#212378 - 12/05/10 04:15 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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It's hard even to imagine that such a raid happened in America. Pretty soon, people will want to ban all self-defense classes that teach how to protect yourself effectively. When there's nothing left, chefs will be forced to use dull knives in the kitchen. In order to stay sane, I have to be in denial about how lame many people in power are.
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#212468 - 12/06/10 02:29 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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What's Next?
Enthusiast
Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 266
Loc: New York
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This article hits close to home, as I live just outside of NYC. It inspired me to make a donation to Knife Rights.
Edited by Jesselp (12/06/10 02:40 PM)
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#212481 - 12/06/10 05:16 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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I too have never used a knife as a self-defense tool. I have used a knife as a tool for cooking, fishing, cutting open boxes, etc. However, I don't blame anybody who carries a knife for self-defense and for nothing else. By the way, I'm 37. I would not be able to out box (or outrun) the 21-year-old version of me. I would need a tool to cheat and defend myself. A knife is always on me, so that may have to do.
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#212498 - 12/06/10 07:55 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: ]
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Sheriff
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/03/09
Posts: 3842
Loc: USA
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Florida is becoming quite a problem state for EDCing anything other than a pair of nail clippers. The law is super vague and says that "common pocket knives" are okay. This law hasn't been updated since 1951 and way too open for interpretation by police officers with bad attitude problems. I've switched up to just carrying a MT or SAK on a belt pouch. My understanding is that the Florida's Concealed Weapons License allows handguns, knives, and other weapons. This doesn't mean that I think the law shouldn't be changed -- I think any competent adult should be allowed to safely carry whatever sharp objects they choose.
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#212525 - 12/06/10 11:54 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Hikin_Jim]
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Veteran
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1428
Loc: NJ, USA
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Well, kind of. The photo caption says "illegal knives" when, at least based on my eyesight, many appear to merely be normal folders not gravity knives or switchblades. OK, so maybe I'm splitting hairs, but the paper is offering a conclusion about the knives not merely "just the facts" information.
HJ According to the way NYC interprets their law, the knives pictures ARE considered gravity knives/switchblades. That's the whole issue here. People are buying and carrying the typical one-handed opening locking knives that are sold all over the place, then getting arrested in NYC for carrying a switchblade/gravity knife. Guys that carry locking razor blades for their work are getting arrested and charged.
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#212526 - 12/06/10 11:58 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 2463
Loc: Central California
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Unless your job reasonably requires you to carry a knife, consider an urban EDC that is as close to knife-free as you can stand. You just do not want to get caught carrying in some technicality or in any of the many zero tolerance zones.
My sole point is to try to let the other guy be the test case.
Yes, this is a limitation of certain freedoms. Yes, there will continue to be test cases and activity in the courts and legislatures. Yes, I fall on the side of clear and reasonable knife laws.
But unless it is your passion and you have the bankroll to play the game, I hope all you folks mostly just "read all about it!"
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#212528 - 12/07/10 12:23 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: dweste]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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Unless your job reasonably requires you to carry a knife, consider an urban EDC that is as close to knife-free as you can stand. You just do not want to get caught carrying in some technicality or in any of the many zero tolerance zones.
My sole point is to try to let the other guy be the test case.
Yes, this is a limitation of certain freedoms. Yes, there will continue to be test cases and activity in the courts and legislatures. Yes, I fall on the side of clear and reasonable knife laws.
But unless it is your passion and you have the bankroll to play the game, I hope all you folks mostly just "read all about it!" The problem is that the most of the knives in the pic are already about as neutered as possible for a practical knife. So, you might as well advise someone not to carry any blade at all.
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#212531 - 12/07/10 12:47 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Journeyman
Registered: 06/13/10
Posts: 56
Loc: New York State
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My reaction to this, is that if you are in any doubt at all about your legal jeopardy, is that you should carry a Swiss Army Knife. There are some good substantial ones, and I think any judge and jury would laugh any case out of court. I would hope a prosecutor would just not prosecute a case against someone with a SAK.
It's a joke I know, but I guess you have to deal with fools such as they are until the law gets clarified.
Tim
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#212533 - 12/07/10 01:10 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Paul810]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
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According to the way NYC interprets their law, the knives pictures ARE considered gravity knives/switchblades.
That's the whole issue here. People are buying and carrying the typical one-handed opening locking knives that are sold all over the place, then getting arrested in NYC for carrying a switchblade/gravity knife. Guys that carry locking razor blades for their work are getting arrested and charged. Can someone in NYC confirm this? I lived there for more than a decade, carrying various types of knives, and even had occasions to compare knives with cops. Neither I nor any other knife-carrying New Yorkers I knew got arrested for this. Some of these people were carrying clearly tactical knives barely within the legal limit (as I understood it). Now as I write this I recall, years ago, checking with a police officer, who clearly knew the difference between a folder and a gravity knife or a switchblade. But that was ten yeas ago. I am inclined to think that the person who wrote the caption for the picture could not tell a legal folder from a switchblade. Either that, or the image was "for illustrative purposes only." (BTW, unless I'm mistaken, I see one or two switchblades in the picture.) -- Da Bing
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#212540 - 12/07/10 01:45 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Bingley]
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Geezer
Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
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. . .Can someone in NYC confirm this? I lived there for more than a decade, carrying various types of knives, and even had occasions to compare knives with cops. . . . That was then, this is now. . . .District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.
¶ “What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.
¶ Mr. Vance’s offensive drew the ire of the American Knife and Tool Institute, which issued an “action alert” and offered to assist New York retailers and individuals charged with knife violations with their legal defenses. . . . Regardless of how we feel, Vance is the DA in Manhattan and he's pushing this crusade. We need push back to ensure it's not a done deal.
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#212541 - 12/07/10 01:52 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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I just had to see a pic of this DA who's causing headaches. http://manhattanda.org/officeoverview/bio.shtml Biography of Cyrus R. Vance, Jr.
Cyrus R. Vance, Jr., became District Attorney of New York County on January 1, 2010. Mr. Vance is a recognized leader in criminal justice reform and proposed a compelling vision for moving the District Attorney's Office forward, with a focus on crime prevention.
Mr. Vance began his legal career as an Assistant District Attorney in the Manhattan DA's Office during the high-crime era of the 1980’s. As an ADA, Mr. Vance handled cases involving murder, organized crime, political corruption, and white-collar crime. After leaving the DA’s Office, Mr. Vance and his wife Peggy McDonnell moved to Seattle, where Mr. Vance co-founded McNaul Ebel Nawrot Helgren & Vance, PLLC, which under his joint leadership became one of the pre-eminent litigation firms in the Northwest. During his time in Seattle, Mr. Vance taught trial advocacy as an adjunct professor at Seattle University School of Law.
Mr. Vance returned to New York in 2004 and became a partner at Morvillo, Abramowitz, Grand, Iason, Anello & Bohrer, P.C. Mr. Vance is a Fellow of the American College of Trial Lawyers. He served by appointment of the Governor of New York as a member of the New York State Appellate Division, First Department, Judicial Screening Panel, and was a member of the New York State Commission on Sentencing Reform. Mr. Vance previously served as a member of the Criminal Justice Council of the New York City Bar Association, the Federal Bar Council, and the New York Council of Defense Lawyers. He was a member of the Boards of Directors of the Fund for Modern Courts, the Sargent Shriver National Center on Poverty Law, and the Alzheimer's Drug Discovery Foundation.
Mr. Vance was born and raised in Manhattan, and is a graduate of Yale University and Georgetown University Law School. He and his wife live on the Upper West Side, and have two children, both currently in college.
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#212543 - 12/07/10 02:00 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Russ]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
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That was then, this is now. [quote]. . .District Attorney Cyrus R. Vance Jr. of Manhattan announced in June that his office had pressured retail stores that were selling illegal knives to remove them from their shelves, forfeit profits from the knives made over the last four years and help finance a campaign to educate people against illegal knives.
¶ “What makes these knives so dangerous is the ease with which they can be concealed and brandished,” Mr. Vance said of the illegal switchblades and gravity knives, which require a wrist flip to open instead of a switchblade’s spring, that were bought by undercover agents.
But, my friend, this is no different from before! Switchblades, gravity knives, and assisted opening knives were/are illegal to carry. (I never looked into the legality of ownership or selling those knives.) The quote doesn't say anything about folders. I'm no lawyer, but it seems they might just be enforcing laws that were already in the books. (Of course, maybe it's not illegal to sell, purchase, or own these switchblades and gravity knives, though it's illegal to carry them, but the authorities just want to take them out of circulation altogether.) The article doesn't seem to have bothered with explaining legal vs. illegal knives! Otherwise why are we all so confused? Anyway, it would seem to me the best route is not to overreact, but know the local laws and play it safe. (I would point out that a Swiss Army Knife is not always a safe bet.) Don't get legal advice from a bunch of guys online either. -- Da Bing
Edited by Bingley (12/07/10 02:01 AM)
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#212544 - 12/07/10 02:12 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Bingley]
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Geezer
Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
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Bing -- I'm not confused. The difference is the DA, not the laws and not the knives. The DA is on a campaign and redefining a switchblade/gravity blade. Knives we have been using and which would be legal in any other jurisdiction are being referred to by a term which makes them illegal -- even if they are not. Political posturing IMO.
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Better is the Enemy of Good Enough. Okay, what’s your point??
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#212550 - 12/07/10 02:41 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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Bing, California has similar language in their restriction of knives. However, it's widely understood that all the folders sold at the Walmart and Big5 stores in California can be carried concealed legally. There is a defined distinction between switch blades (and the like) and legal assisted opening knives. The difference is defined in the Penal Code and further defined in the case law.
In this New York situation, I believe it is the DA that is the difference. I believe the DA would get schooled in court, but in the mean time the DA gets to up his stats on arrests in order to advance politically. "Hey, the new DA surely is making us safe with the increased arrests." If he later gets schooled in court, it will only make him look even better politically because that would simply mean more press for his cause.
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#212551 - 12/07/10 02:56 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: ireckon]
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Veteran
Registered: 02/27/08
Posts: 1580
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Alright, I did a bit more research, and it looks like the American Knife and Tool Institute has some facts: http://www.akti.org/action/new-york-city-knife-confiscation-case-2010 See especially: http://www.akti.org/action/call-to-actio...-from-retailers Let me quote: "What the DA is not telling the public is that his office’s interpretation of a gravity knife is ANY folding knife that can be opened with one hand – no matter how difficult." None of the news articles make this point plain, leading most people (like me) to think that we'd be OK with our folders. It seems that this is a way for the DA to score some political points for his next election, and most of all get millions of dollars from retailers. I doubt the average policeman on the street is all that concerned about little knives, but it would be advisable to exercise caution lest you be made an example. We can write all the letters we want, but I suspect money talks in this situation, and those million dollar fines talk loud. Good thing the DA is on the side of the law. He would have done well on the other side, too. -- Da Bing
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#212558 - 12/07/10 03:24 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Bingley]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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Good thing the DA is on the side of the law. He would have done well on the other side, too. Huh? EDIT: Oh, I get it.
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#212593 - 12/07/10 09:15 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Addict
Registered: 09/03/10
Posts: 640
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If anyone else hasn't noticed 99% of them knives in that picture are From a company called Fury Sporting Cutlery. They produce some of thee worst knives every made in the history of the world for little to no cash. Id outlaw those specific brand knives personally but thats just me being way to observant and off topic of the real situation at hand lol The picture is prolly not of actual knives jacked from stores but most likely the cheapest knives possibly found to make a photoshoot. Tho these knives from Fury are highly popular amongst tourist trap stores for they can easily jack the prices on actual 5$ or less knives to 20-25$ without a common man knowing the difference. I have actually seen it done in a particular chain of stores on vacation very sad. Any who back to topic for yall!
PS Most of the fury knives are like 1-2 inch blades.... so yeah thats most likely the smaller of the bucks in that corner there.
Edited by Frisket (12/07/10 10:27 PM)
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#212608 - 12/08/10 12:57 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: HerbG]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
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An article about knives or guns in the NY Times and no editorial slant? I can hardly believe it! What seem to mean is that their slant, this time and on this particular issue, coincides with your own. Or are you going to claim objectivity?
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#212611 - 12/08/10 01:10 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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This reminds of how, in San Francisco, Mayor Newsom and then DA Kamala Harris did a similar thing with respect to guns. They got their asses handed to them in court. It didn't matter. If anything, the staged crack down on crime helped them out politically. Now, Harris is the Attorney General of California. Go figure.
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#212628 - 12/08/10 04:05 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: ireckon]
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Old Hand
Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
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This reminds of how, in San Francisco, Mayor Newsom and then DA Kamala Harris did a similar thing with respect to guns. They got their asses handed to them in court. It didn't matter. If anything, the staged crack down on crime helped them out politically. Now, Harris is the Attorney General of California. Go figure. Are you referring to the 2005 SF handgun ban or the 2007 Cow Palace gun sales ban?
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Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane
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#212629 - 12/08/10 04:07 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Mark_R]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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This reminds of how, in San Francisco, Mayor Newsom and then DA Kamala Harris did a similar thing with respect to guns. They got their asses handed to them in court. It didn't matter. If anything, the staged crack down on crime helped them out politically. Now, Harris is the Attorney General of California. Go figure. Are you referring to the 2005 SF handgun ban or the 2007 Cow Palace gun sales ban? That's another one. The case I was thinking about was the one I just mentioned above.
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#212632 - 12/08/10 04:36 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Old Hand
Registered: 05/29/10
Posts: 863
Loc: Southern California
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Bing I don't know how far back you've gone in this forum, but Kniferights.org already had a semi-successfull outcome with one of the knife arrests. http://forums.equipped.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=212060&page=1I'm not entirely sure why the DA backed down. If I were in his shoes I would wait till I had a career criminal instead of a first time offender with a legitimate reason to go after. It would be risky setting a precedent with a "good guy" defendent.
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Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane
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#212640 - 12/08/10 05:36 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Hikin_Jim]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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Do you have any links to what you're referencing?
HJ I provided two links above.
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#212642 - 12/08/10 06:19 AM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Mark_R]
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Sheriff
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
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#212691 - 12/08/10 05:25 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: TimDex]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
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HJ, were you not asking me for links?
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#212696 - 12/08/10 05:59 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: Bingley]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2207
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Alright, I did a bit more research, and it looks like the American Knife and Tool Institute has some facts: http://www.akti.org/action/new-york-city-knife-confiscation-case-2010 See especially: http://www.akti.org/action/call-to-actio...-from-retailers Let me quote: "What the DA is not telling the public is that his office’s interpretation of a gravity knife is ANY folding knife that can be opened with one hand – no matter how difficult." None of the news articles make this point plain, leading most people (like me) to think that we'd be OK with our folders. It seems that this is a way for the DA to score some political points for his next election, and most of all get millions of dollars from retailers. I doubt the average policeman on the street is all that concerned about little knives, but it would be advisable to exercise caution lest you be made an example. We can write all the letters we want, but I suspect money talks in this situation, and those million dollar fines talk loud. Good thing the DA is on the side of the law. He would have done well on the other side, too. -- Da Bing Just to be clear, only Knife Rights Foundation is actively opposing DA Vance in court, contrary to what was reported in the NY Times article, and AKTI has declined to support this effort. Some industry members of AKTI are supporting us, however. All the details are at www.KnifeRights.org
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#212711 - 12/08/10 08:31 PM
Re: State laws on knives (NYT article)
[Re: ireckon]
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Sheriff
Pooh-Bah
Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 1804
Loc: Southern California
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HJ, were you not asking me for links? Yes, I was. I thank you for the links that you posted as well. HJ
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