Intentionally dancing around to solicit been there, done that quality advice on the best way to go. My wants and preferences are more than adequately set forth, the question is the best way to get there, which are unreachable or a bad idea.

FYI: Local outlet has new Remingotn .410, 22 for about $350; can order new Remington .223/12 guage for about $550. Not sure how/if to scope such beasts for distance shooting.

That's fair enough, but note that I don't think the requirements are clearly set forth. At least one other person agrees with me.

In the interests of advancing the discussion, there follows a classic analysis of firearm capabilities:
After some years now of reading Internet bulletin boards, I think I've got
the pros and cons of possible "**** Hits The Fan" (SHTF) rifle choices
figured out. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the following is my analysis based upon the wisdom of numerous gun board gurus (you know them; they're always the first ones to tell you a particular model gun is "junk" and enlighten you as to why they have made the only logical purchases)...

The AR 15:
Great, awesome, unbelievable rifle (when it works). Can hit a fly in the
butt at 300 yards (when it works). If one is ever attacked by a pack of
feral poodles post-SHTF, this is the perfect defensive rifle (unless it
jams, in which case you're poodle food). The upside is that one can hang
more plastic aftermarket doo-dads on it than a Christmas tree, which may
effectively frighten away bad guys when the gun jams. Also, by simply
changing the upper, one can convert it into a Ruger 10/22.

The MINI-14:
Could be a good rifle, but it's not black.

The SKS:
Best obsolete rifle ever made (even if it isn't black, but you can buy a
black aftermarket stock that looks kinda like an AR). If you need to lay in
a big mud puddle and shoot at bad guys, this is the rifle to have. It will
shoot as well as ever (maybe even better) when full of mud and the ten
round mag makes puddle shooting a breeze since unlike hi-cap mags, you can
hold the rifle upright in prone (mud puddle) position. Major drawback is
that everyone knows that in a post-SHTF situation one must immediately fire
thousands of rounds, a task for which a fixed ten round magazine is ill
equipped, which is why they invented the AK. You can buy aftermarket hi-cap
mags, but they often jam, creating the illusion that one is shooting an AR
when combined with a nifty aftermarket stock. Other major drawback is that
the 7.62 x 39 round is not .223 or .308.

The AK-47:
The AK-47 solved the difficult problem of firing thousands of rounds at
approaching bad guys by allowing you to deftly change 30 round mags taped
back to back, or for the truly ambitious, drum type magazines may be found.
Unfortunately, buying an AK-47 is difficult, as they only come in full auto
configurations. The good news is that a number of semi-automatic variants
are available, allowing you to simulate an actual AK-47 by pulling the
trigger really, really fast. Like the SKS, AK variants function best when
filled with mud, but actually filling them is difficult as the hi-cap
magazine makes lying in a mud puddle while shooting much more difficult.
Fortunately, tactical experts from a mysterious facility known only to us
as "the hood" have developed the "homeboy" method of handling an AK variant
which promises to alleviate the hi-cap magazine vs mud puddle problem. One
drawback of the AK variant is that (like the SKS) it's not black, however,
aftermarket vendors have corrected this tactical faux pas on the part of
Soviet designers by offering black furniture for those "in the know". Like
the SKS, the AK variant also suffers from the troubling problem that the
7.62 x 39 round is not .223 or .308. However, recognizing this problem,
Russian designers have created a similar cartridge to the .223 known as the
5.45 x 39.5. The problem of the 7.62 x 39 not being a .308 has not been
addressed, as Russian poodles are apparently no larger than American
poodles. Nevertheless, the quest to make smaller and smaller projectiles
for combat weapons continues and rumors of a newer and better innovation
known as the "pellet gun" have recently surfaced. We await an AR upper to
accommodate this promising new caliber.

The Mosin-Nagant:
This unpronounceable rifle has a long history of military service. Napoleon
reportedly had one. The unusually long 91/30 barrel combined with bayonet
insures that it should be especially useful should a SHTF scenario involve
the "redcoats" coming. The major drawback of this rifle is that it is a
bolt action, which could make firing the prerequisite thousands of rounds
at approaching bad guys difficult. However, if the Mosin owner and the bad
guys are patient, one should be able to sling enough lead downrange by the
time they are older than their rifle currently is. Like other eastern block
rifles, the Mosin also is not black. This may be a possible reason why the
Soviets lost the cold war. However, like the SKS and AK, western vendors
have corrected this problem by offering an aftermarket stock in black.
Unfortunately, none are available with a pistol grip. If Napoleon's Mosin
had a pistol grip, he may have very well conquered the world, but that's
another discussion. Other "carbine" type Mosins are also available, which
would be the perfect compliment if one's SHTF plan includes charging at bad
guys on horseback while wearing a fur hat, swinging a curved saber and
swilling a bottle of vodka.

The CETME:
While the Mosin-Nagant takes a step in the right direction by chambering a
larger caliber, the CETME promises to actually be able to send the desired
thousands of rounds downrange much like the AK, only with the "bang" being
in Spanish rather than Russian. While promising, the CETME is said to fall
short since it's commonly known that the Century built models can only be
fired once before exploding. The best-known solution is to use the CETME
like a hand grenade, throwing it at the bad guys and hoping they try to
fire it so it explodes on them rather than you.

The G3:
The G3 would probably make a good post-SHTF weapon, but they're full auto
and Uncle Sam says you can't have one. Because he said so and because "he's
the uncle". Well, you could get one if you sold your house and lived in
your car to pay for it, but that's pretty much the same thing. The good
news is that you could get a semi-automatic version like the HK91 or PTR-91
(and they're black, a major improvement on the original CETME design). The
major complaint about this design is that it has stuff like a fluted
chamber and a roller-delayed blowback action, making it too exotic for a
viable SHTF weapon. The other major drawback reported about this German
improvement on the CETME design is that it's not an M1A or a FAL.

The FAL:
The FAL is the freemason of rifles. Though you don't run into them often,
they're reported to be everywhere and secretly control the world of guns.
This explains why FAL owners tend to worship their rifles, often converting
their gun cabinets into FAL shrines and performing bizarre candlelit
rituals before their rifle, which only the initiated understand. For the
uninitiated, the upside is that the FAL can be found in black furniture and
has hi-cap magazines. FAL owners tend to taunt AR owners about their
"poodle shooter" calibers, touting the ability of the .308 to penetrate
such obstacles as trees. While this puzzles some, I suspect that the
members of the FAL cult may have some mysterious knowledge that common gun
owners do not. Perhaps when the SHTF and hordes of trees rise up to destroy
the human race we will all wish we had a FAL.

The M1A:
The M1A is the ultimate SHTF rifle. We know this because M1A owners remind
us of this constantly. Like the FAL, the M1A is capable of stopping a tree
in its tracks. When the hordes of killer trees take the rest of us, FAL and
M1A owners will likely be the only ones left to hash out who has the better
rifle. Of course, we know the answer (because M1A owners remind us of it
constantly). The M1A not only has superior penetration, it is extremely
accurate at distance. Therefore, when the hordes of killer trees have all
been mowed down, FAL owners will fall quickly to the hordes of paper
silhouette targets come to avenge their woodland brethren. The M1A owners
will stop the avenging targets with neat, 1 MOA groups center mass at 600
yards. At that point, the standard M1A owners will have to hash out which
is the better gun with the SOCOM 16 owners to determine who will inherit
the earth. A glaring design error in the M1A is that it's not black, which
is why they invented the SOCOM.

Other military style rifles:
There are, in fact, other military style rifles, which I have not
mentioned. It is, however, widely understood that all of these other rifles
will fail as soon as the stuff hits the fan and being less common than the
others, parts will not be available, rendering them all useless.

Pistol caliber carbines and sporting rifles:
Aside from the biggies, there are carbines in pistol calibers, but as Jeff
Cooper says about the .32, if your shoot someone with one, and they notice,
they'll probably get mad. Therefore, pistol caliber carbines are fun toys,
but not a serious SHTF choice.

Sporting rifles are right out.. They are not designed to fire the required
volume of ammunition in a short period. Under such stress, their barrels
will melt and droop like wet noodles, leaving the user defenseless.

Well, that's about it. Thanks to the Internet and the plethora of gurus on
it, I now have a comprehensive understanding of every possible SHTF rifle,
even one's I've never owned or even shot. Naturally, I had to pass this
know-how on.

But Wait..

You bought the wrong gun!!!

M14/M1A: Clunky, heavy, and overpowered. Essentially a Garand tarted up
with a removable magazine, in a half-baked attempt to adapt a 19th century
rifle design philosophy to the mid-20th century. Most often named as
favorite infantry rifle by people who never had to hump a 10-pound
wood-stocked rifle with lots of sharp protrusions and no collapsible
anything on a three day exercise, or try to make it through a firefight
with the standard battle load of five 20-round magazines.

AK-47: Crude and inaccurate bullet thrower designed by and for illiterate
peasants. Chambered in a caliber that manages to cut the ballistics of a
proper .30-caliber battle rifle in half without passing on any weight
savings to the grunt. Ergonomics only suitable for Russian midgets. Archaic
cable trigger spring, crummy sights, no sight radius to speak of, no bolt
hold-open device, and a clumsy safety. Favorite infantry rifle of Middle
Eastern goat herders, guys named Abdullah, and backwoods militia types who
like the fact that it shoots cheap ammo and has ballistics like their
familiar .30-30.

H&K G-3/HK-91: Ergonomics of a railroad tie. No bolt release, and a locking
system that requires three men and a mule to work the cocking handle.
Fluted chamber that mauls brass, and violent bolt motion that dings the
brass that didn't get mauled too badly by the chamber. Stamped sheet metal
construction, yet just as heavy as a milled steel M14. Safety lever that
requires unnaturally long thumbs, and a trigger pull that feels like
dragging a piano across a gravel road with your index finger. Favorite
infantry rifle of Cold War nostalgics and third world commandos.

M-16/AR-15: Underpowered varmint rifle burdened by a crummy magazine
design. Nasty direct-impingement gas system that poops where it eats. High
sight line, flimsy alloy-and-plastic construction. Generally favored by
range commandos, tactical disciples, military vets who have never fired
anything else for comparison, and Brownells addicts who a.) enjoy spending
three times the cost on the rifle on bolt-on accoutrements, and b.) never
have to use their rifle away from a dry, sunny range.

G-36: Flimsy plastic rifle with non-user adjustable fair-weather optics
that fog up when a gnat breaks wind in front of them. Magazines that take
up twice as much pouch space than others in the same caliber because of the
"clever" coupling nubs on the magazine housing. Skeleton folding stock that
is about as suitable for butt-stroking as a plastic mess spork. Twice as
expensive as other rifles in its class because of the "HK" logo on the
receiver. Preferred infantry rifle of SWAT cops, and soldiers whose
militaries haven't been in shooting conflicts since the 1940s.

Glock: Butt-ugly plastic shooting appliance with the ergonomics of a
caulking gun. Five-pound trigger with no external safety makes it ill
suited for its target market (cops who shoot a hundred rounds a year for
qualification). Favored by gangbangers because the product name is short
and rhymes with other short, rap-friendly words.

Beretta 92F/M9: Clunky and overweight rip-off of a clunky and overweight
German design from the 1930s. Shear-happy locking block, ergonomics that
are only suited for linebackers, barely adequate sights that are partially
non-replaceable, and low capacity for its size. Favored by Eighties action
movie fanatics and John Woo freaks.

1911: Overweight and overly complex piece of late 19th century technology.
Low capacity, useless sights in stock form, and a field-stripping procedure
that requires three hands. Favored by people who are at the cutting edge of
handgun technology and combat shooting.of the 1960s.

H&K P7: Wildly overpriced, heavy for its size, low capacity in most
iterations, and blessed with a finish that rusts if you give the gun a
moist glance. Gas tube has a tendency to roast the trigger finger after a
box or two of ammo at the range. Favored by gun snobs who think that paying
twice as much for half the rounds means four times the fighting skill.

SIG Sauer: Top-heavy bricks with the rust resistance of an untreated iron
nail at the bottom of a bucket of saltwater. Ergonomically sound, if you
have size XXL mitts. Some minor parts made in Germany, so the manufacturer
can charge 75% Teutonic Gnome Magic premium. Favored by Jack Bauer fans and
wannabe Sky Marshals/Secret Service agents.

S&W Revolvers: Archaic hand weapons from a bygone era, the missing link
between flintlocks and autoloaders. Low capacity, and reloading requires a
lunch break. Heavy for their capacity, unless you're talking about
airweight snubbies, which hurt as much on the giving end as they do on the
receiving end. Rare stoppages, but few malfunctions that don't require
gunsmith services, which are hard to come by in a gunfight. Favored by
crusty old farts who just now got around to trusting newfangled smokeless
powder, and Dirty Harry fans with unrealistic ideas about the power of
Magnum rounds vs. engine blocks.

SMLE/Enfield: Refinement of a 19th century blackpowder design. Weapon of
choice for militaries who either couldn't afford Mausers, or had
ideological hang-ups about Kraut rifles. Rimlock-prone cartridge that only
barely classifies as a battle rifle round because of blackpowder derivation
and insufficient lock strength of the platform. Favored by Canadians with
WWII nostalgia, and people who think that semi-auto rifles are a passing
fad.

Browning HP: Fragile frame designed around a popgun round. Near-useless
safety in stock form that's only suitable for the thumbs of elementary
schoolers. Strangest and most circuitous way to trip a sear ever put into a
handgun. Favored by wannabe SAS commandos, wannabe mercenaries, and
Anglophiles who think that hammer-down, chamber-empty carry is the most
appropriate way to carry a defensive sidearm.

Benelli shotguns: Plastic boutique scatterguns made by people with the
martial acumen of dairy cows. Hideously expensive, and therefore popular
with police agencies that get their equipment financed by tax dollars.

FN FAL: Long and lightweight receiver that's impossible to scope properly.
Overpowered round, twenty-round magazines that run dry in a blink, and an
overall weapon length that's only suitable for Napoleonic line infantry,
but utterly useless for airborne and armored infantry. Made by Belgians, a
nation with a military history that is limited to waving German divisions
through at the border. Favored by Falklands veterans, Commonwealth fanboys,
and people who think that dial-a-recoil gas systems are the epitome of
infantry technology.

And now, YOUR CALIBER SUCKS TOO!!!

9mm Luger: European popgun round that's only popular because the ammo is
cheap for a centerfire cartridge. Cheap ammo is a good thing for 9mm
aficionados, because anything bigger and more dangerous than a cranky
raccoon will likely require multiple well-placed hits. Wildly popular all
over the world, mostly in countries where people don't carry guns, and cops
don't have to actually shoot people with theirs.

.45ACP: Chunky low-pressure cartridge that hogs magazine space and requires
a low-capacity design (if the gun needs to fit human hands) or a grip with
the circumference of a two-liter soda bottle (if the gun needs to hold more
than seven rounds). Disturbingly prone to bullet setback, expensive to
reload, fits only into big and clunky guns, and a recoil that has an
inversely proportionate relationship with muzzle energy.

.40S&W: Neutered compromise version of a compromise cartridge. Even more
setback-happy than the .45ACP, and setbacks are much more dangerous because
of higher pressure and smaller case volume. Manages to sacrifice both the
capacity of the 9mm and the bullet diameter of the .45. Twice the recoil of
the 9mm for 10% more muzzle energy.

.357SIG: Highly overpriced boutique round that does the .40S&W one worse:
it manages to share the capacity penalty of the .40 while retaining the
small bullet diameter of the 9mm. Noisy, sharp recoil, and 100% cost
penalty for ballistics that can be matched by a good 9mm +P+ load.
Penetrates like the dickens, which means that the Air Marshals just had to
adopt it, only to load their guns with frangible bullets to make sure they
don't penetrate like the dickens.

.38 Special: Legacy design with a case length that's 75% longer than
necessary for the mediocre ballistics of the round due to its blackpowder
heritage. On the plus side, the case length makes it easy to handle when
reloading the gun. This is a good thing because anyone using their .38 in
self-defense against a 250-pound attacker hopped up on crack will need to
empty the gun multiple times.

.32ACP: Inadequate for anything more thick-skinned than Northeastern
squirrels or inbred Austrian archdukes. Semi-rimmed cartridge that is
rimlock-happy in modern lightweight autoloaders. Doesn't go fast enough to
expand a hollowpoint bullet, and it wouldn't matter even if it did, because
the bullet would only expand from tiny to small-ish.

.44 Magnum: Overpowered round that generates manageable recoil and muzzle
blast.if you're a 300-pound linebacker with wrists like steel girders.
Often loaded to "Lite" levels that turn it into a noisy .44 Special while
retaining the ego-preserving Magnum headstamp. Considered the "most
powerful handgun cartridge in the world" by people whose gun knowledge is
either stuck in 1960, or who get their expertise in ballistics from Dirty
Harry movies.

.50 Desert Eagle - The Magnum of the new century. Realizing Hollywood
couldn't escape their Magnum fetishes, they had a handgun that fits the
same stopping power quota of .44 Magnum and all of its filthy drawbacks.
Popular amongst steroid filled movie actors who needs big guns to
compensate for the steroid struck testicles. Comes in a baby variant for
junior.

10mm Auto: Super-high pressure cartridge that beats up gun and shooter
alike. Very brisk recoil in anything other than all-steel S&W boat anchors,
with a shot recovery that's measured in geological epochs for most handgun
platforms. Often underloaded to wimpy levels (see ".40 S&W"), which then
gives it 9mm ballistics while requiring .45ACP magazine real estate.

.380ACP/9mm Kurz: Designed by people who thought the 9mm Luger was a bit
too brisk and snappy, which is pretty much all that needs to be said here.
Great round if you expect to only ever be attacked by people less than
seven inches thick from front to back.

.357 Magnum: Lots of recoil, muzzle blast, and noise to drive a 9mm bullet
to reckless speeds in an attempt to make up for its low mass and diameter.
Explosive fragmentation and insufficient penetration with light bullets;
excessive penetration and insufficient expansion with heavy ones. Still
makes only 9mm holes in the target.

5.7×28mm: Ingenious way to make a centerfire .22 Magnum and then charge
quadruple price for the same ballistics. Awesome chambering for a police
weapon, if you're the park ranger in charge of the chipmunk exhibit at the
zoo and you want to make sure you can take one down if it turns rabid on
you.

.25ACP: Direct violation of the maxim "Never do an enemy a minor injury".
Designed by folks who wanted to retain the bullet diameter of the .22
rimfire round, but take a bit of the excessive lethality out of it. Favored
by people who don't feel comfortable carrying anything more dangerous than
the neighbor kid's rusty Red Ryder pellet gun.

(allegedly originally from
LT Bruce Braxton
Master Instructor Trainer
College Park (GA) Police Dept.
__________________

1 to 4 power scope or a peep. I would prefer a 30-30/ 12 gauge
if you are looking for pigs or deer. Advantage is energy,
rimmed for single shot, legal in more places for big game.

Lewis and Clark took air rifles on there expedition.
Don't over look the U.S. Survival .22. It stores in the stock and floats.

Get thee to a Wal-Mart and buy a Remington 870 pump shotgun in 12ga. Pick up a cleaning kit, Rem-oil, Tuf-cloth, and silicone treated storage sleeve. Buy a box of #7 bird shot and a box (5 rnds) of copper sabot slugs while you're there.

Head down to the gun shop and pick up a box of #2 bird shot, a box of #2 buckshot, rifled and full choke tube to fit and the pouch to carry to carry the chokes and wrench that come with the gun. While you're there get a magazine extension and have them fit swivels and a sling.

With that kit you are ready for anything from crows to bear and ranges from point-blank out to 100 meters with slugs for medium to large game.

At some later day you can get more ammunition and fittings. Later still, fancier iron. But even after you have moved on your simple pump shotgun and a pocket full of shells will likely still be the go-to setup for home security, backup, and investigating what is thrashing around outside your camp site.

That's true, they only weigh about 2.5 lbs. Marlin offers one similiar to it and Cricket makes an adult 22 single shot in the same weight range.

The argument for these is light weight, low cost, quiet, and won't tear up all the meat. The argument against involves the name Chris McCandless, who relied on a .22 auto (Remington 597 I think).

Just for historic reference, these are the guns that L&C carried with them.

Personal firearms
-Lewis: air gun (.46 cal), matched pistols, and a fowler
-Clark: .36 caliber long-rifle, and an "elegant fusil"(light smoothbore)

Group firearms
-(15) flintlocks similiar to pennsylvania rifles (.49 to .54 caliber)
-(?).69 caliber muskets - could fire ball or shot

Heavier guns
-swivel gun (small cannon, typical ~1.5" bore)
-(2) blunderbuss (largebore shotgun)

How? He took a moose with his .22 , and according to game wardens deer poachers prefer .22

The most important consideration is the area you will be in. What game will you be taking on a regular basis for food, and what is the best firearm for that game.

Second consideration is self defense, against man or beast. I'm on the east coast and familiar with the environment here. Biggest thing in the woods to worry about are bears, but our black bears are not as aggressive as brown bears; however, they can get rabies and meeting a rabid bear is not something you want to do. One invaded and attacked a Maryland family a few years ago.

So, I would consider either of these solutions:

If 2 guns:
A .22, lots of ammo. This will provide lots of small game for food.
A substantial handgun, something like a .357 magnum revolver with a 6 inch barrel for self defense and an option for larger game if close enough or good enough shot.
The combo does not weigh too much, and ammo supply can be reasonably large without weighing you down too much.

If only 1 gun:
A minority view:
A 12 gauge, side by side shotgun. Old fashioned yes. Ultra reliable. Relatively light and breaks down into packable size. Put 00 Buck in one chamber, bird shot in the other and you are ready at the pull of a trigger for small or large game. Downside is heavy bulky ammo.

A pump shotgun is a second choice, but IMO suffers due to larger size, does not breakdown easily, and the round in the chamber is what you use (right or wrong) or you have to eject it and load another round of the shot you want. Meantime, you game has heard your fooling around and fled, or worse, attacked you. A second or two in these situations can mean the difference.

I'll be interested to hear what you decide and why. Good luck!

Being one who owns several of the wrong guns in the wrong calibers.... (good writeup)

Seems like a .22 pistol with a long barrel (for better sight radius length) might be the ticket. It'll take all kinds of game, isn't too loud or too heavy and ammo is cheap. Only problem is the "legal game" thing. You wouldn't be legally eating venison, elk or bear or wild boar.