definite contribution to the thread

I'll stick to rappelling; you are clearly more proficient at searching than I. I guess experience in SAR does not transfer readily to the web.

If memory serves me correctly (and it doesn't always ;-) the riggers or instructors belt was first made for military instructors in rapelling and parachuting who worked in the practice towers. It allowed them to have a "safety belt" when working around the top of the tower. I had an instructor fall in that type of circumstance before the belt was in common use. It was NOT designed as a rapelling tool. Although it is sometimes used as one, I would consider it an improvised tool, like the dulfersitz or the bowline on a coil. The Swiss Seat, in its many incantations, is a horse of another color. It is a good primary tool, possibly not a comfortable as a well fitted harness, but better than a poorly fitted one and just as safe if you know what you are doing (and you shouldn't be rapelling if you don't). It is often lighter, more compact, more adjustable, and can be used for more than just a harness. I carry a length of web in my SAR pack and often in my work pack for simple situations that may arise. I carry one in my day pack in alpine terrain for simple desent on steep or slippery locations.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I agree with you completely. About the only disadvantage to a swiss seat is that it takes more time to prepare and adjust than a harness. Come to think of it, my longest rappel (580 feet) was done on a swiss seat - commercial harnesses were not readily available

A curious thing about the rappel belt - that little triangular gizmo used for an attachment point is really quite unnecessary. If you have an adequately strong belt and a proper buckle, just clip around with a carabiner and you are set.

To add a lighter note to the thread, here's a funny situation I was involved with back in the 80's... it does, loosly, involve rappelling. Or rather, not rappelling...

History: The vast majority of SAR activity circa 1980 in the NH White Mountains was based around volunteers from local outdoor clubs like the AMC. You had to figure that YOU might have trouble some day, so when someone else did, everyone pitched in and went searching. I was up in the Presidential Range, trying to get a couple down that had gotten rather lost above tree line. It was the only time I recall actually being in the first group that "found" misplaced hikers, having gone on such search parties many times. There weren't cell phones back then, or GPS, sat phones, etc, so you just basically knew someone was missing, and hopefully where they started and where they were heading. Maybe if you were lucky, you knew the last hut they stayed at, or which trailhead their car was parked at. Groups would head out along all the likely trails, hoping to find the missing folks.

Ok, so we have this husband and wife, and we are in near white-out conditions. As most of you on this forum know, above tree line, you navigate from cairn to cairn, essentially piles of stones. Without snow, they are easy to differentiate from the surroundings, with drifting and blowing snow, not so much. We weren't roped up, not technical climbing, nothing like that. Visibility was low enough, however, that we decided to send our point guy on a line to the next cairn, which sometimes took a while to find, then follow that.

Well, the poor woman who we were rescuing sees one of our guys clipping a thin line, probably paracord, to their jacket, and walking off into the distance out of sight. She started screaming "oh my God, oh my God, I can't do that!!!". She thought that were were going to start lowering people off the mountain on a single strand of 550 line:-) Fortunately, her husband was the first person to start laughing hysterically, which made it ok for the rest of us to do the same! She didn't really see the levity of the situation for a while, but, eventually laughed about it at the Joe Dodge Lodge at the base of Pinkham Notch. I'm laughing about it again as I type this:-)

hikermor,

I think the ring was added to make clipping in faster and easier (and because the riggers could avoid other duties when they HAD to make a belt for one of the instructors - the ring added at least an hour to construction ;-))).

Jerry

I think a lot what will determine the success (safe) or failure of various rapping styles and devices, is whether or not we are discussing steep angles/slope/spree, vertical, or travel restriction/edge safety.

A Rigger’s belt, ladder belt or other class 1 style harness, might work as a travel restriction, edge safety device or for a low angle rappel. Ideally, they should be under constant tension, as they are not designed to absorb a significant fall, but more to prevent a fall.

Pete

This is an interesting question, and the posts are awesome!!

I have been dong Vertical Rope Rescue off and on since 1990. I have received training from Schools like F.I.R.E.S and applied what I learned teaching S.W.A.T. teams in Mass as well as local SAR teams in Mass. Latter I worked doing SAR and High Angel rescue in Alaska. While I feel confident in my knowledge on this, I do NOT consider myself the all knowing PUBA of Rappelling. With that said here is my two cents.

An emergency Rappel means that you have no option to take a safer or more practical route out of what ever got you into that position.

With the thought of preparing for an emergency rappel means that you are packing tubular webbing to make a Swiss seat and have taken the time to learn how to do put it on. And you are packing rope that is applicable for rappelling. You are hopefully packing locking carabineers, or at the least load rated carabineers that haven’t been banged around (we use to throw them out, or put them to non life load tasks if they were so much as dropped on concrete or rock).

Believe it or not, with the materials listed above you can accomplish a true emergency rappel. Safety will be at a minimal but you can do it.

I have tested a rappel with a harness carabineer, figure 8 device and parachute cord. Before you freak out, it was high quality true parachute cord that was doubled over and doubled, so it was 4 strands gonig through my figure 8 device, NOT what you buy at Wal-Mart that has a very low strength. My cord was rated at a true 550. The endeavor allowed me to go down 50 feet of vertical free fall (there was a safety line just incase) but it took a serious bite into the aluminum of the figure 8 and was very intense. After several rappels the best way was to triple wrap the parachute cord around the figure 8 device and move slowly and smoothly.

Speaking to the use of the Rappelling Instructor belts. I wear one made by Black Hawk (no affiliation, but wish to be specific due to manufactures deviations in build and design) I have done several rappels to test the system. As long as I was against a wall or surface the belt was actually not too bad. Fee hanging would require me to add leg loops to prevent the belt from slipping up and suffocating me around my lower chest cavity.

One thing that I like about it is that if you have to do an emergency, under the armpits, haul of a person or a lower of a person the belt is quite helpful and offers a solid connection point.

If you were concerned about ever having to do an impromptu rappel, I would strong suggest that you pack prussic cord of the 6 to 7 mill diameter or a 1/2 inch tubular webbing, and a "SWAT" harness (they are normally just nylon webbing sewn into a seat formation, that can take a multitude of sized people) a figure 8 device, and a set of 4 locking carabineers. While the cost will be about $110 for all of that but it will fit into a pretty small sized pack.

I have not given suggestion to techniques here intentionally, that is something you should get in person from someone whom is qualified to teach you how to do rappelling and how to do impromptu rappelling.

Regarding the person who is not able to climb, you can still get classes on rappelling that would not require doing any climbing.

I hope that helps.

So, you’re a Jacque Greiff graduate. Where and when did you take his class(es)? We may have crossed paths in the early 90’s.

Pete