Been working on my Surival Kit and thought about including a crossman C11 BB airgun (a hand gun because of the space it takes) under the category of Food and Water. I understand from my online research that alone this would not be a viable hunting technique but in tandem with clubbing for the killing blow I would like to get feedback on whether this would be a viable tactic for SURVIVAL HUNTING. My idea being that a shot from a BB gun would stun or wound a prey long enough to finish it off with a weighted club. Searching online i find a lot of information for and against the use of airguns for hunting depending on what side of the coin the poster is on, this is the only survival forum that i give any credence to regarding the matter of survival. Over the years i've learned to respect the expertise of the people who post here so I'm anxious to get your feedback.

A BB/pellet gun is a viable killing tool.

A few years ago my son drilled a gray squirrel in the back yard. Dead. Surprised me because when I was young I shot a few squirrels using a pump-up BB gun: The shot generally stunned them enough to allow a quick clunk on the head. The autopsy my son and I conducted as part of preparation for cooking revealed he hit it at the base of the skull. Severed the spine, tore into the windpipe.

Small birds and chipmunks are no trouble to kill outright.

Pigeons, on the otherhand, simply fluff up a bit. Even head shots had no effect. We were trying to rid the office building of roosting birds. After trying some nonlethal deterants, we went with a lethal plan: A pump-up pellet gun. It didn't even make them fly.

A caveat: My shots were all with a pump-up rifle, which is much more accurate than a pistol because of the longer barrel. To effect a kill with a pistol, you're going to have to get much closer.

Thanks for the feedback, to help clarify the question yes i'm thinking of close range. My theory being a CO2 powered BB gun is going to be at least as accurate as a thrown rock (or other improvised weapon). Relying on snare wire and stick traps just doesn't seem a viable solution to me, understanding of course that in a survival scenario food isn't even always the highest priority. Looking forward to hearing from the rest of you.

Why not a .22LR pistol or breakdown style .22LR rifle?

In a word... price. also i can pack 1500 rounds of BBs and CO2 in a relatively small space. As for why a hand gun, because it fits IN my kit. If i were to take a longarm it would be my 20 gauge. But the ammo would take a lot of space and add a lot of weight.

I gotcha. I've never priced any of the .22LR rifles that can be taken down, but I know I have $189 in my 10/22 plus another $60 in the scope (BSA Tactical 4x30).

I know I've been shot point blank with a CO2 pellet pistol and it stung like heck, I could see it killing a pretty small animal pretty easily.

The AR-7 (now by Henry) prices in at $250. I'd love to have one of those if I could afford it. I'd also love to have one of those $250 Katadyn reusable pocket filters, can't afford that either. For water purification i'll be packing one of those flimsy bottles of water you can get for $1.50. The idea being that after drinking the water, I'll put the cap back on, poke a hole in it then cut off the bottom and fill it with layers of sand and charcoal and keep reusing it over and over to filter my water before purifying it with Iodine or boiling it. I'll of coure be replacing the sand and charcoal from time to time as I go.

For water purifying I went with some Potable Aqua tablets, some coffee filters, a 32 ounce Nalgene that was on clearance at REI, and can always boil it too.

I use Aquatabs for water purification. Other then making tea/coffee/food, I can't recall the last time I boiled water exclusively for drinking water. I would of course, boil water in a survival situation if I had to.

Out here in Los Angeles,My Crosman Power-Master pistol in .177 takes pidgeons with 3 pumps & 1 BB @ 30 feet away,Chest shots,on up to thru the head! I dress/cook em' for my Pooch,though she enjoys shredding them herself.I've taken Mourning Doves the same way,& Have eaten them myself,They are Delicious!I've made wire snares from the wire provided in Doug's Kit's,& Have snared 2 doves,2 different times,using a total of 4 snares,I've also snared Mountain Quail with the same snares,but with treble hooks added,& This is Very effective! I've snared other birds as well,& As a Rule of Thumb,I've eaten everything,I've taken!All Birds Do Not taste the same,& None of them even Remotely,Taste's like Chicken!

For expedient water purification i'm using the Katadyn MP-1 tablets, which supposedly deals with Cryptosporidium as well, but with only 24 tablets I'm also looking into longer term solutions, hence the makeshift filter and boiling. Back to the original question, thanks for the feed back on the airgun. I do believe I'll be including an airgun in my survival kit. Eventually i'll evaulate this for myself in the field but it certainlys sounds to be worth a try. All your feedback is greatly appreciated as well as any other comments.

Thanks,

Have you thought of a slingshot. Up here there is always an abubnance of squirrels, marmots, grouse, ptarmigam etc. The birds in particular are about as dumb as a cow and can be approached very closely. A well placed shot that although may not kill the bird, will stun it enough so that you can finish it off.

A decent slingshot along with a tube of 1/4 or 3/8 ball ammo and an extra sling should set you back less then $30.00.

I personally would go with a pump and in a .22cal. That will work good, at close range up to a rabbit. This accuracy level requires a lot of practice,

I definitely prefer pellets to BB's. Pellets have much better ballistics and impact characteristics, IMO. CO2 cartridges are one more item that depends on a reliable source of supply and added weight to carry.

I was just going to suggest this. You beat me to it!

A slingshot with hunting-power bands on it will have a lot more power than a pellet gun. However, a pellet gun will be easier to shoot accurately at longer distances. I would say a slingshot would be good out to 20 yards for a practiced, but not expert, shooter. Much farther distances are within reach with more practice and skill development.

A BB gun - I'm not convinced that this will have anywhere near the power you would want.

Below is a good setup to start out with. High quality. Inexpensive. Indestructable. Use the 4-strand tubing set for practice, the 8-strand for hunting.

http://www.dankung.com/emart/jungle-hunter-dankung-slingshot-iiusalong-handle-p-319.html

http://www.dankung.com/emart/rubber-tubing-set4strand-1745-p-250.html

http://www.dankung.com/emart/rubber-tubing-set8strand-2040-p-232.html

Then go to http://www.slingshotforum.com/ to learn about shooting and how to develope your skills. Practice shooting with GobStoppers jawbreaker candy (cheap, and available at your grocery store). For hunting, you can buy steel or lead shot. Or just find some good rocks or heavy nuts from your garage screw/nut/washer collection.

p.s. - The heavy band sets are for shooting heavy hunting ammo. They won't make a light projectile (like GobStoppers candy) go any faster or farther than a light set of bands. So practice your shooting to gain accuracy with light bands.

Nothing inherently wrong with .177 pellet guns. There are some that have interchangeable .177 and .22 barrels. Same power but different presentations. Ive been told that difference is that the power being the same the .177 is better at close range where the supersonic velocity can cause shock. Particularly if you use hollow point pellets. The .22 pellets are heavier and slower. They carry farther but also drop more.

Interesting is that .177 pellets from a magnum power rifle, at better than 1000 fps, void the warranty on many commercial targets. The smaller high velocity pellets concentrate the energy so much that even with soft lead pellets the steel striker plates get pitted. A bit of steel gets vaporized in the impact. The lower velocity and wider spread of .22 pellets are not so destructive.

It also has to be noted that pellets guns are something of a risk for lead exposure. Particularly if used indoors. The high velocity impacts literally vaporized some of the lead. If you breath or eat the very fine powder created when the metal cools you, or your kids, can suffer. Smaller animals, and humans, are more vulnerable. Watch the air flow if you shoot indoors. Wash your hands after shooting or handling lead pellets. Take precautions so kids and pets don't get exposed to the lead dust. IMHO it is not any reason run away or not to shoot. Just be aware of the issue and take common sense precautions.

On light game, birds and squirrels, which don't have much meat to absorb the energy, you might try hollow point pellets. Less penetration and more impact. Pointed hunting pellets designed for penetration can travel right through light game. Potentially leaving them wounded to die slowly. I've also found that shooting squirrels it is often easier to go for a body shot. Below the arms and aimed at heart and lungs. The sweet spot is a slightly larger than a head shot so a humane kill is more likely. Tear a hole in the heart and/or lung/s and they drop. A cross-body shot with a hollow point makes the end quick.

If the gun you shoot is designed for pellets don't shoot BBs, even if the maker says you can. If you look down the bore, of an unloaded gun of course, and see rifling your better off sticking to lead pellets. BB guns don't have rifling. BBs are so hard that they flatten the rifling. Once the rifling is damaged pellets won't spin up properly and accuracy will suffer.

Here's my 2 cents.....I have harvested more small game with my break-barrel Winchester .177 pellet rifle than with all of the firearms I own put together. I use Copperhead lead hunting pellets, and I have consistantly taken squirrels and large rabbits at 25 yards or more.

I have owned/tried various BB guns, and they are fun to shoot cans with but as a survival tool, they don't have the range or power to justify the weight. I have a Daisy BB gun, and I use it to keep squirrels from building nests in my maple trees. The BB just stings them.

I also cannot recommend any of the short-barreled CO2 pistols I have tried for three reasons: they are extremely short range, they are hard to aim accurately, and powerlets are big and clinky and when they're gone the pistol becomes a paperweight.

My advice echos what a couple of others have said: If you can't afford a good pellet gun right now, buy a good quality hunting slingshot. You can use cheap marbles as ammo and practice with bags of round hard candy. Here is a picture of a folding Marksman hunting slingshot like the one I have carried for many years in my rucksack. You can buy them online for under $10. I also carry a spare powerband ($3.50) and several good quality regular rubber bands in an altoid tin in my small backwoods kit so I can make an emergency slingshot from a tree branch and use round river gravel as ammo.

Practice is the key word. You be amazed at how good you can be with a slingshot.

I have a pump action crossman bb gun that I use pellets for small birds. A dozen pumps is more than enough to take any small bird and have taken squirrel with a few more.

Lately I have been practicing with my slingshot in the backyard. I'm using paint pellets for practice and have whatever metal balls I bought with the slingshot for actual use, which so far has just been in practice anyway.

Though I agree you can kill small game with a BB or Pellet gun, I don't think I'd pack one for survival. They're too inconsistent and unreliable, in my experience, to be worth the weight. I'd either endure the cost and weight of a powder powered firearm, or, skip it all together. There are other ways to kill game, traps, slingshots, etc, that are potentially more reliable. In addition, for short term survival scenarios, the sort I think many of us prepare for, packing a few thousand calories would easily get you through a few days. Furthermore, you can eat a power bar or what have you even if you're injured, you may not be able to get out and hunt.

Beyond a few days, over which you probably don't need food anyway, the effort that goes into shooting a rabbit or a squirrel may cost more energy and risk more injury, etc, than it is worth. Shooting larger game, where available, would yield more calories.

Of course people will disagree with me, and I don't care. I'm merely stating what I'd do.

On the reliability mentioned, I've stored slingshots, bb guns (pump, spring, and CO2), crossbows, and firearms, for years unused. The only things that consistently works after long term storage in relatively dry space are firearms and spring loaded pellet guns. The CO2 guns inevitably have gasket failures, as do the pumps. The rubber rots of slingshots. The crossbow was a low quality one, maybe a better quality one would last.

Even an inexpensive spring-piston type pellet guns are the long distance runners. Experience spring-gun shooters consider a gun that has had 100,000 pellets run through it 'broken in'. At 100,000 rounds most firearms are well past their prime or worn out.

Pellet guns definitely have their limitations in power and range. But for light game at short ranges, pest control, and recreation or practice shooting they are bargains.

Norinco makes a clone of the Browning .22 takedown. The price is ridiculously cheap (at least in Argentina)and it works fine. A .22 is a quantum leap from any type of air gun. Any cartridge gun will be lighter than an air gun of similar performance and a .22 will not only enable you to hunt larger animals but will also serve as a more than adequate defensive weapon.

First, there are firearms that withstand over 100,000 rounds (Glock, Kreighoff, some Brownings), but, who cares? I hope we can all agree that for hunting purposes 100,000 rounds is a meaningless number. If I hunted carefully and in the right terrain I could probably feed myself for the rest of my life (lets say 50 years) by firing no more than 1,200 rounds. That'd be one large game animal a month for 50 years. Any reasonably quality firearm can withstand that. Let's say instead I had to fire 12,000 rounds, 10 rounds per month, any reasonable firearm could withstand that as well.

That said, if you want to use a BB gun for survival purposes, do it, don't let me stop you (after all in I'd consider going w/o any sort of gun at all).

The Crossman C11 BB airgun would be totally unsuitable for hunting as you don't get much meat on a sparrow. For hunting rabbits and other small game you really need a bare minimum of 10-12 ft lbs energy to be humane whilst hunting small game. I doubt if the Crossman will get you 1-2 ft lbs energy at around 10-15 metres. (assuming 50-80 BBs per 12gram CO2 cartridge). The general rule is that with a minimum of 10-12ft lbs energy in .22 pellet you need to compensate somewhat with better accuracy for these very low ballistic energies. The Crossman C11 BB airgun will have poor accuracy compared to something like the classic Webley Tempest .22 air pistol (3-4 ft lbs). The Webley Tempest .22 would be unacceptable for hunting.

A more suitable alternative would be a .22 Magnum version of the Cricket Hunter Pistol. This would give a vastly more powerful hunting alternative firepower.

http://www.crickett.com/crickett_hunterpistol.php

If you are going to stick with a cheap air rifle CO2 solution then perhaps the QB78 .22 pellet rifle with an Archer XP tune kit (takes the power up to around 12ft lbs). The QB78 air rifle is reasonably lightweight and quite accurate, but will only give you around 25-30 shots per pair of CO2 12gm cartridges.

http://www.archerairguns.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=IBQB78D

http://www.archerairguns.com/QB78-XP-Tune-Kit-p/xptunekit.htm

In the UK anything above 12 ft lbs energy requires a fire arms license, even for a pellet air gun.

Around these parts(Continental U.S.) Sparrows are Rarily alone,Including English Sparrows,That said,10 Sparrows would provide a meal!Just about any BB-gun will do,& Since we happen to be on this side of the pond,No Worries as per-psi for the BB/Pellet gun!I had a Red-Ryder as a kid,& though my Karma suffered,Almost everything I Tagged,Most certainly Did Not,On some occasions,such as Blue Jays/Brown Birds,a 2nd shot did the trick!Now apply that to survival,& One should not go Hungry,for long,Of course that also depends on Where You'll be doing your survival! Anywhere in Michigan,short of Severe Weather/Squalls,You would be Good to Go!Don't forget that back-up fishing kit,&Good Luck!

I think a CO2 pellet pistol is a terrible choice. CO2 cartridges are clunky to have to carry around and keep track of in a survival situation. Once they're gone, your pistol is a club. If it just absolutely has to be a pellet gun, and just absolutely has to be a pistol, then a pump like the 1377 is the way to go.
http://www.pyramydair.com/p/crosman-1377-pump-pistol.shtml

A .22 rimfire is a much better choice. Pistol still wouldn't be my first, but there are a few around the $200 mark that can be found. Browning Buckmarks are numerous, can be found used, and are hellishly accurate and durable. Read some reviews.

An idea for a simple, light, and small rifle would be a youth .22, like a Crickett or Chipmunk. Small and light enough that you could stash it in most backpacks fairly easily. And you would have the benefit of an "easy to shoot accurately" rifle. (I even saw one one time that someone had cut the stock and artfully attached a folding stock.)

I bought my son a Henry Mini Bolt (kind of a Cadillac of single shot youth .22s at $200 + tax) a few months ago. We're both having a blast with it, already more than 250 cheap .22lr thru it. Just a fun, tiny, lightweight gun. It slips into the hydration pouch of one of my backpacks with about 4" of barrel sticking out.

You have a veerrry wide selection of .22 power levels: from CCI Velocitors (have the power to take deer with proper shot placement) to 20gr Colibri. I bought a brick of the Colibri and have already put a couple of boxes thru the Mini Bolt. Super quiet, the loudest noise is the bullet hitting the target. It really is like shooting a good airgun, only quieter (quieter than a CO2 pellet pistol), and with the wallop of a 20 grain bullet - good for up to squirrel. CCI CB Longs up the power and bullet weight a little - good up to feral cat (we used to have a feral cat problem, but no longer, and I mostly used CB longs.) A couple of boxes of mixed power types weigh little and will give you a wide range of humane kills. I really think it's the way to go. Look at a good selection of .22 on ammotogo.com.
Colibri ammo:
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_in...mmo-solid-point

Just my $2 and .02 cents.

lukus

one of the best examples of weapon choice in a canoe adventure that turned into a survival walk out was the Hubbard and Wallace 1902 trip into what was then unknown parts of Labrador.along with their guide George Elson they went into what they thought would be Caribou hunting grounds so they had high powered rifles.along with long barrel 22's for pot shooting that was all they had against good advice to have a shotgun.no Caribou were found in any large numbers and only one was shot.the 22 got a goose or two and if they had the shotgun they could have got many more.it was one of those "three went in,two came out"story's.many mistakes and some very bad luck was also involved but with the right gun they all could have got enough meat to hold off starvation and get everyone out.i always suggest "the lure of the labrador wild" as a good read for anyone who spends anytime in the outdoors.

My survival rifle is a Kel-Tec SU-16B. It folds up, is extremely reliable and I hit what I shoot at with it. The ammo is a lot heavier and bulkier than .22LR, but I also have a wider variety of game that I could theoretically take with it. In .22LR, my choice is a Ruger 10/22 with a youth stock and fiber optic sights.

OK..how about this?



i'm out in the wilds on my own for how knows how long,the food is getting really low and just fish is not making it.in real life this was a week into a two week solo canoe trip and i had more than enough to eat not to mention "fun food" like cookies and popcorn.but lets say i need to kill that deer--see it across the bay in the red circle--about 65 yards by Google map measure--
even over open sights with a 30-30 i would not want to stake my life on that shot..by the way this deer was really tame.it just browsed around while i sat and had lunch and took photos.so a air pistol?.shotgun? old surplus Enfield?..modern 280 with red dot sights?..sneak up on it after a six hour stalk and leap out of tree with a--name you favorite knife here--and cut it's throat??
ok i'm getting off track here but what do you think??

Looks like it's a long shot.....too long for .22 or shotgun for me. Nice picture though. I think I'm going to take your advice and get a copy of the book "the lure of the labrador wild" to read when the cold winds blow this winter.

K, I'll bite. Hypothetically, I would like one of those well-sighted in Savage over and under combos with a .223 on the top and a 20 guage or whatever on the bottom with some large shot, 00 buck maybe. I would feel fairly comfortable under those circumstances that I could take that deer. I don't know which barrel I would chose to use. At first I thought the .223 barrel with a round in the heart/lung area, but OO buck at that range also might work, although it's a bit on the outside end of the good effective range I suppose. Oh, it would be quite possible to use one of those .223 barrel inserts that take a .22 LR cartridge for smaller game with that gun, too.

A somewhat dice-ier shot would be with my scoped Marlin bolt action .22 WMR carbine. At 65 yards, a neck shot would be easy, a brain shot possible. That's one very accurate rifle, and I would seriously consider taking that if I were wandering off into the deep dark woods. It doesn't weigh much, and a person could take a lot of ammo.

I re-read through all the posts here. There is some good info, however one aspect struck me and that is who here on this forum could actually see themselves in a desperate situation where it depended on you having to shoot animals to survive?

I carry a PLB and now also a SPOT device in the unlikely event I or someone in our group would require immediate rescue where a serious injury occurred and or a life was at stake. That said, I just cannot picture carrying a bb, pellet, .22 gun et al just in case I may find myself without food and have to hunt to eat. To me, being equipped to survive means having the PLB and or SPOT, adequate and extra food, other survival kit and also leaving a detailed itinerary with family /friends so that a rescue is initiated if we do not return at the scheduled time.

On the other hand, I can see where people who do not carry a PLB, or Spot and do not carry adquate food, kit nor leave an itinerary, may very well find themselves in a desperate situation and would be forced to scavenge and hunt for food until help and rescue arrives..or if it ever arrives at all. If it came down to this, I would rather be finding my way out of that situation. I don't think that aside from perhaps some remote areas of the Rockies and a few other small areas in the USA lower 48 where with the compass that you at least hopefully packed, you would not be all that long in finding some semblance of civilization before you were too weak from hunger to walk. I guess though if you did not have a compass and have a tendency to walk in circles, you will never find civilization and eventual help.

Just food for thought...no pun intended.

Byrd..there are three old books,written in 1905?-06?,about this.Wallace wrote the "lure of the labrador wild" to recount his version of what went on.Hubbard's wife,Mina, wrote "a womens way through unknown labrador" to prove that the trip could have been done and Wallace wrote his account of the bigger expedition he put together to explore the area "the long labrador trail"..the best thing to do is read the modern account in the form of a novel by Davidson and Rugge,"great heart".both those guys did a lot of canoeing and wrote "how to" books on the subject.the older books have some of that old style writing that is harder to read and Mina and Wallace had "issues" about the first trip and much is not said by either of them on touchy subjects.George Ellson the guide is Great Heart,read and find out why.and it's just not the adventures on the trail but the change that comes over people having survived something like what they went through.

Teslin..not me.unless we were to pull up stakes and drive up to Alaska and live off the land and grid.for survival in the places i canoe around in,zero..a lot of what we do here is called thought experiments.what if's and what could happen if, sort of things.while i'll never have to kill game to survive if i had some sort of canoeing mishap just thinking about the "what if's"sort of keeps your mind sharp on the subject and some of the little things like the right kind of knife or knot work comes in handy...now the guys like Blast who live with a killing storm out the front door are in another world when it comes to all this.thinking about how much food and water you might need is more that just a handy subject...

I found the book that you suggested last night on Half.com for $3.15 for a used copy in great shape. I ordered it and am looking forward to reading it. Thanks for the suggestions.

I'd be confident in my ability to take that deer with a well sighted-in .223 or .30-06 (those being the two rifle calibers that I've shot the most), with iron sights. I'd be aiming for the heart and lungs, not a CNS shot.

I agree with Canoedogs. Most of the scenarios presented in this forum will never happen to any of us, and we propose them for mental exercise and for our mutual amusement.

That said, I will add that some of us are trying to keep the old ways alive. I can imagine situations like war, widespread natural disaster, regional power outtages, terrorist acts, civil unrest etc, not to mention dead batteries where no one would respond to an electronic beacon.

I have nothing against anyone who prefers to clank off down well worn trails layered in their underarmor and north face pullovers, laden with titanium gadgets, collapsible shock-absorbing carbide tipped poles, gas stoves, freeze dried tetrazinni, beacons, gore-tex bivvy, micro tarps and hi-tech computer controlled digital headlights, all packed into an ultralight computer designed carry system. That's just not me.

I also do not struggle with the concept of harvesting a wild animal for food. Deer are as numerous as cattle here, and I do not see any philosphical difference in harvesting meat myself, or buying meat at a grocery store that someone else harvested for me. I'm no Nessmuk, but I go into the woods for solitude, to hone my primitive skills, and to escape modern electronic technology.

I believe that there is a place for beacons and similar devices...pilots, mariners, long distance overlanders, group guides to name a few. However, if a person is a day hiker, a hunter, a backwoods fisherman, a bird watcher etc, and they do not possess the very basic traditional equipment and skills to to keep out of trouble or to spend an unexpected night in the woods and extract themselves without relying on others to rescue them in lieu of those skills, they should really stay on the pavement or hire an experienced guide.

[/quote]
I believe that there is a place for beacons and similar devices...pilots, mariners, long distance overlanders, group guides to name a few. However, if a person is a day hiker, a hunter, a backwoods fisherman, a bird watcher etc, and they do not possess the very basic traditional equipment and skills to to keep out of trouble or to spend an unexpected night in the woods and extract themselves without relying on others to rescue them in lieu of those skills, they should really stay on the pavement or hire an experienced guide. [/quote]

I like to hike the boulder-strewn canyons in SoCal where there is often no cell service. No, I don't just like it, I REALLY like it. I have found and seen stuff (including ancient petroglyphs) that few other people have seen, perhaps no one in recent history. I could fall off a boulder and break a leg. I could get bitten by a poisonous snake. I could get attacked by a mountain lion or a bear. I could have a heart attack. This isn't just armchair fantasy, it happens. It happens within 10-15 walking/climbing minutes of houses here. Am I gonna stop doing this? Nope. Am I gonna carry a PLB in case I get disabled? You bet. ;-)

I have never hunted, but I do lots and lots of target shooting. If that deer was just standing there at 65 yards, presenting that big old broadside target like it is, any practiced shooter should be able to take it down using iron sights. A hunter would know WHERE to shoot the deer for best results, but a target shooter could easily hit the mark if told where that mark is. Personally, I don't know where you should aim on a deer to kill it quickly - so I'd be handicapped from the get-go. I suppose you could just shrug and say "Whatever, I'll shoot it in the head". That would probably work.

However, I wouldn't do it with a .22lr or .22wrm or even .223. Those are a bit underpowered (varmit calibers). I supposed in a true survival situation you'd try with whatever you had, but I wouldn't consider a .223 to be a reasonable caliber for medium sized game, much less a .22. Doesn't mean that you couldn't take a deer with one of these smaller calibers, just that you probably shouldn't IMHO, unless you life depended on it.

But were this me, I'd be going after smaller stuff with my handy slingshot. Squirrels and birds and such are easy to get with a slingshot, and would keep you alive.

The scenario was actually a protracted natural disaster with me bugging out not in, so yes pidgeons doves, robins whatever i could take, but then it became more of a general would it even work question so i wasn't sure what forum to put post it in. Thanks again for all your input and feedback I will be taking the C11 into the field sometime before I have to actually rely on it but not sure when.

I beg to differ. For the last 3 years I have subscribed to Google news alerts that email me on a regular basis, news articles where even the most properly equipped and highly experienced outdoors enthusiasts from all walks of life make mistakes and have to either be rescued or are found dead. Many of these people would still be alive today if they carried a SPOT or PLB.

All the old traditonal skills are not going to help you if you slip and break a leg, fracture your back, etc and you have no way of putting those learned traditional skills to work to save your life, whereas pressing a button or 2 on a PLB or SPOT can make a significant difference in the outcome of your situation.

It is also somewhat ironic that on this forum, hardly a week or month passes where we hear and read of a person(s) who got lost, died etc while out enjoying the outdoors and the most popular and almost immediate lament here is "Why were they not carrying a PLB or SPOT?". DR himself has made many posts on the wisdom of carrying such devices....regardless of any persons skill level.

Yes I am not big on technology and abhore many gadgets, that in my outdoors pursuits I see people carry. However the SPOT and PLB are 2 such devices which can make the right difference. I guess though it is all a matter of perspective. As much as I love the outdoors, I also love coming home to my family and friends after a day(s) out in the trails and mountains. If in the unlikely event I ever find myself in trouble and if it takes having to press the button to summon rescue, at least my odds to live increase and I will get see my family another day...and that is all that really matters.

Even as we post, a search is underway at Glacier National Park for a missing fisherman who was just out for the day. They have found his fishing rod, submerged within a lake, and it doesn't look like a very good outcome is developing.

Length of trip has no relationship whatever to the severity of the potential emergency that might ensue.

On the other had, carrying a neato electronic whizbang PLB or SPOT is no guarantee, either. Slip, take a 100 foot plunge onto rocks, and you probably won't get a chance to trigger anything. In some folks, hopefully not many, possession of a PLB might even encourage risky behavior.

PLBs, et al., definitely are useful, and they probably should be in more general service. But they are truly no substitute for experience and proper decision making.

By the way, i am somewhat leery of "news reports of ...experienced outdoors enthusiasts". Typical news reports are incredibly superficial and rarely give a valid picture of the actual situation. "Experienced" is an often overused, uncritically used adjective which a victim's friends and family will apply to someone who has spent all of one night in a roadside campground. Rarely do you read a well developed analysis of the situation when all the information has been assembled.

PLB's are such a good idea that I'm surprised we're even debating it. Does everyone need one? I doubt it. But most would agree it's better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it. As the prices come down, and for electronics prices usually do, I expect I'll eventually buy one. It certainly won't replace survival skills for several reasons. First, the unit could fail. Or you could be in a remote area where the rescue could take a couple days even if your location is known- this isn't all that uncommon, and I've read that in the bulk of rescues the victims are still carried out on foot. Certainly if you trigger your PLB near sundown a chopper isn't going to rescue you at night. You'd best have some shelter and fire at a minimum to see you thru til morning.

PLBs are good at one thing, letting the authorities know you're in trouble and where you are. If you travel over or through remote areas where you are going to be well away from hell they make a lot of sense.

But they have less utility if the problem is that you are one of many people in trouble and/or if emergency services are unavailable or overwhelmed.

A PLB is of less use in most hurricane, earthquake, riot, flood, or wildfire scenarios. Activating a PLB doesn't move you to the top of the list for rescue.

A PLB also won't keep you fed, watered, sheltered.

True enough, however a PLB sure improves the odds of getting you home to food, water and shelter...

Doing a search on Bows came across this.

Lots of talk on the subject,here's how it would play in my neck of the woods.

We have Mtns,snow,ice and people going off the side all the time. A recent one a lady went thru guardrail. Caltrans saw wrecked rail,looked over side,saw nothing,put up pylons.

A local citizen read of a lady going to a local resort who 'disappeared',went to site and spotted vehicle,a week later.She was deceased.

Multiple stories along those lines here.

We also have poor cell service.

That said,had never even hard of those PLB's until I came here.Its now high on the list of researching and purchase,its one of the biggest threats I face driving here thats life and death,my job doesnt take weather as an excuse not to show up,unless its waist deep snow and I have pictures.....yet I can leave in a starting snow and find myself rapidly in a blizzard condition.

PLB sounds like a no brainer for here.

"Holy Necro-Post, Batman!"

I started looking at this thread after seeing it near the top of the forum today and said, "Hey, I recognise this!" Sure enough, I had a post or two previously.

Has it been two years already on this thread? Boy, it doesn't seem that long. I must be getting old...

how about a take-down 22lr rifle under one pound?

http://www.packrifle.com/

the weight savings in the rifle would allow you to carry extra ammo instead. at least with a 22lr you have more power and range.

and when used with CCI Subsonic HP #0056 it would be damn near silent too. in fact, i find #0056 in a rifle quieter than most pellet guns...

I'd like to see the packrifle in 38 special. Not a huge increase in PSI over a
22. Still pretty compact and inexpensive ammo. Shotshells for 38 are better
than 22.

38 Special is legal for deer in some states and
better and more humane for jackrabbits and other tough small game. In a longer
barrel they are very quiet too as they travel subsonic. Won't hurt your ears as
much.

My Beeman pellet gun is HEAVY,and noisy.While it could take down a rabbit all in all I'd rather have the 10/22 any day.




And geeze does ammo get heavy fast! 2 boxes 12g,40 rounds 30.30 and a brick of .22 is heavy.Give me half a brick of .22 any day instead.

I think the .22 is the go to survival rifle for me.Like the breakdown 10/22 but I have to call it stops somewhere otherwise I would do nothing but buy more and more.




Ruger Mk III? Man what a nice little gun.A range member sets up clay pigeons at around 25 yards and is darn good at hitting em,and the misses still close.Takes a lot of good natured ribbing with the little gun but in reality its pretty impressive what he hits with lots of practice.




Think Ive got all the goodies for the Excaliber Vixen II Crossbow (And a scope,woohoo!),shouldnt be long before we have that at the range,cant wait!

Specifications
Velocity: 285 FPS
Draw Weight: 150 lbs.
Power Stroke: 13.5"
Mass Weight: 5.9 lbs.
Overall Length: 35.5"
Arrow Length: 20"
Arrow Weight: 325 Grains
Stock Type: Traditional
Finish: Realtree Hardwoods HD
Arrow speeds obtained using 350 grain arrow and optional 1989 Flemish Dyna Flight String




Finally,open sights,whats that??? All but the shottie has glasses here,my eyes arent 18 years old by a long shot.

if you choose to forage with style...Belgian Browning take down, S&W M41

Always knew you had good taste, Les. Much prettier than the plumber's nightmare .22 takedown.

Mike... I'd probably take the 10/22.. should have kept the Savage M24C... .22lr, 20ga

I've got a similar one from Benjamin in .177 that cracks like a .22. I tried a heavier pellet & it makes a lot more noise from the gun but the pellet is sub-sonic & it doesn't sound like a gun going off. I wouldn't use them regularly but when stealth counts it is an option.

I have this one

How about the De Lisle Carbine. An Enfield chambered in .45 ACP which can take M1911 pistol mags with a suppressed barrel shroud. Subsonic with a powerful cartridge for larger Survival game hunting and very quiet. Should complement M1911 pistol fans quiet nicely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=dow7W-P9vRk

Especially now that they offer the 10/22 in a takedown version. A bit spendy at around $300 vs. the $200-ish price of the standard version but if you need something packable it would be tough to beat.

Phaedrus... I found the Browning this summer for $300... have wanted one since I was a kid and couldn't afford it

AFLM... the paperwork for a supressor in the US takes about a year after you do the revocable living trust or get an approved signature, and most county Sheriffs or State Attorneys don't sign them routinely...... the tax stamp is $200

When my kids became teenagers, I sold off the gun collection cuz they were better at finding things than I was at hiding things, and I could not chance the consequences: 24c, colt woodsman, walther pp .22, 97 winchester,...*sigh*...good kids, and worth it, but still...

You should have read the book by Mas Ayoob, "Gunproof your Children" (as opposed to "Childproof your Guns") before getting rid of your firearms. Sounds like you had some nice guns that you'll never see again for no good reason. Bummer.

If I made a mistake about selling a gun, I can buy a new gun. If I make a mistake about a kid accessing a gun, that kid is gone forever. I am not unhappy with my decision in any existential sense, tho I do have a bit of nostalgia.


Sometimes kids are more complicated than even experts in child psychology like Ayoob can comprehend. Sometimes children are even more important than guns.

I've taken the opposite approach: My three girls are all trained shooters and know where the guns are kept. They're kept locked in a safe at all times when not with me (the guns, that is, not the girls).

I would say that if you cannot, for whatever reason, commit to safe storage when kids are around, selling your guns is exactly the right thing to do.

I have a couple .22LR rifles which would be good for this. Without a doubt, my fav .22LR rifle is a CZ-452 bolt action with great iron sights. It will shoot anything from 40 gr Velocitors to the much more quiet subsonic ammo and CB's. The shooter just needs to know the different trajectories. For .22LR ammo, Velocitors are fairly flat shooting and the Gold Dot bullet will do its job. Terminal velocity is key though, .22LR ammo slow down and goes transonic much quicker than most peeps realize.

Doesn't have anything to do with psychology, nor did I say guns were more important than kids. How many OTHER homes do you think you teenagers might have visited where guns were present? Unless you plan to lock your kids inside your home only, never letting them go anywhere else, ridding your home of firearms is not a 100% solution. It might make you feel better, but it doesn't accomplish much if your true goal is to keep your children safe from firearms accidents. Teaching them about guns is much better, as they are then equipped to handle any situation they might encounter, whether inside your home or inside the home of another.

However, it made you feel better to get rid of the guns, so that is worth something to you. I am not knocking that. When my kids were younger, all firearms were religiously locked up. But the kids were educated in firearms alongside that, and taught to shoot safely and responsibly. So I didn't have to worry if they were at a friends house where the parents weren't so diligent about keeping access away from kids. Now that they've grown, 100% lock up of every firearm is no longer a firm requirement. If I need to remove my carry gun and place it on the kitchen table temporarily, including fully loaded, I have no qualms about doing that now. However, I would never do that with young kids or visitors, even if they had training. If you felt the need to get rid of all your guns, I wouldn't argue with you about that. But I share in your remorse about losing some fine firearms...

Mike is making the point that guns arent for everyone.He is absolutely right on that.

Lets respect that choice and all the members who feel that way.

Mike is 100% right doing what HE feels is safest for his family,and it worked too,well done Mike!

As for Ayoob,I USED to think guy was right on. Now after having looked into the guy I dont.

Do your own homework on that subject.

Ah the stuff we see on the internet,eh?
=======================
Love this line....

Abraham Lincoln said...."Dont believe everything you read on the internet"

Nice guns, Les. I especially like the S&W. Wish I had a fine piece like that!

I think we should assume that Mike knows his kids, that he probably made the best decision for their situation. We shouldn't assume that he didn't teach his kids about safety. We can argue until the Mayan apocalypse and beyond about guns and kids, but this sort of decision is so situation-specific, and that includes the feelings of the people involved. I just hope that Mike will get to pick up his old habit one day.

Bug in/out, I would perfer silence, bow, cross bow, leg hold connabear, or air rifle/pistol. I like big guns and BIG noises, just not unless I am trying to intimidate someone,...I do that before the "event" or nieghbor kids validize anything here, or worse.

Ironwood

One thing to bear in mind about survival hunting is that if your survival situation resembles the vast majority of hunting/gathering cultures, most subsistence will come from vegetal sources, especially in any long term situation. Arctic conditions would be the exception. So pay attention to Blast and his edible weeds....

50 year old lesson learned... if you try to live off the land for a weekend... and your survival fishing is with a couple of M80s tied to a rock.... don't drop it directly under the canoe

another tip..if you want to try out some survival hunting don't do it in a park in Canada and then post the photos of you cooking out of season Spruce Grouse.i wonder why those guys have not posted anymore trip reports?

First off, excellent choice Mike. I have to disagree with the "no good reason" comment. You weren't comfortable with your situation and you fixed it. Better safe than sorry, especially when it comes to kids and weapons. If you had an inkling of doubt, I say you made the right choice.

Second, re the Ayoob quote, why wouldn't you do both? I don't own a gun but I am not anti-gun either. Whether it's your kids in someone else's house, someone else's kids in your house, or a stranger somewhere in between, it makes as much sense to me to idiot/crazy-proof your guns, as it does to gun-proof your kids if there's a chance they'll cross paths.

That's exactly what I said. You probably didn't notice that part:


My point was, simply getting rid of guns in your house IS NOT ENOUGH. You must educate and train your children as well. Because you do not control all the situations they will find themselves in.

My personal choice was to lock up my guns (in addition to training my children). I did not feel the need to get rid of them. But I was not chastising Mike for making his choice that was different than mine. As a matter of fact, I specifically said:


My point was, and still is, getting rid of guns from your house, or locking them up, IS INSUFFICIENT. Lockup or banishment is one thing that you should do ("hiding" does not qualify - every parent knows you can't hide something from your kids). But the other thing that is required is to educate your kids. So that they can keep themselves safe if they wander into a friends house and find a gun sitting out unsecured. Even though your house may not contain any firearms, your neighbors house might, and your kids should be able to deal with that possibility safely.

The only reason I responded to Mike's original post on the kids/guns/rid_the_house concept was because he was maybe a bit remoreseful that he got rid of his firearms, evidenced by his use of *sigh* in his post. And I was just co-miserating with him about that. But after that, I tried to point out to others that simply getting rid of your guns, as Mike did, is not enough to protect your children IMHO. It is only ONE step that you can take. You should add other steps too. Whether Mike additionally trained his kids about firearms or not is unknown to me, and irrelevent to my point (because his kids grew up safe and sound by whatever he did). I was targeting my statement at OTHER PEOPLE who might currently be in the "young kids at home" stage of their lives.

Perhaps it would e useful to discuss the elements of a minimal course for the "armament challenged" - how to make safe a revolver, semi-automatic, pump action; the four rules, etc.

As usual, Geezer in Chief makes some valuable contributions. If "survival hunting" is going to mean mostly gathering edible wild plants, supplemented with occasional meat, then some preppers will have a big surprise coming to them. Quite a few of us internet posters (elsewhere and possibly even here) are under the impression that if SHTF, they can just pick up their .22 rifle and go hunt squirrels, or a larger caliber and hunt deer. Most of them don't seem to be regular hunters, and not that many thought about how long the land can sustain thousands of people with the same plan. I did hunter's ed, and at some point I realized I might not be so keen on field dressing an animal in my valuable time away from work...

Well, time for me to learn to identify edible plants, I suppose!

We've got a lot of squirrels around here, but not enough to sustain us for long. About the only huntable "wild game" we see around here routinely are coyotes. We used to have racoons, but then the foxes came and ate them. Then the coyotes came and ate the foxes. Occassionally a couger comes in to snatch a coyote, but you rarely (if ever) see them. Sometimes bears, but I don't think they come for anything other than garbage cans. I guess you could hunt and eat a coyote if you were hungry enough. But still, there aren't enough to go around for the whole city. We have tons of geese now. They show up twice a year. Quite a nuisense, but for the few weeks they are here each migration, they would be very easy pickin's for a meal. You could get them easily with any weapon, including a broom. They're just wandering around all the open spaces, especially near water.

I saw posted somewhere, maybe even here on ETS, that instead of "hunting" squirrels with firearms, pellet guns, slingshots or what have you, it would be easier to just use use large mouse traps (the one's sized for rats) loaded with peanut butter as bait. That makes a lot of sense. I don't think I'd even have to bait mine. I could just set the spring, and then lay them down in our compost bin - which attracts squirrels like it was a gourmet restaurant.

I know what you mean about ecological changes. I used to see a lot more cougars when I was young, but no longer. They were beautiful and energetic. Around here we have an overpopulation of deer, but probably not enough to sustain the town's population. I'd also be worried about hunting accidents if everyone fans out into the limited amount of forrest lands here.

Time to stock on mouse traps (extra large).

It's a ten to twelve hour class .

In short:

• Always treat every gun as though it is loaded
• Always keep every gun pointed in a safe direction
• Always keep your finger outside (and not covering) the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot
• Always know your target and what is beyond
• Never handle firearms under the influence of drugs or alcohol
• Always store firearms securely to prevent unauthorized access
• Keep your firearms properly maintained so that they function as designed

The old rule was to keep your finger "off of the trigger" until ready to shoot, but we've learned quite a bit about biomechanics and reflexive actions since then. If you keep your finger up high on the slide or frame of the gun, you're much less likely to have a negligent discharge. Basically, if you should trip or start to fall, the sympathetic grasp reflex could cause you to pull the trigger inadvertently, even if your finger is outside the trigger guard but still covering it.

It's hard to find a perfectly safe direction outside of a range, so find the direction that will minimize the chance of damage to property or injury to persons.

The NRA offers firearms safety classes for adults and children. Might be worth a phone call.

Perhaps an important part of the course is: have the courage to get out of there fast when your buddies start handling firearms in an unsafe manner. I'm not sure it takes 10-12 hours for someone who has no interest in the shooting sports to be able to be safe around firearms on the rare occasions he/she is around them, but it may take some familiarity with firearms for someone to gain enough confidence to say to "that guy" "you're endangering us all, so please stop, or I will leave."

Please do not construe what I'm about to say below as a political statement; it is a pragmatic statement. Some people are put off by the NRA for whatever reason, and to reach a wider population, it would be useful for the basic safety classes to be offered by an organization that is perceived as politically neutral.

Even better, make it a required part of the school curriculum just like the half a year each of wood shop, home-ec, government, and economics. That way most people would both get exposed to them and know how to handle one safely.

Edit
Forgot the half year of health class. I don't remember what they paired it with to make a full year.

I wonder if the topic survival hunting means short term vrs TEOTWAWKI,in the latter I think hunting game would be pretty useless,it would be gone so fast as to be moot IMO.

Like said,eating weeds,AKA Euell Gibbons,and bugs is a more realistic survival tool.

Of all the training I would like,recognizing wild vegetable food sources is the course I want.

Im also thinking,that could be a fine source of income teaching such a class,now where do I get the training,anyone have a source?

The smart "survival hunter" always hunts at the stockyards.

be sure to include some form of fish gathering equipment...if you live near any river or estuary... a good cast net for schooling fish, or a large treble hook for snatching those out of reach... trot line...wire traps for blue crab, crawfish...small mesh dip net for gathering bait.... a 100 pack of suitible sized hooks can produce more protein than a 100 pack of .22lr..

I consider hunting/snaring to be a tactic for SHTF for an extended period. Many folks have little experience & skill and this would be a negative calorie activity. I occasionally try snaring.

That said, a .177 air rifle or .22LR are my preferences for small game. I am setting aside change for an AR-7 and will afford one eventually.