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#211643 - 11/20/10 06:42 PM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
I didn't get many other pictures this day as I was too busy with what I was doing, but there were a LOT of downed trees and power lines this day. And, I think it easily could have been worse.

Urban + trees + wind = lots of downed power lines.


Dec. 15, 2006 wind storm, Bellevue, WA


Edited by JohnN (11/20/10 06:45 PM)

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#211646 - 11/20/10 06:51 PM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
handle Offline
Stranger

Registered: 11/13/10
Posts: 18
If I really needed to know the answer, I'd get a limb or pole, get it real wet, stand it vertically where it would reach the line, and let the drop across the line. If no obvious power evident, then get a cat or some such to drop in the water puddle. Just kidding.

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#211652 - 11/20/10 07:00 PM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
rebwa Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/25/09
Posts: 295
Originally Posted By: JohnN
A couple of things. In an urban area with a lot of trees, you could become boxed in with downed lines.

In a serious region wide storm, I could imagine help could be several days away.

Second, there are induction testers for home voltages, I can't imagine it wouldn't be possible to detect without actually touching the line.

What are the procedures used by linemen? It seems to me the would double check lines before working on them -- and possible safety measures like grounding to earth.

What are the real working parameters for safety? Is there a possibility of arcing, or is avoiding direct contact adequite?

Are the lines insulated, or no?

-john


After witnessing a high voltage line on the ground, I can tell you for certain that you wouldn't want to be testing it with a home voltage tester. Much more juice than your home system.

When that line went down a couple of years ago on the road in front of my place it was frightening (loud pops and flames) as it kept arcing then it would die down and then arc again. They had two fire trucks down here and the firefighters were not about to get near it, they just sat with their emergency lights on and waited for the power company. When it wasn’t arcing one wouldn’t have been able to tell if it was live or not. Things like this are why we prepare to stay put in our homes or vehicles. I can't think of a scenario where I'd attempt to cross one.

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#211668 - 11/20/10 11:06 PM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Don't even go remotely near a downed power line. According to the source below, the voltage may be so high with a downed power line that a person can become a victim of electric shock without even coming into contact with the line. The source even recommends RUNNING away because by running you'll only make contact with the ground at one spot at a time, and so the current that is in the ground will (hopefully) not flow across your body via both legs.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/7.html

Quote:
...Downed power lines are an obvious source of electric shock hazard and should be avoided at all costs. The voltages present between power lines or between a power line and earth ground are typically very high (2400 volts being one of the lowest voltages used in residential distribution systems). If a power line is broken and the metal conductor falls to the ground, the immediate result will usually be a tremendous amount of arcing (sparks produced), often enough to dislodge chunks of concrete or asphalt from the road surface, and reports rivaling that of a rifle or shotgun. To come into direct contact with a downed power line is almost sure to cause death, but other hazards exist which are not so obvious.

When a line touches the ground, current travels between that downed conductor and the nearest grounding point in the system, thus establishing a circuit:

The earth, being a conductor (if only a poor one), will conduct current between the downed line and the nearest system ground point, which will be some kind of conductor buried in the ground for good contact. Being that the earth is a much poorer conductor of electricity than the metal cables strung along the power poles, there will be substantial voltage dropped between the point of cable contact with the ground and the grounding conductor, and little voltage dropped along the length of the cabling (the following figures are very approximate):

If the distance between the two ground contact points (the downed cable and the system ground) is small, there will be substantial voltage dropped along short distances between the two points. Therefore, a person standing on the ground between those two points will be in danger of receiving an electric shock by intercepting a voltage between their two feet!

Again, these voltage figures are very approximate, but they serve to illustrate a potential hazard: that a person can become a victim of electric shock from a downed power line without even coming into contact with that line!

One practical precaution a person could take if they see a power line falling towards the ground is to only contact the ground at one point, either by running away (when you run, only one foot contacts the ground at any given time), or if there's nowhere to run, by standing on one foot. Obviously, if there's somewhere safer to run, running is the best option. By eliminating two points of contact with the ground, there will be no chance of applying deadly voltage across the body through both legs.
_________________________
If you're reading this, it's too late.

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#211675 - 11/21/10 02:34 AM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
Dagny Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1918
Loc: Washington, DC

I'd treat downed power lines like tornadoes and go the opposite way.

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#211676 - 11/21/10 02:49 AM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Seriously?!? It's a survival site here. So here's the surivival tip: don't freaking touch them. If someone's near them, oh well. Sorry charlie. Good luck. I'll collect your corpse later. No point adding to the body count. Yes, it's harsh. But rescuer safety is priority 1. If you're "boxed in" then either A) stay inside the box, or B) you'll be that guy I just wrote about.

I've always heard live power lines spark/snake across the ground.
All I know is every downed line I saw at work, we waited a couple poles away, called dispatch with the pole number (where we were, not the downed one!), and waited til the power/phone company came out and THEIR guy touched the lines to prove them safe.

But, to answer the OP's line, sure there's a way to tell if it's a live line. Have something living touch it. If that living object dies, it's a live wire.


Edited by MDinana (11/21/10 02:50 AM)

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#211679 - 11/21/10 04:50 AM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
JohnN Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/10/01
Posts: 966
Loc: Seattle, WA
Seriously?!? Nobody said anything about touching anything. Nobody said anything about taking risks for kicks.

I was hoping to gather some *information*, but... well...

-john



Edited by JohnN (11/21/10 04:50 AM)

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#211680 - 11/21/10 05:05 AM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: MDinana]
Richlacal Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 778
Loc: Los Angeles, CA
OK,Let's Make a Quick Scenario,Shall We? Your Pregnant Wife & 3yr.old Daughter are Trapped,Between Downed Powerlines,Professional Help is 4 hrs. away,The sky is Cloudy,& The air smells of Rain,coming soon,Will you still say"Sorry Charlie"? I Think Not!

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#211687 - 11/21/10 12:45 PM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: JohnN]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
Go the other way / don't try it is the only good / survivable approach for the untrained. On the other hand this is equipped to survive and equipment does exist to help properly trained people evaluate the hazard level and respond. Just keep in mind that even properly trained and equipped people can and do die in situations like this.

Any active power line (in the USA) will be carrying 60Hz power and generating a detectable electrical field. There are sensors that can detect these fields from a relatively safe distance. This isn't the little $50 AC detector you get from your favorite HW store but purpose build devices for EMS and Electrical workers. Typical prices are in the $300 and up range and the sizes are not really good for EDC.

The biggest problem with these detectors is that they cannot tell you when the circuit will re-energize and if you are too close when that happens survival is highly unlikely.

- Eric
_________________________
You are never beaten until you admit it. - - General George S. Patton


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#211691 - 11/21/10 02:24 PM Re: Determining if downed power lines are live? [Re: Richlacal]
Eric Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/09/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Iowa
Depending on the voltages involved any direct action on your part is unlikely to help and is very likely to cause them significant distress. Without the right tools, training and a correct understanding of the voltages involved waiting is probably the best approach. Hard call to make, but adding to the list of victims (and going first) isn't helping anyone.

When working with high voltages there is no such thing as an "insulator", there are just various quality levels of conductors. Electricity is lazy and will follow the path of least resistance. You never want to be in that path and distance is the best way to stay safe. Proper equipment and and training lets you work in areas with higher gradients (closer to the source).

Keeping this in mind, look at how high the poles are and how far apart they are. Ideally any thing you would do to "help" would need to be done from a distance of at least twice the pole height or separation distance from the downed lines. Around here that would mean you need to stay at least 60 to 90 feet away from the problem and you should be much further for higher voltage lines. What can you do from this distance? Best choice - call 911 and or/the power company.

After that there are no good choices. For the scenario you describe and assuming wooden power poles (single pole), I might try killing the power lines around my family by taking down some of the poles feeding the downed lines. This isn't a great idea but desperate people do silly things. Not sure how I'd accomplish this before help arrived without a great chainsaw and lots of spare chains (creosote kills chains very quickly). If the "poles" are metal or three legged I think I'd spend my time between phone calls consulting a much higher power and trying to keep my loved ones calm.

Sometimes there really are no win scenarios.

- Eric


Edited by Eric (11/21/10 02:24 PM)
_________________________
You are never beaten until you admit it. - - General George S. Patton


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