She did just what the SAR folks say to do. Carried a garbage
bag for shelter, and return to, and stay at the place you were
lost.



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2013266584_apwaingallslakehiker.html

Glad she made it out. In a situation like that it's easy to compound a bad situation with bad decisions, leading to worse outcomes.

Three days in the snow with a garbage bag shelter is not a lot of fun. You either freeze or sweat, and as your insulation becomes damper and damper, you do both. Miserable.

She was alive, but had to be treated for frostbite and hypothermia. No doubt she'll have more than a garbage bag on her next hike.

If she had been carrying a waterproof breathable shell jacket and trouser i.e. Gortex with appropriate cold weather gear such as gloves, bivi jacket and hat etc and the ability to light a fire, she wouldn't have needed the garbage bag and most likely wouldn't now not be being treated for frostbite (probably lost a few fingers and toes to the hospital waste disposal garbage bag) and hypothermia.

The garbage bag isn't a good idea and promoting garbage bags as any form of protection against cold conditions over being properly equipped in the clothing dept is a poor headline.

A MVP material is always preferred over a non MVP barrier material in cold conditions as moisture will build up in the insulation materials next to the skin that are working and degrade them to point that they are actually making the situation worse.

Garbage bags are generally bad idea unless using them purely as a wind break. Carrying a woollen jersey is a much more sensible idea.

Should have brought along a proper windproof jacket such as Montane Jetstream.

The Surviva jak is a non starter IMHO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21opH5jFles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5-A2va72Fc

They will probably sell a huge number to the unsuspecting.

Nothing Poor about Survival! Either you do,or You don't!Should',Woulda',Coulda'-Doesn't Really Matter!She used what She had with her at the time!I say"Good On Her!"

Well yes, she wasn't properly equipped for a three night stay. She also should have had a VE-25 tent, 0 degree rated down bag,and at least one stove, plus meals. That way she could have served hot tea to her rescuers. She had what she had, and it kept her alive. Survival is ultimately graded as pass/fail. She passed.

I agree with your point that a plastic bag isn't perfect. On the other hand, it is cheap, handy, and light - easy to tuck away until needed. It has its proper place and it can be useful.

One of the first survival techniques I learned was how to rig up a one-man emergency warming station using a large garbage bag and a candle or, ideally, a carbide lamp. Essentially you cut or tear a tight head hole and slip it on, pull it down around you and sitting cross-legged you light your candle and place it between your legs. Even a fire as small as a candle will produce a lot of heat

It was taught primarily to river rafters and spelunkers, people who are likely to find themselves cold and short on equipment if things go wrong in a big way, but it works pretty well for anyone who finds themselves cold and/or wet. Condensation is not an issue because ventilation is simple, intuitively obviously really, lift the hem and fluff out the head hole.

Yes, being properly equipped would be better. A bombproof tent, down sleeping bag, full set of base, insulation, and breathable shell would all be very good. For even more safety and comfort you might stay home. Central heating, a down duvet, fuzzy pajamas, your latest Netflix selection, and delivery Chinese food would make for a much safer, and much more comfortable, evening.

Come the day when you find yourself cold and wet, and short of equipment your going to thank your lucky stars if you find a garbage bag in a hidden pocket. You can't let the best be the enemy of the good.

I don't see any great danger in people storming the great Northwest after giving up their regular gear in favor of a couple of garbage bags. That said, in addition to the odd mini-Bic or matches and tinder in foil tape, space blanket and small hanks of cord I stuff the occasional garbage bag in day packs, and jackets I'm likely to be wearing outdoors.

Its hardly definitive but this evening news account has more detail in it than the Seattle Times article or the speculation here. http://www.kirotv.com/news/25536602/detail.html

She survived by staying awake, moving constantly, and (I suggest) staying confident and upbeat, living (a la Laurence Gonzales' observations on survivors) to see her kids again. The garbage bag isn't mentioned on the TV segment. It probably played a role, but Ms. Manko got lucky with the weather, and (barely) didn't exceed her limitations. The last part of the news account says her temperature was only 90 degrees when she arrived at the hospital. So there's an end even to luck and pluck. She's from the Ukraine though, tough people!

Not to nit pick or to put her down, I don't - but heading up to Lake Ingalls for a day hike is at least a 5-6 hour affair, a prudent hiker would have taken more gear with them at any time of the year, and she left late in the day with bad weather known to be approaching. Situational awareness...

Quick note: there's another segment on the news right now, that one says she didn't eat snow (!), she drank water from her bottle and from creeks. I think this is the difference in reporters - Gary Horcher who did the online story is a little alarmist, the guy who just did the second story is more level-headed (and is known to actually hike around these parts). He did note, she was wearing sneakers, jeans, and not very much else - at least not much that would help in waist deep snow.

Anyway, I'm glad she's alive, and hats off to local SAR groups (this one had teams from several counties working together on the rescue).

You haven't tried it I take it?

It is taught by many SAR teams, the US Air Force survival
instructors, caving instructors, climbing instructors.

Works way better than a cheap space blanket. It is more
durable and can stay on in many more conditions, such as
climbing or walking.

Dozens of people have survived using a trash bag as shelter.
The candle or carbide light inside really works too. Cavers and
climbers often carry a trash bag in the liner of their helmets.
It is always there, something that can't be said for a goretex
rain suit or a VE-25 tent. One of my friends survived a long wait
for rescue deep in a damp cave with a compound femur fracture.
The trash bag and carbide lamp kept her alive till she could
be evacuated.

Goretex wasn't even considered suitable rain gear in Yosemite
for the big walls by the Park Rangers and SAR. They said they
would
fine people who had to be rescued if their rain gear was
a waterproof breathable kind since it failed so often to keep
people dry in the long term.

From that article, "Manko has frostbite on her legs and feet and suffered from hypothermia, but her family said she survived because of her mental toughness and by thinking of hope and happiness."

It sounds like her mind and mental toughness saved her life. I've been reading "SAS Surival Handbook" by John Wiseman. He says that lack of mental toughness is what does most people in (paraphrase).

And in fact, water resistant breathable materials are designed such that they WILL leak water after being exposed to water for a certain amount of time. As far as I'm aware, nobody has ever designed a material that is both breathable and waterproof indefinitely. Experienced skiers and snowboarders know that if you sit in a puddle of water, then the water will eventually seep through, unless your material is not breathable. I don't even think you can buy snowboard/ski gear that doesn't breathe.

She lived to tell the tale. That's more than can be said about many.

Pretty good for a blonde! ;-)

Sue

IMO, the lesson of the story is not that she could/should have been better prepared, but that even a trivial amount of equipment (a garbage bag) and the proper mind set can make the difference in surviving. She did not come out of it unscathed, but she came out of it alive. There is a big difference.

This is why something like the PSP can be so important. It can make the difference. Comfort? probably not. Survival? probably so.

If true, then the Park Rangers and SAR don't know what they are talking about. Goretex as a material has a hydrostatic head of 10,000mm, which compares extremely well with all non permeable or non breathable materials. i.e. even heavy duty tent materials will struggle to have half the waterproofness of Goretex.

As for a comparison between something like the ubiquitous poly orange survival bag (heavier but superior product to a garbage bag) and a Goretex bivi then real world testing in a direct comparison has shown that one climber died in the orange bag whilst another survived in the Goretex bivi. This was because the moisture which was both apparent in the insulator layers next to the skin of the poly bag user could not be removed by the thermal gradient. The climber in the orange poly bag remained wet and the climber in the Goretex bivi slowly dried out over night. The same issue applies to clothing materials.


Why would I? Relying on a desperate measure such as using an orange polybag or garbage bag basically fails to account for a little forward planning and thinking. If you are going to play in the mountains, to then rely on a garbage bag for cold wet and wintry conditions is utter stupidity. This unfortunate woman was basically at deaths door because she failed to understand the potential weather conditions the mountains can produce, not to mention once again the inability to use a map and compass (even if she had one) before she set out on her hike. The lightweight versus capability argument doesn't wash we me either with regard to plastic survival bags.

BTW I have once owned a orange poly survival bag many years ago, I ended up using it to mix some concrete in the garden. It isn't missed at all.

Goretex clothing (jackets and over trousers) can also be picked up at surprisingly inexpensive cost as well especially when you consider how long lasting these garments are. i.e. I still have my first Goretex jacket - A Berghaus Extreme 7000 Jacket, which is getting on for 15 years old.

I have been mulling this statement over for awhile. It would seem that the NPS might be a bit hypocritical if this is true (perish the thought!), because the uniform field parka for many years has been a goretex garment. Back in the 1980s, they were made by The North Face. All the ones I have seen are tough, durable, and reliable. I wore one out, but it took about fifteen years of hard use. I know they have been used on Denali on high altitude mountain patrol.

Was this an individual ranger's statement or a policy statement in some public document? Do you know of any cases where they actually went after someone for wearing goretex on a big wall?

Goretex isn't perfect, but then no raingear is. If it rains hard enough, you will get wet - one way or another. Arguing about GT vis-a-vis some other raingear fabric is somewhat like the endless discussion of the best survival knife.

The information was posted by the Yosemite park service and writtenup in various climbing mags. They also threatened
to fine those who had to be rescued who carried down garments
for insulation instead of synthetic. This was after a couple
of fatalities where the gear of goretex and down were considered
contributing to the deaths.

I don't suggest you carry a garbage bag instead of a goretex rain
suit, but if you are teaching kids (or others who don't have the
money for nice rain gear or the space to carry it when snowboarding or skiing etc) to survive a couple of nights out,
a garbage bag and a whistle tucked in their pocket or helmet
straps could make all the difference.

When skiing lifts in the northwest, you sometimes see people
skiing with garbage bags OVER their Goretex suits. Those
chairlifts can be pretty wet. A good rubber Uniroyal or
Helly Hansen rainsuit will keep you much dryer than Goretex in those conditions.

I suppose the North Face gave a better discount to get their
name out there than Uniroyal did. :^)

Goretex works well in places with high winds and dry snow
conditions. Since it is a partial vapor barrier, it slows
evaporative cooling and hence slows the ups and downs of
body temperature when alternating between activity and inactivity.

Based on experience, I tend to agree there. An inexpensive poncho is more water resistant than Goretex. You just have to try not to get sweaty because material that doesn't breathe will eventually backfire when you're sweaty (which is not preventable if you're skiing). The condensation and sweat will be uncomfortable, cold and maybe even frozen. You may not feel the discomfort while you're moving around, but if you were to stop and sit for awhile (like in survival mode), then you would feel the uncomfortable condensation and sweat.

USUALLY, while skiing or snowboarding, it's better to use a breathable material (like Goretex). A behavior of breathable material is leaking eventually after a certain amount of exposure to rain. As a general rule, I start to pack it in if it's raining too hard.

The breathable vs. non-breathable argument is kinda silly. Both have their place, and being prepared means having the right tools when you need them.

Here in the NW, and SE Alaska where I'm originally from, the limits of breathable technology are very apparent. You spend all day in the rain, or worse, crashing wet brush, you are going to get soaked to the bone in breathable gear. Doesn't matter how good.

In the snow, non-breathable gear bites.

Neither is the answer alone.

I think one important thing here is that you need to have good base layers that work while wet, and optimally that dry quickly because some times, despite your best efforts, you get wet and there isn't anything you can do about it.

What really would have helped her is fire. Don't leave home without it.

In the end, I think this illustrates that mental determination plays a big role, but it has its limits.

Glad she is OK.

-john


(oh, and I have *three* garbage bags *and* a heavy duty "space blanket" in my EDC bag. :-)

Not silly, the discussion of breathable vs. non-breathable is NOT common knowledge. Here is the appropriate thread to discuss the differences, just in case anybody is planning in advance.

I wish I had the understanding before I learned the hard way. It took me a couple of uncomfortable ski seasons to hone in on WHAT materials to use and WHEN to use it. Plus, ski companies (e.g., North Face, 686, etc.) are always changing their products. It's good to have an understanding of what materials work, as opposed to buying a brand without the understanding.

I think you have nailed it with the needs of different materials for different conditions. What I wanted to impress on folks is how a
simple trash bag can be one of the most useful, inexpensive
and compact pieces of gear you can carry when out in the
elements.

I don't know what her environment was like, but some mountain
conditions preclude a fire as a possibility.

That said, just last
weekend I stopped for lunch in wet blowing snow and found
enough tree shelter to build a fire to rewarm feet while out
deer hunting in eastern WA. It was very nice and turned grim into fun.

If it's pouring rain and I plan to go walking in it, then I will prefer a non-breathable poncho over a $500 Goretex jacket if I must choose.

There's a common notion of always using Goretex because "hey it's expensive so it must be the best for all wet conditions". Based on my experience, I don't find that notion to be true.

Not silly to discuss the relative merits and applications of them, but silly to say *either* one is "THE" solution.

Agreed, education is never a bad thing.

-john

We should also note that besides screwing up (and we all screw up) by not being prepared to spend the night outdoors, that some things she got right (even if by accident).

- Someone was looking for her in the area she was in. This suggests someone knew where she was and when she was expected back.
- She signaled, even if she didn't know it... footprints and red poncho.
- She kept her head and didn't give up.

Given her temperature when she was found, if she didn't get all those things right she probably would have been dead.

-john

And a breathable Goretex Poncho works better than a non breathable one.

BTW Goretex jackets don't have to cost $500. You can pick up a ex mil spec one in the UK for around $30-35 if you shop around.

http://www.strikeforcesupplies.co.uk/index.php?method=stock&id=6026&from=80

Even high spec Goretex jackets are available on sale for around $150.

http://www.outofthecity.co.uk/laksen-garcia-goretex-jacket-p-1140.html

There are of course other materials out there such as Event and Triple point Ceramic etc and a whole new range of high performance soft shells and fleeces. There is even the Buffalo System for cold weather use consisting a windproof pertex and water resistant thermopile fabric. Everyone will have their favourite system.

I will also sometimes also use the 'old school' British army wooley pully and Ventile jacket Combo (being very breathable warm, comfortable, wind resistant and quiet), but will also bring along a Goretex liner in the daysack just it case it really begins to pour with rain. The Ventile Jacket works very well for those cold windy crisp days in the mountains. The downside is the weight of the jacket though.

So, you have personally compared the two in pouring rain? Hey look, I'm not trying to win an argument. It's just that what you said is contrary to my experience. In my experience, a non-breathable poncho will keep me almost completely dry in the pouring rain, as long as I'm not running around and getting sweaty. In contrast, I do have some expensive Goretex jackets (not ponchos though) that will leak eventually. Again, I'm talking about pouring rain, not snow.

Here's an example of the non-breathable, waterproof material that I prefer in the pouring rain:
http://www.bicycleclothing.com/Waterproof-Rain-Jackets.html

Re Goretex:

I know friends who had first-generation Goretex jackets and they really did leak. The seams weren't sealed, and the lack of a water-repellent coating impaired breathability. They were not happy.

But with the advent of second-generation Goretex, factory taped seams, and durable water-repellant (DWR) coatings, those problems largely went away. I am currently on my third Goretex jacket and I really do find them effective. The only drawback with the less expensive 2-ply ones is that they tend to be on the heavy side. Lightweight 3-ply is great stuff, but it's pricey.

However, for those who prefer standard waterproof jackets, wearing modern synthetic base layers and light fleece mitigates the moisture/condensation penalty quite a bit. Given half a chance, these light layers will self-dry from body heat. I sometimes carry an ultralight waterproof on go-fast day trips where the big Goretex is overkill.

It isn't just an issue of the seams. The best most modern breathable fabrics still will soak through given enough water.

-john

I've compared the old 58 Pattern Poncho (PVC Backed Nylon) to a Goretex one and the Goretex one is better all round.



This is the main advantage of using the Goretex and in this respect even Goretex is not perfect when used during high activity such as climbing a hillside. If your not moving then a tarp or basha or golf umbrella works even better.

Materials such as coated sil nylon (i.e. same as used in tent fly sheet manufacture) aren't as waterproof as Goretex, which will have a hydrostatic head of 10000mm compared to say 3000 mm.


As with any jacket it will leak eventually in the most demanding conditions, i.e. through seems, zippers and stitching just as non permeable material jackets will, although the guidelines set down by Gore have stringent testing on all garments before they can get the Goretex label. Jackets using non permeable materials will become wet inside, just to a much greater degree and a whole lot quicker, through sweating, poorer construction quality through leaky zips etc and reduced hydrostatic head of the material itself.

Well, you made some general statements that don't apply to all products. As I provided above, here is a non-breathable, seamless, waterproof jacket:
http://www.bicycleclothing.com/Waterproof-Rain-Jackets.html

I have a similar poncho and a similar jacket. Again, I said seamless. So, there's no need to discuss leaks at the seams. My ponchos are not airtight. So, sweat build-up is not so much an issue. One of them will be coming with me in the pouring rain, not my more expensive Goretex jackets.

To be complete, I also wear an undergarment made of a polyester that wicks moister away from my skin. I also wear a fleece-type insulation layer that dries quickly and is warm even when it's wet. In contrast, if you wear cotton underneath a non-breathable shell, then you will be wet and cold eventually.

Interesting. I must say I haven't seen the writeups to which you refer, although I don't keep with the climbing literature to the extent that I formerly did. Anyway, if this were so, surely this statement would be reflected in the climbing safety section of the park web site. Here is what I found:

"# For rain, use coated nylon, sailors’ oilskins, or the waterproof/breathable fabrics. Take rain pants and jacket, overmitts, bivy bag, and hammock or portaledge with waterproof fly. The fly is critical – it must overlap your hammock generously and be of heavy material, in excellent condition, with strong, well-sealed seams. For sleeping on ledges, take a big tent fly or a piece of heavy-duty, reinforced plastic and the means to pitch it. Then hope that your ledge doesn’t turn into a lake. Do you know to run your anchor through the fly without making a hole? Did you spend more for lycra than rainwear?
# WARNING: Several climbers have blamed the waterproof/breathable fabrics for their close calls. They claim that no version of it can take the punishment of a storm on the walls. Whether true or not, you must be the judge; test all of your gear ahead of time under miserable conditions, but where your exit is an easy one."

This is a bit more believable. In fact, this whole section was a very edifying read - a very extensive and thorough discussion of climbing hazards and the measures that help forestall them - the kind of discussion you might have with a fellow climber who knew a lot about the local scene and was passing on the information to you. It portrays the NPS as friend and advisor and not as nanny. This is indeed a welcome change from the attitude I saw on my first trip to Yosemite in 1958, where things were a lot more arbitrary.

I also looked up references about Goretex in Tim Setnicka's [/u]Wilderness Search and Rescue[u], page 482

"For[/i]storm clothing[i]rely on coated (waterproof) nylon, or Gore-tex in a cagoule or rainpants and jacket".

I totally agree with the comments about first generation Goretex. I had one such parka, and it wasn't worth a pitcher of warm spit. Later Goretex was much better. And nothing is perfect or bomber in any and all situations. Coated fabrics have their place, as do the breathables.

Not a personal knock but I suspect that you picked up the idea that non-permeable materials condemned a wearer to being wet from sweat from Gortex advertising and that you are too young to have extensive experience wearing non-permeable gear, and how it can be managed to prevent moisture buildup.

Yes, non-permeable gear can mean you get and stay wet from sweat, and that moisture can defeat the insulation. But it doesn't have to be that way. People have been stomping around the north woods for thousands of years before Goretex. Long before VPMs, Vapor Permeable Membranes, people learned how to actively manage their ventilation. A popular term from a few decades ago was that you learn to actively "drive" your gear.

In this case maintaining an active awareness on how active you are, how active you're going to be, whether humidity inside the coat is starting to build, and doing something about it like working the openings, or removing layers, to avoid excess moisture buildup is a skill that has evidently been lost. Or at least forgotten about.

For a long time people have known how to actively work their clothes to prevent them from getting soaked with sweat. It takes effort, an effort people who wear VPMs need not expend so much of to stay comfortable, an effort that many people don't know to make, a situation that may cause them to fail to survive, but if the effort is made it can be as effective, even working with a $.50 trash bag.

VPM is to non-permeable outwear what ABS is to normal breaks. It is an improvement over the older technology but it does not invalidate the earlier technology. The old stuff still works quite well if you are willing to actively drive it. Goretex just does much of the driving for you by automatically controlling moisture levels.

I admit that VPM technology has improved over the last 40 years. It has got better and more reliable. There's scarcely a mountaineer or explorer who doesn't use some of it. Even the US military, as stodgy and conservative group as there ever was, has largely shifted to VPMs in their outerwear.

On the other hand commercial fishermen, construction workers, and loggers still use a high percentage of simple rubberized or plastic coated fabric. Grundigs is a mainstay, and it is made of simple and highly reliable cotton or polyester, heavily coated with PVC. It doesn't breath worth a damn so you have to handle the ventilation manually.

I haven't seen that in practice (while hiking and backpacking). YMMV of course.

But I can see potential problems in other situations where you sit in water and mud. Goretex is pretty good when nice and clean, but from what I've read, serious fouling of the outside of the garment can saturate the membrane and lead to leakage.

For my uses, Goretex has proven itself over and over. So I trust it. But that doesn't mean it's the ideal solution for all situations.

(Aside, and a horror story: I was looking at nice North Face Goretex jackets in a mall "outdoor" store, and the retail monkeys had punched the anti-theft tags right through the membrane, 3/4 way up the back! Idiots! Somebody paid a lot of money for a nice jacket and almost certainly got a soaked back in the rain!)

Just a quick interjection to make a few points.

There are good and bad "breathable" waterproof garments and that relates to design, construction and materials.

I will respectfully remind everyone that "perfect" can be the enemy of "good" and having something with you like an inexpensive garbage bag or two, albeit imperfect, is better that nothing and can be, and has been, the difference between life and death.

Finally, WRT Gore-tex, I will note that all the high tech immersion/dry suits these days are constructed with Gore-tex and they are, indeed, completely waterproof when completely immersed or when sitting in a wet life raft for extended periods.

Doug-

Have there been tests on the immersion suits for repeatable use?
I could see a one time use working well, but for example boots
of Goretex with some wear will wet through from wet
grass quickly.

Like any clothing, they may require maintenance from wear and tear, but, for example, Coast Guard Helicopter Rescue Swimmers wear them day in and day out for years with appropriate maintenance. They spend a good deal of time in the water and they cannot afford a leaky suit. Many kayakers and scuba divers wear them for extended periods. I know folks who have used the same Gore-tex socks for years with no leaks. I can't speak to your boots and grass wetness issues, but certainly that has not been my experience using quality Gore-tex products of the like.

In this particular case, a woman caught out without suitable gear, the garbage bag made a critical difference.

Making this into a comparison between appropriate gear, in whatever for that takes for you, Vapor Permeable(VP) or not, and a garbage bag missed the point. I've never used a VP jacket that didn't cost considerably more than $100 and weight more than a pound. A garbage bag is roughly $.50, a fraction of a pound, and small enough to fit in a shirt pocket.

Should you accidentally find yourself lost in the woods, far deeper into it than you thought with night falling, you're not going to start turning out pockets and find a full-on mountaineering jacket. Much less a full suit, bivy bag and tent. Figure fifteen pounds, most of $1000, and big as a breadbox. If you turn out pockets and find a garbage bag you are in luck.

In fact it isn't an either/or situation. I've got bit and pieces of gear scattered about in outerwear I go to the mall in. Shaking out one of the lightweight shells I wear while camping I find a trash bag, a mini-Bic, a leaf bag, half a roll of Lifesavers, half a bootlace, and an acorn. You never know when they might come in handy. I'll be sure to stuff the Bic and the bag back in.

If she had a knife, lighter, and some wilderness skills she might have made a simple shelter and warmed it with a fire. The bag would still have helped but perhaps not been so vital. As it worked out she used what gear, strength, and skills she had and it kept her alive when others might have perished. When a survival situation rolls around your going to have to make due with what you have with you. A garbage bag stuffed into clothing your likely to have when going for a walk might make the difference. You might even stuff one into the pocket of your high-tech Gortex shell. It can be used as a groundsheet, tarp, or pulled over your legs as a field-expedient bivy bag. And even if its not a survival situation, say you stumble upon the mother of all mushroom patches, you have a bag to carry them out with. Lots of uses.

When my goretex pants failed to stay dry in the Hoh Rainforest,
I found that rubber bibs OVER the goretex worked well. The
insensible sweat made it out through the gore pants and the
rain didn't penetrate the rubber overpants.

In a similar fashion, when rain eventually soaks through my
Goretex Hunting Coat, a light DriDucks jacket UNDERNEATH
helps keep my under garments dry and the fragile DriDucks jacket
is protected from brush pokes.

Well, I'm glad she had the garbage bag and she was darn lucky that the search teams found her when they did. With that said, she was totally unprepared to be day hiking in the Cascades in October. The day before she was found there were search teams working both sides of the Cascades as a plane went down on the western side and both the search for the plane and the one for her were called off due to weather. They got a break in the weather the day she was found.

It's easy to Monday-morning-quarterback these things, but I'm continually amazed that people venture into the woods so ill prepared. Anyone that would frequent a survival site like this obviously has a different mindset than the average person but who here would even consider a day hike outside of maybe a city park without at least the minimum survival essentials? I'm glad she survived but she might have actually been comfortable with even a few pounds of well chosen gear.

Here's the thing though: who's going to carry 2 jackets on a given excursion? I'm sure as heck not. In the conditions in which GoreTex will leave you soaked, a nonbreathable garment will leave you just as soaked. But in other conditions the GoreTex works great while the nonbreathable item... still leaves you soaked. I say the GoreTex (or whatever WP/B) is vastly more versatile for the weight and volume it costs me.



You have to take into account that this essay was written in the early to mid 1980's. I know, because it was in the Yosemite guidebook I had in 1988. WP/B technology has advanced by leaps and bounds since then; see Doug's notable info on GoreTex survival suits. However, it is true that YOSAR might still fine you if you get rescued in a storm using down sleeping bags.

Here are a couple of personal data points that are not statistically significant:

- I have been using a Lowe Alpine WP/B anorak (13 oz in size XL) for about 8 years in conditions ranging from 3-day nonstop downpours to subfreezing windstorms. Through it all it has never leaked. Even when the outer nylon fabric soaked through, I did not get the "trash bag effect" and was only mildly steamy inside. In those conditions it dries in minutes when worn near the fire.

- Over the same time period I've been using a pair of Marmot PreCip pants (8 oz in size XL) in the same conditions as the Lowe anorak with similar results.

Miracle garments or blind luck on my part? I dunno, they just work.

I carry both. Poncho and Gore-Tex Jacket/trousers.
Goretex for most conditions and the poncho to put over the top of it for torrential rain coditions.

One bit of kit that is not to be sneered at is the very cheap and basic emergency plastic poncho.

When TSHTF happens, they keep you drasticly dryer. They are also good for shelter building and water collection.

I almost hesitate to bring this up, but a garbage bag, with slits for head and arms, has served me very well on several occasions to ward off pouring rain.

I agree with hikermor,They make Great Poncho's in a Pinch!

Bingo! Light weight plastic poncho supplements the Gore-Tex well. Better yet, the poncho allows airflow to help you from building up perspiration. And, as noted, the garbage bag over can pinch hit for the poncho, although not as well.

Also, a cut open garbage bag makes a decent improvised pack
cover.

But don't forget the poly-pro base layers and the fire. Did I mention, don't forget the fire?

-john