I thought it would be better to start a new thread rather than continue the thread drift from the original question concerning belt buckle tools.

Tjin has a point - "emergency rappel" is a bit of an oxymoron. If you are planning to use a rope, you generally will take along a harness and a rappel/belay device as a minimum, plus whatever other goodies are necessary. However, the need does arise occasionally for an emergency rappel. I have been in situations where it was quicker and simpler to just wrap the rope in a good old dulfersitz and do it rather than fiddle with the harness. Correspondingly, on short, low grade leads it is better to just tie in with a bowline on a coil, do the pitch, and proceed. These situations usually arise on an excursion where there is a lot of hiking and just a bit of technical terrain to deal with.

It is worth knowing that there is a whole spectrum of techniques and associated gear that allows safe use of - 1) just a climbing rope - dulfersitz (body rappel) and bowline on a coil - 2) rope plus nylon sling material and rap device - basically several types of swami seat, -. 3) rope plus harness and appropriate hardware - up to and including the gear suitable for very long rappels and ascents (200 to 1000 feet).

In a way, I am fortunate to have started climbing when the dulfersitz was standard technique. Many climbers today have no experience with this useful, albeit somewhat painful, technique. Back in the day, we would sew leather patches in the right spots.

I have used an arm rappel for short, lower angle rappels.

Doesn't hurt as much when you don't need as much friction to
control the descent. Also a bit quicker to remember for me
than the dulfersitz.

http://books.google.com/books?id=O_SNr4L...pel&f=false

US army calls the dulfersitz, a term I had never seen before, a 'hasty rappel'.

The hasty rappel is fine on moderate slopes and short distances and on a doubled line, with its extra width, it isn't to bad. I've did it using a single 7/16" line on a free hanging rappel and the best that can be said was it beat falling. The US army used three-strand rope that tended to cause spinning if you hung free. Feeling like you are being sawed in half and spinning made for an interesting experience. For a very long time I had a slightly pinkish stripe that wound round my body that made it look like I was into S&M.

Fortified with some early youthful experience we took to protecting ourselves using spare socks for gloves and stuffing extra clothing into the crotch and shoulder areas to limit the rope burn. Worked well enough.

For serious rappels we would tie a Swiss seat out of the rope and use a simple non-locking carabiner as a belay device. When I got around civilian climbers I was duly informed that my technique was "suicidal". Then again I didn't spend hundreds of dollars on gear, carry anything but the rope, gloves and a carabiner, or take twenty minutes to set up a simple 70' decent.

I agree that "emergency rappelling" is a bit of an oxymoron. That said, I've done quite a bit of scrambling where I really wished I'd had, at least, rope. Yet I never bring any because if all I'm doing is tromping around the woods for a week with a 25 lb pack, I don't want to lug around my climbing equipment "just in case".

I also get accused of being reckless if I mention that I'd like to bring just a length of rope for those times when I get stuck at steep inclines during off-trail hikes. I see rope + a body rappel as a huge leap forward in safety, but most people seem to think that the lack of a harness, etc., is an automatic sign of irresponsibility.

A few years before I joined this forum I'd compiled a list of the lightest equipment a person would need to do a bit of rappelling. It was centered around a Camp racing harness & the idea that 20' of rope can get you out of a lot of off-trail hangups. I never bought any of that gear, though, because I discovered that trail hikes could be fulfilling & challenging in their own way.

I'm not sure how I feel about those belts with a built-in clip for climbing. I could see how they could give under experienced users a dangerous sense of safety. I wouldn't trust one as a primary safety device, but I'd clip into one in tandem with a harness. By themselves I suppose they'd be safe for moderate inclines, but I'd sooner build a rope seat than use a belt for free hanging.

Some years ago I worked in Canyon de Chelly (Arizona) and poked around a lot. It became my invariable practice to carry 60 feet of 3/8" climbing rope, even if no climbing was contemplated. I used that 60 feet from time to time, even without any other gear, and it smoothed out a lot of problems.

If we did plan to climb, naturally we loaded up with the appropriate stuff.

I think you are exactly right to carry some rope in that situation, particularly where weight is a consideration.

I am far from an experienced climber, but this thread piqued my interest and off I went to research. Here are some links of interest I found:

The matter was discussed here at ETS nearly 10 years ago.

New England Ropes offers what they call "Micro Rappel System". It is worn as a belt that can convert into a harness and contains 82 feet of 5mm "tech cord" along with other climbing gear. They claim it was designed for U.S. special forces. (No affiliation)

From what I'm reading, it appears that special material 5mm cord and even some 3mm is used for emergency rappelling in the military and by firemen, but it is considered a one-time-use item because it is overly susceptable to wear.This thread over at backpackinglight has been informative. No affiliation.

Again, I'm the farthest thing from an expert in the matter; I just like to read.

Rope abrasion is a real problem, even with conventional ropes. It is even more significant with smaller diameters. I have seen an 11mm rope lose about one-third of its diameter from abrasion on sandstone as the result of just one relatively jerky rappel. Fortunately it did not snap.

If I take a rope on an outdoors trip, "just in case," it is just as likely to be used for leading or belaying, applications for which I would only want to employ a "real" climbing rope.

First of all get proper training. Reading it on the web isn't. I have seen some really bad practises on the web.

I know the dulfersitz, but don't really trust it or feel comfortable with. Apparently it is now recommended to wear a harness with a prussik on it, to back up the dulfersitz. Which kind of defeats the use of the dulfersitz...

I'm a sport climber, alpine climber and also do a little industrial climbing. I personally only rappel with proper safety equipment. Not much point in risking my life to save carring a few extra gramms of equipment. Besides you can get a harness, HMS biner and a piece of prussik for less than 40 bucks and it weights not much at all.

There are a few really know mistakes with rappeling:
- Rappeling of the end of the rope: Tie a end knot, big enough to get stuck in the belay device and with plenty of tail.
- Letting go of the rope (To much weight, not enough friction, trying to free the rope, etc.): Make sure you have a back up.
- Anchor failure: find proper anchors!
- Rope abrasion: check how the rope is hanging and use rope protectors if needed.
- Figure of eights braking carabiners: Allign it properly or use something else.

When it comes to the dulfersitz, I guess I have an "advantage"-at the time I started climbing, it was the only technique for rappeling, so I learned all about rope burns and proper padding. I am comfortable with it, but the only sensible application today is for short, fairly easy rappels. One other thing, it is best done with a doubled rope - naturally. The advice to wear a harness while doing a dulfer is truly bizarre. One good, hot rappel will trash the harness completely.


In Yosemite Valley, NPS statistics indicate that rappeling is as dangerous as lead climbing - same fatality rate.

It is instructive to look at the American Alpine Club publications on accidents in North American mountaineering. There must be fifty ways to die on rappel - you definitely need to learn hands on from a good instructor. I was fortunate that way.

I am incapable of climbing due to medical reasons, so I do not see that there would be any benefit for me to receive "proper training". However I do see some potential benefit to others when I serve in the capacity of an Internet search engine on the subject--I enjoy the reading and would be doing it anyway. If others find that quoting Internet information is unhelpful or misleading then I will respectfully refrain from doing so in the future.

Ann: Tjin's comments were not directed specifically to you. Like anything else, what someone reads on the internet is not always true nor accurate and when it comes to climbing or any other high risk activity, nothing beats proper training.

Unfortunately there are people who don't wish to get this training and instead rely on what they see or read on the net...and all too often, consequently suffer the ultimate consequence.

One very positive aspect of this forum is that there is a good mix of people who have a lot of personal/professional experience in many outdoors related activities and will comment when they know that the info is not correct so please do not take the comments as personal.

Ann it wasn't directed to you, but in general.

I did a quick search and found lots of useless and sometimes downright dangerous information. Lots of information found on 'escape' and 'emergency' is dangerous. Some methods are only suitable for experienced/expert users, others are just really bad practises. Just trying to remind people to stay safe and not die trying to copy something they read on the web.

I personally won’t teach people on the web, how to climb or rappel. A wrong interpretation or miscommunication can get someone killed.

Ann, I found your internet search post quite helpful and productive. It was a definite contribution to the thread

I'll stick to rappelling; you are clearly more proficient at searching than I. I guess experience in SAR does not transfer readily to the web.

If memory serves me correctly (and it doesn't always ;-) the riggers or instructors belt was first made for military instructors in rapelling and parachuting who worked in the practice towers. It allowed them to have a "safety belt" when working around the top of the tower. I had an instructor fall in that type of circumstance before the belt was in common use. It was NOT designed as a rapelling tool. Although it is sometimes used as one, I would consider it an improvised tool, like the dulfersitz or the bowline on a coil. The Swiss Seat, in its many incantations, is a horse of another color. It is a good primary tool, possibly not a comfortable as a well fitted harness, but better than a poorly fitted one and just as safe if you know what you are doing (and you shouldn't be rapelling if you don't). It is often lighter, more compact, more adjustable, and can be used for more than just a harness. I carry a length of web in my SAR pack and often in my work pack for simple situations that may arise. I carry one in my day pack in alpine terrain for simple desent on steep or slippery locations.

Respectfully,

Jerry

I agree with you completely. About the only disadvantage to a swiss seat is that it takes more time to prepare and adjust than a harness. Come to think of it, my longest rappel (580 feet) was done on a swiss seat - commercial harnesses were not readily available

A curious thing about the rappel belt - that little triangular gizmo used for an attachment point is really quite unnecessary. If you have an adequately strong belt and a proper buckle, just clip around with a carabiner and you are set.

To add a lighter note to the thread, here's a funny situation I was involved with back in the 80's... it does, loosly, involve rappelling. Or rather, not rappelling...

History: The vast majority of SAR activity circa 1980 in the NH White Mountains was based around volunteers from local outdoor clubs like the AMC. You had to figure that YOU might have trouble some day, so when someone else did, everyone pitched in and went searching. I was up in the Presidential Range, trying to get a couple down that had gotten rather lost above tree line. It was the only time I recall actually being in the first group that "found" misplaced hikers, having gone on such search parties many times. There weren't cell phones back then, or GPS, sat phones, etc, so you just basically knew someone was missing, and hopefully where they started and where they were heading. Maybe if you were lucky, you knew the last hut they stayed at, or which trailhead their car was parked at. Groups would head out along all the likely trails, hoping to find the missing folks.

Ok, so we have this husband and wife, and we are in near white-out conditions. As most of you on this forum know, above tree line, you navigate from cairn to cairn, essentially piles of stones. Without snow, they are easy to differentiate from the surroundings, with drifting and blowing snow, not so much. We weren't roped up, not technical climbing, nothing like that. Visibility was low enough, however, that we decided to send our point guy on a line to the next cairn, which sometimes took a while to find, then follow that.

Well, the poor woman who we were rescuing sees one of our guys clipping a thin line, probably paracord, to their jacket, and walking off into the distance out of sight. She started screaming "oh my God, oh my God, I can't do that!!!". She thought that were were going to start lowering people off the mountain on a single strand of 550 line:-) Fortunately, her husband was the first person to start laughing hysterically, which made it ok for the rest of us to do the same! She didn't really see the levity of the situation for a while, but, eventually laughed about it at the Joe Dodge Lodge at the base of Pinkham Notch. I'm laughing about it again as I type this:-)

hikermor,

I think the ring was added to make clipping in faster and easier (and because the riggers could avoid other duties when they HAD to make a belt for one of the instructors - the ring added at least an hour to construction ;-))).

Jerry

I think a lot what will determine the success (safe) or failure of various rapping styles and devices, is whether or not we are discussing steep angles/slope/spree, vertical, or travel restriction/edge safety.

A Rigger’s belt, ladder belt or other class 1 style harness, might work as a travel restriction, edge safety device or for a low angle rappel. Ideally, they should be under constant tension, as they are not designed to absorb a significant fall, but more to prevent a fall.

Pete

This is an interesting question, and the posts are awesome!!

I have been dong Vertical Rope Rescue off and on since 1990. I have received training from Schools like F.I.R.E.S and applied what I learned teaching S.W.A.T. teams in Mass as well as local SAR teams in Mass. Latter I worked doing SAR and High Angel rescue in Alaska. While I feel confident in my knowledge on this, I do NOT consider myself the all knowing PUBA of Rappelling. With that said here is my two cents.

An emergency Rappel means that you have no option to take a safer or more practical route out of what ever got you into that position.

With the thought of preparing for an emergency rappel means that you are packing tubular webbing to make a Swiss seat and have taken the time to learn how to do put it on. And you are packing rope that is applicable for rappelling. You are hopefully packing locking carabineers, or at the least load rated carabineers that haven’t been banged around (we use to throw them out, or put them to non life load tasks if they were so much as dropped on concrete or rock).

Believe it or not, with the materials listed above you can accomplish a true emergency rappel. Safety will be at a minimal but you can do it.

I have tested a rappel with a harness carabineer, figure 8 device and parachute cord. Before you freak out, it was high quality true parachute cord that was doubled over and doubled, so it was 4 strands gonig through my figure 8 device, NOT what you buy at Wal-Mart that has a very low strength. My cord was rated at a true 550. The endeavor allowed me to go down 50 feet of vertical free fall (there was a safety line just incase) but it took a serious bite into the aluminum of the figure 8 and was very intense. After several rappels the best way was to triple wrap the parachute cord around the figure 8 device and move slowly and smoothly.

Speaking to the use of the Rappelling Instructor belts. I wear one made by Black Hawk (no affiliation, but wish to be specific due to manufactures deviations in build and design) I have done several rappels to test the system. As long as I was against a wall or surface the belt was actually not too bad. Fee hanging would require me to add leg loops to prevent the belt from slipping up and suffocating me around my lower chest cavity.

One thing that I like about it is that if you have to do an emergency, under the armpits, haul of a person or a lower of a person the belt is quite helpful and offers a solid connection point.

If you were concerned about ever having to do an impromptu rappel, I would strong suggest that you pack prussic cord of the 6 to 7 mill diameter or a 1/2 inch tubular webbing, and a "SWAT" harness (they are normally just nylon webbing sewn into a seat formation, that can take a multitude of sized people) a figure 8 device, and a set of 4 locking carabineers. While the cost will be about $110 for all of that but it will fit into a pretty small sized pack.

I have not given suggestion to techniques here intentionally, that is something you should get in person from someone whom is qualified to teach you how to do rappelling and how to do impromptu rappelling.

Regarding the person who is not able to climb, you can still get classes on rappelling that would not require doing any climbing.

I hope that helps.

So, you’re a Jacque Greiff graduate. Where and when did you take his class(es)? We may have crossed paths in the early 90’s.

Pete

I don't believe the integral ring even does that - If I had a ringless belt, I would simply affix a locking biner (or more, if the situation called for it) wherever I wanted it (a lot of times, I would want to be tied off at my back, rather than in front) and it would actually be better than the ring - larger target for clipping in and usable for other purposes. I think it is mostly a marketing gimmick.

Not really a big issue, however, either way.

While I would agree that the Rigger’s Belt is mostly a marketing concept (there are fake one’s out there, so be careful if decide to use the belt as device), I would almost always want to be attached in the front. By being attached in the front, you can assist or even accomplish self-rescue. Rear attachments basically make you a passive by-stander in your own survival. The only two times I have seen/used rear attachment points is with a tag line for confined space and for the door/hoist operator for helicopter operations.

Pete

I would go for rope that is a bit thicker, partially because of abrasion concerns but also because in assembling a minimal kit like we are discussing, I want something that is UIAA rated for lead climbing, whatever the diameter might be - currently something around 9mm. You almost are likely to face a situation where climbing up is necessary, as well as rappelling, and you want to be ready for that. I would throw in a couple of slings, and perhaps a small chock or two - it would depend a bit upon the precise situation. As has been pointed out previously, a proper climbing harness is so light these days that it makes sense to include one as well.

I strongly feel that anyone who learns to rappel should also be briefed in at least the rudiments of climbing and belaying, although for someone who cannot climb for whatever reason, an instruction course can be arranged. I have this opinion because I have rescued several "rappelers" who were clearly clueless and in trouble when the slightest problem developed. It's really all about learning how to use rope safely when traveling through technical terrain.

Ideally, anyone going down a rope will have the training and ability to ascend the rope if necessary. This can be done only with prussic slings, along with the appropriate training. More elaborate gear makes ascending much easier, although we are taking about minimal situations here. This is one situation where I might consider paracord, whichis generally best used for and tent lines IMO. I believe there is a case where a rappeler fashioned prussic slings from his shoelaces, and saved the day.

I think he is talking about the thickness of the prussik. I would rather go for 5 or 6 mm prussiks. Seven is a bit thick and doesn't bight the main line well.

9mm is a bit thin for a single lead rope. 9.1mm's are for more experiansed users and are too thin to use on belay devices as the GriGri (the GriGri 2 is suppose to hit the market with a larger rope range this year). I would rather go for 10mm, which usually gives a beter weight and control ratio and is still smooth in use.

With the added gear of the last couple of posts I am quickly getting to a full rack of gear. From the OP my guess is that the rappel was not intended. That leads me to "I over estimated my abilities and got myself stuck on this ledge and there is a thunderstorm coming". That would probably require a full rack and multiple rappels. Bad place to get yourself into.

The other that I can think of is my hotel is on fire and I cannot get out, I am on the 5th floor. (saw this video on TV, "When vacations attack"). This would be 70 feet of 4-5mm line, pre-loaded on a descent device specifically made for it, swiss seat and a locking biner. Something like this

http://www.rescuetech1.com/rescuetechegressplus-frhook.aspx

You could certainly put a kit together based on a Munter hitch to a biner as well. Swiss seats work fine for the intended purpose. While I would love to have my harness, I will personally take the risk of the swiss seat, or even my instructor belt if that is all I had.

Regards,
Bill

Yes I did graduate from Jacque's classes, I graduated from Eastern United States technical Rescue School and the Industrial Rescue school. Beyond Jacques classes I have taken improvised rope rescue, Advanced Improvised rope rescue, along with other wilderness courses.

@Hikemore,

You make some great points, for quickness and light weight I don't cary chocks, but that is my prefeance.

As memory serves me a lead rope is a dynamic rope, the reason I prefer keeping prusick cord that is smaller is that it is lighter and static line (aka low stretch). yes you can rappel on dynamic rope, but the stretch cna add a little "fun factor," to the rappel.


I think that you are totaly on the spot about everyone who rappels knowing belaying techniques. The reason I did not say that they needed to know how to climb or need to be physicaly able to climb was that sometimes you can hike up a mountain and end up with the only way down being rappeling.


@everyone,

this is a GREAT subject, and one that is very dear to my heart.

It's more of a specialty equipment. Knowing how to use those hooks is a totally diffrent thing than other kinds of rappeling. If you do buy a 'escape' system, get one with a belay device which locks, so you can use both hands to get out.

But i doubt anyone would carry one of these, unless they are rescue workers.

Tyber,

You said "Believe it or not, with the materials listed above you can accomplish a true emergency rappel. Safety will be at a minimal but you can do it."

With a swiss seat, locking biners and rated rope, you can be just as safe as the finest harness and rack of equipment. There are lots of reasons to use the modern equipment, but for most rappels saftey is not improved. As far as I know, climbing accidents due to equipment have increased with the new equipment (not because of it). If the equipment will handle the required loads, stay in place and not apply incorrect loads on the body (all possible with the gear we used 40+ years ago) it CAN be done saftely.

Bill,

That leads me to "I over estimated my abilities and got myself stuck on this ledge and there is a thunderstorm coming". That would probably require a full rack and multiple rappels. Bad place to get yourself into.

Why do you need a full rack? With proper technique this can be done with a proper rope and a good anchor. No rack is likely to be necessary. I have rescued a number of people who only required 20 - 30 feet of drop to get to a safe position. Only if the ledge is on the East Face of Long's Peak would the rest be of great comfort ;-).

Respectfully,

Jerry

Attaching from the rear is not a good idea. While doing a training with a SWAT TEAM we discussed Ausie styled rappels. IN the beginning the TEAM was all about Aussie styled rappels. After we discussed things like Rappel escapes, and Figure 8 devices going "Girth hitch" or capturing the rope, or just getting stuck. By the end the team was a little more open to a new style that I learned from FIRES.

Also speaking from direct experience of having to hang in an industrial full body harness for about 30 min while being the rescued for a Mock rescue. After about 10 min of hanging my legs went numb, after 15 min of hanging I had to ascend into my secondary harness that I was wearing under the first harness.


IF YOU ARE DOING AN EMERGENCY RAPPEL DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUSMSTANCESS ATTACH YOURSELF OR OTHERS TO THE ROPE VIA THERE BACK. AGAIN DO NOT EVER ATTACH YOURSELF OR OTHERS BACK TO THE ROPE.

Coupla things:
I would have to assume that the "rigger's belt" was originally intended as a POSITIONING device, in other words to keep you from going over the edge or our the door in the first place, not to arrest a fall or even hang in.

Industrial full-body harnesses or rear-connected waist harnesses tend to render you helpless when hanging free.

Hanging from a waist-belt only will eventually suffocate you from the pressure on your rib cage.

Fifteen feet or so of 1" tubular climbing webbing will make a safe and very servicable "swiss seat" harness. I came up with a variation with pre-tied leg loops that was even more comfortable.

A single largish pear-shaped carabiner is a suitable descending device.

Never do anything that involves hanging from a rope without a pair of prussik loops. What goes down may need to go up again.

Resist the temptation to use a knife anywhere near a rope under tension. Many rappeling accidents happen when someone tries to free a jammed descender with a knife. Likewise, keep loose clothing, gear and fingers out of the descender. Use your prussiks to unload the descender if you need to clear a jam.

Put a big knot in the end of the rope, or tie into it. I once rappeled off the end of a rope that I "knew" reached the ground.

I agrea, I also had to play victim in a mock rescue (rescue training), didn't hang for 30 minutes on the back attachment, but i felt nausea in a few minutes (don't do this right after lunch) and your pretty helpless.

I have also seen people wearing there harness backwards to do the aussie rappel for fun, but attaching a belay device on your back is not really safe practise. Nor could they control there belay devices and need someone else to give them a firemans belay as their primary belay. All reasons to not aussie rappel.

During rescue training i was taught to connect the primary connection to a victim by their rear attachment for a few specific type of rescue's, but that does not apply to normal people. Since those situations are fairly specific for height work. Besides that is rescue and not 'emergency rappeling'.

I am sure that most of my rappels have been done on dynamic (lead) rope while climbing or mountaineering, the normal practice in those pastimes. Modern dynamic rope is designed to remain relatively static under loads of normal body weight, up to 300 or 400 pounds, and then become dynamic under greater stress, the kind the rope would experience in a leader fall. Rappeling on these ropes is a fairly straightforward experience, given the lengths of the typical climbing rappel, about 150 feet or so.

It is different when you get into longer rappel distances, 250 feet or longer, where static ropes are best. My longest rappel was 580 feet and I was happy to use static rope, a fairly new development at the time. Static ropes are in common use in caving, where drops exceeding 200 feet are commonplace, and in rescue work, where the stiffness is essential for Z systems and the heavier loads common to that work.

If you can carry only one rope, I would carry the rope rated and certified for lead climbing, as it is far more versatile. Static ropes will tear the leader apart in a significant fall; that is the point in using that sort of rope in that situation. There are no problems doing it the other way around.

Needless to say, don't do any of this with rope from the hardware store.

"There are bold rappelers, and there are old rapellers, but there are no old, bold rapellers..."

Whenever I get around to it I will put one together. That was the first one I saw with the hook attachment.

70' of 5 mm, a couple of locking D biners, 15' or so of 1 inch tubular webbing for a swiss seat, and a pouch to carry it in is the basic setup. An ATC (small) or a figure 8 (larger) would be nice if you want a more bulky setup. I don't think I would carry a grigri or other locking descender, but that is just me.

The rope and possibly the biners/descenders would be considered disposable in this instance. Their only purpose is to get me down 5-6 floors in a burning/collapsing hotel with no other route out.

The hard part is finding a suitable anchor. If I were an apartment dweller with reinforced concrete floors, in goes a climbing bolt next to the best egress windows.

A full rack was a little bit of an overstatement. With the proper training you can get by with a rope and natural anchors and still make multiple rappels. Most persons I have heard of getting stuck were higher than that, but then again I am not a SAR tech so I have to rely on mass media.

I don't see how you would control your rappel using 5mm cord, without a special belay device. Not sure if you can get a munter in a D-carabiner using 5mm cord, but i'm not sure you would even want to. A munter uses rope to rope friction to control the decent. Not sure how 5mm cord would hold that kind of abuse.

A standard ATC or a Figure of eight does not give nearly enough friction to hold you with 5mm. A grigri is just useless with that cord diameter.

Having less safety margin might be acceptable in an emergency, but i think this setup will just cause you to hit the deck hard. Before even trying such thing, please also look for the emergency exit or wait for the FD if you are not in direct danger.

Tjin:

You can take 5mm rope and double warp and triple wrap the figure 8 device and that will give you the friction, also if you are truly desprerate for friction you can twist the rope before captureing the "neck" of the figure 8.

Also as memory serves me, I have herd of a supper small figure 8 device that was given to military parchuters that was designed to get them down from places that they may get caught up in. From my understanding, if a parachuter gets hung up in a tree, they can use this figure 8 device, and use either the cord they have in the chute, or that they keep on them. to rappel down to the ground. I need to be clear, I have only heard this, I have never seen this.

Also there is nothing that says you can't flip the figure 8 around and use the smaller side to control the rope, and the bigger side to clip into your harness.

They also now make mini non locking carabiners. I have about 6 of them and they are fun to use and very practical. before you scoff, they are as stong if not stronger than the full sized ones, the only difrence is that they are not good at handeling mutiple lines, or a lot of rope.

For fun I just looked up 5 and 6 mill cordage.

5 mill is rated at 5Kilonewtons (about 1,000 pounds)
6 mill cord is rated at 6.8 kilonewtons (about 1,400 pounds)

A kilonewton is 224.8 For simplicity and safty I always calculate a kilonewton at 220 pounds.

Before we go to much further, we need to also look at the knots in the system.

the average knot takes aobut 30% of the strength of the rope. The best knot is the one you can avoid using, seriously! here is an exaple.

lets say you have to rappel a short 50 foot drop.
As luck would have it you have your handy-dandy 120 foot long 6 mill cord, a couple of locking Carabiners, a sit harness and a figure 8 device. The area is wooded and there is a solid 10inch diamater pine tree.

the best way to attach to that tree is to take wrap the rope around the tree at about head height, keeping the midle of the rope on the back side of the tree. simply doing a gian U shape with the legs of the "U" facing down. this way you can recover your rope when you get to the bottom.

If you fancier, wrap the tree twice with the center of the rope pointing towrds the direction you are going. this way there will be one full wrap around the tree. But be aware that you wil have to pull very hard to get the rope back.

Now belive it or not, by simply wraping the rope around the tree you keep 100% of the ropes strength, untill you hit you belay device. then you start to loose about 30%. Simple math says that 30% of 1,400 pounds is about 420 pounds so you are rappeling with a remaing 1,000 pounds of strength. Since this is my fantisy we will assume my weight wich is *clears throat* 280 so I would be just under ad 4:1 safty ratio. NOT the best, but safer than flying on a plane (comercial air lines are at 1:1 last I knew) FYI, when doing SAR we like to see a 10:1 or 15:1 ratio.

Tyber,

Some of the 6.5 to 7.5 mm one use fire rescue rope (My last was 7.0 mm) is in the 4000 to 5000 pound catagory. Although small diameter standard rope might work in an emergency, I would not carry it for that use. I have carried 7 mm for stabilizing personnel on a steep trail, especially when carrying a litter. It would not be my choice if I were on vertical rock.

I don't know where you got your information on commercial air lines, but they are FAR from a 1:1 safety factor.

Respectfully,

Jerry

Jerry:

the info on the rope that I was quoting was actualy off the REI website.

As for the airplain, that was back in the mid 80's so I make no claime to it's accuracy.

Tyber

Studies of rappel forces, sponsored by the AAC, concluded that typical rappels could easily generate forces equal to twice the weight of the rappeler. You are probably wearing your pack, and odd bits of gear and clothing as well. Most climbers want a 5:1 or 7:1 safety ratio, at a minimum (at least those who have survived to discuss their practices).

There is also the question of abrasion and wear of the rope, which can happen very rapidly, reaching dangerous proportions even during the duration of a single rappel.

I would really prefer to carry a thicker rope - the extra weight is well worth the increased weight.

6mm prusik (the UIAA rate stuff) is plenty strong to support body weight. Have used 5 and 6mm plenty of times to prussik up and to make haul systems. I even learned to use 6mm cord to escape a sport climb route. Having only the main rope connected to the bolt by a 6mm prussik and rappeling of. (NEVER lower off a prussik or sling, failure is almost guaranteed) I do prefer to leave gear, than doing that.

I never learned to double or triple wrap a figure of eight. So can't comment on that. Haven't tried to use the eight upside down either. Just seamed really tricky to me.

As for carabiners strenght. It's should be printed/stamped/forged/lasered on them. I only carry 2 big HMS biners, the rest are all small lockers. As long as you can fit a proper clove hitch in it, it will be big enough to do most jobs.

"They also now make mini non locking carabiners. I have about 6 of them and they are fun to use and very practical. before you scoff, they are as stong if not stronger than the full sized ones, the only difrence is that they are not good at handeling mutiple lines, or a lot of rope."

Source?

I bought them at REI.

http://www.rei.com/product/733586

Thanks.

I found these as well looking online:

http://www.camp-usa.com/products/carabiners/nano-23-orange-118903.asp

I have and use four of the nano's - they are fully rated and are excellent carabiners.

6mm is fine for prussick slings - that is typically about the size I use, but I would rather not use that size for a main rope. On the REI website the 6mm and 5 mm cords are listed as accessory cordage. Doesn't that say something?

Cavers, who do some of the most sophisticated ropework anywhere, in exploring deep and vertical caves, often use thinner ropes because of the weight savings involved. I wouldn't be surprised if stronger ropes become available in thin ropes, but there is a limit because smaller diameters are susceptible to more rapid and dangerous rope abrasion. Perhaps new materials will get around that limitation.

It has to be noted that the thinner ropes eliminate any realistic opportunity to use any sort of body rappel, hasty rappel, dulfersitz. As a hasty rappel becomes more vertical any rope will attempt to fold you in half horizontally. A single 7/16" rope tries hard to saw you in half vertically. Thinner ropes could be expected to saw more aggressively. It pretty much makes a harness and belay device a requirement.

It also makes some sorts of handling more difficult. You aren't going to be pulling on the line without heavy gloves or ascender/s.

The practical requirement for a harness, belay device and some way to grip the line complicate the issue.

There are other methods that are modified munter hitches that use multiple wraps around one leg of the biner to increase friction. In fact, that is what the multiple holes in the commercial descender are made for; tailoring friction just like a rappel rack. I'm thinking try this out in the back yard and tune it until it works properly.

Bill

Speaking to the consequences of abraision. One of my Vertical Rope instructors would take a pice of webbing and a prusick cord of 6mil. He would then have someone hold the webbing and using the prucsic cord literaly saw through the webbing. This would happen fast, VERY fast. A prusic cord under load can chew through webbing in about 30 seconds, if that long.

You are absoluty correct when you say that the thinner rope requires more gear and thought. When I orginaly posted about using 6mm line it was intended to be in a doubled form and for a one way trip. If you wanted to go back up the doubled 6mm cord, you could do that using a prusic loop. Heck you could even cut the material for the loop of the end of the rope you just rappeled on. They do that technique on Purcell systems.

Remember, almost all sub 8mm cord is static cord. Even a short
fall on a piece of webbing or static cord without a dynamic
rope somewhere in the line of connection to absorb force, can be fatal either by rope failure or injury to the person.

Also-

Testing by a university at Calgary showed that in extreme cases, a rappel can generate forces exceeding 1000 lbs.