Some time back, one of the regulars on this forum was expressing outrage and indignation about his daughter's Scout Troop instituting a policy that kids were not permitted to carry knives on camping trips. A stupid, knee-jerk reaction, I agree.
But I have in the past two months taken two groups of kids - teenagers, mostly - to a not-so-wild wilderness camp. The first was a Basic Rescuer (Search and Rescue) proficiency (a proficiency is similar to a Boy/Girl Scouts Merit Badge), the second was a Wilderness First Aid Course.

At the first camp, one of the cadets was always playing with his SAK. Eventually, he took it out (at supper), opened up all the blades (including the reamer - the sharp one that opens up at a 90 degree angle) and left it lying on the table with the reamer pointing straight up.
At the second camp, another cadet - whose father had entrusted him with a hatchet - left the hatchet lying on the ground, unsheathed, three times. The third time it happened, I wised up and confiscated it (something that, in hindsight, I should have done with the first cadet, and should have done the first time it happened with the second).

One of the adults who was assisting (he was actually instructing the SAR proficiency) said that in the Junior Forest Wardens, with whom he also volunteered, there was a simple, ironclad policy - if your knife was out of your pocket (or the sheath) and you weren't using it, you lost it - then and there, no ifs, ands or buts. (Whether they got it back eventually he didn't say - I'm sure the parents did.)

For those who have more experience dealing with kids than I do (I don't have any of my own, and I'm fairly new at being responsible for others) how do you handle such situations? Is the "don't take it out unless you are going to use it" a standard policy with youth groups?

What about parents who are absolutely convinced their kids know how to handle knives and other sharp objects responsibly and won't believe, or don't care, that little Johnny/Susie left an unsheathed hatchet lying on the ground in the dark? I'm sure the parents of these two cadets were quite sure their little darlings were responsible mini-adults.
In hindsight, I realise I mishandled both situations, and in future, I plan to lay down the law from the outset at any camp I run - frivolous/irresponsible use of or playing with sharp tools will be met with confiscation, and the tools will be returned to the parents with a written explanation of why it was confiscated. Is this sufficient? I don't think it's over-reacting.

I think that there are many good reasons for keeping sharps under control. Even today I value the lesson I learned at camp about knives. The policy then was if it was unsheathed you were using it and when you were done using it you sheathed it. This was taught to prevent loss, damage to the tool, and of-course as a safety issue. The responsible individual may be able to put down an unsheathed object while attending to some minor thing such as laying down your ax to reposition the wood. But even that individual will be less likely to lose their ax if tthey have the habit of sheathing it on thier belt instead of putting it down. (this is pertinent to camp hatchets, fixed blade knives and folders - lumbering axes and battle axes are somewhat differrent due to size.) I have never lost a knife in the woods because of this learned habit - I did have one confiscated by the counselor before I learned.

There were other rules as well:

Pass folders folded.

Pass sheath knives sheathed.

Pass fixed blades handle first with spine toward your palm.

Do not relinquish hold on blade until reciever has said "Thank You".

Sharpen your sharps at the end of any day they see use.

Clean your stones after every use

Oil your blade after sharpening

Violation of anyone of these rules was grounds for confiscation and if you were involved in an activity requiring the blade you would have to sit out till next day.

If you are going to use a tool you must care for the tool! Remember, these rules are not just to keep others safe. They are to ensure that your tools survive and that you survive. If you don't care for your knife then when you need it you will have a flat peice of steel but not a knife. If you get into the habit of putting your knife down you will one day walk away from it and never see it again. This habit is safer than using a lanyard since the unsheathed blade that follows you because it is attached is likely to jab you in the thigh.

If you present these items as proper knive care rules and preesent the confiscation as a learning / training tool most of the scouts will understand the policy. Violations of the policy need to be enforced evenhandedly and without malice. If a scout puts the blade down, simply pick it up and let them know that in a survival situation they just lost the knife - tell a story about it rolling away off a cliff because it was set down accidently instead of being sheathed / folded and pocketed. So for the rest of the exercise / day / trip they will have to survive without a blade. It is all about playing out the natural consequences.

Ardwolfe,

I have spent many hours teaching and supervising my own children in the proper and safe use of knives, axes, and other sharps. I am now generally comfortable in the way the use their sharps. Unsound or unsafe handling will typically evoke a verbal warning from me which will in turn usually elicit a sheepish apology and a corrected technique by the boy. That is normally all that is necessary. OTOH, if a significant danger or mishandling occurred at the outset, or if the boy does not reform, then confiscation is warranted to the extent of the risk. Note, my children are both boys, and the Scouts with whom I work are also all boys. Possibly some alteration of the approach might be indicated for girls, but I don't have the experience to know.

Scouting requires an earned license to carry and use a knife or ax at scouting activities. Boy Scouts call it the "Totin' Chip." Cub Scouts name it the "Whittling Chip." Both require learning and observing the rules for safely handling knives and/or axes, demonstrating competence and safety in use, and the promise to continue doing so. Unsound or unsafe handling of knives and axes by scout is handled (at least in my area) by any of these means: A verbal warning may suffice in some cases; for other or more serious mishandling, a corner is torn from the Totin Chip or Whittling Chip. When the fourth corner is gone, so is the right to carry a knife or ax. Thereafter the offender must again earn his Totin' Chip or Whittling Chip, and the opportunity may not occur for a long time. A seriously dangerous mishandling of the knife or ax may warrant confiscation with return at a more suitable time (such as to the parent at the end of the activity).

These approaches have worked fairly well for us. Experience teaches. I'm sure your approaches will continue to improve, although I'm not so sure you did not adequately handle the problems you were presented. Obviously you thought you were responding properly at the time. Only in retrospect has your view of the facts become more stringent. Maybe you're being a little too hard on yourself. Anyway you have addressed the problem for the future.

Good luck,

John

My policy is that the knife should only come out when it is needed. A careless action (e. g. leaving it on the table) is met with a warning for the first time. If the action is irresponsible (like in your examples) a warning and an explanation is issued. In addition the kid just "volunteered" for some chore (this one was originally initiated by the group).
The second time a kid violates the rules I would keep the knife for the rest of the day.
If it´s really endangering (e. g. throwing the knife) I don´t cut any slack. The knife would be confiscated and returned at the end of the event.
I usually leave the parents out of this. When they care they did their share and if they don´t care it´s in vain. I think that minor misbehaviour should be met with consequences in a short time frame and if doesn´t happen again it´s history. It´s very humiliating for an adolescent when you give her/his knife and a written note to the parents a couple of days after the incident and it isn´t likely to add to the learning experience. I´d rather have a talk to the kid when returning the knife.
Whatever your policy will be it´s important to make it clear and enforce it for every person. It´s equally important that you and the other instructors lead with good example.

I forgot one of the most important rules of knive handling that has proven extremely difficult to teach -

DON'T LICK THE BLADE!

This seems to be the most frequent violation - especially when we eat PBJ sandwichs with adults violating it as freely as kids!

Thanks all who responded.

You're right, Max - kids will be kids, and the important thing is to teach them how to handle sharp objects correctly, not punish them for not knowing any better.

The important things I've learned here are:

1. Clear and ample warning must be given as part of the orientation phase and/or joining instructions for each camp - what is expected of the youth member and what is not permitted. Parents also need to be informed that knives/hatchets without sheaths will not be permitted in camp (the hatchet that was left lying around did not, as far as I could tell, have a sheath to protect it);

2. There's a difference between an action that is merely careless (like leaving a closed knife lying on the table) and one that is dangerous. The responses to each should be different and should fit the severity/hazard of the offense;

3. Parents should only be involved as a last resort, if the youth member fails to learn his lesson after two or three offenses.

4. Camp Counsellors/Instructors/etc. must be subject to the same rules. (I found that I have a terrible habit of playing with my Leatherman Juice; I may have to seal it in a Ziplock bag to remind myself not to take it out of my pocket. <img src="images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> )

Actually, I think I'll extend some of these principles to other areas. In particular, as part of the WFA course involves rescue carries, proper lifting techniques are very important; perhaps cadets who persist in lifting with their backs and not their legs should be forced to pay a forfeit of some sort.

I love this forum, btw - where else could I get such a quick response from such knowledgeable people? <img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This one cries out for the "natural consequences" approach. Next time you have someone who is not learning proper lifting techniques after repeated instructions then make them a casualty of the scenario. Declare them injured with disabling back pain and make the rest of the team figure out how to handle the extra patient. That should make the point about the potential danger to the one who is not learning and to the team as well as apply a healthy dose of peer pressure on the individual who isn't getting the lesson. Now the team has one less member to help in the extraction and one more patient to be extracted.

I would ad two comments.

One, on a troop campout the scouts set up an axe yard. All chopping and whittling takes place with the yard. Using a knife for incidental tasks such as cooking or perhaps cutting a line as needed are exceptions. This restriction makes it less likely that a scout will be "playing' with his knife in an improper mannor. It doesn't eliminate it but it makes infraction easier to manage as they all know the rules.

Two, a more common infraction is for some reason they tend to be less attentive to the safty issues when they're swingin' away, exactly at a time when they should be the most attentive. Especially the younger scouts who do not have the strength for using the tool over 10-15 minutes. I get more concerned when I see a group of scouts chopping up logs for firewood than I do when I see them whittling down a stick.

Also, they seem more likly to leave axes and saws in the axe yard unsheathed. Our scout quartermaster is supposed to keep track of the tools, but we don't seem to enforce it as much as we should. I think we need to step up our vigilance on this point.