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#205771 - 08/08/10 10:34 PM An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2211
Loc: NE Wisconsin
I almost posted this in the Yellowstone thread but felt it was too much of a hijack, so I'll create a new thread here.

Doing my very best not to get too political ... really thinking more legal here ... the Yellowstone gun posts have me wondering ...

At least in the U.S., with the recent Supreme Court rulings that a person has a natural right to be able to defend themselves (as in bear arms) it makes me wonder if an "organization" prohibits someone from having a gun while on that organization's property means that the organization now has an inherent responsibility to protect you (since you can't protect yourself), and if something happened to you - not having your own protection, that you could sue them for not providing that protection.

So, does a park that forbids firearms have a responsibility to protect me while I'm in that park?

Same for a business or a government building.


Edited by KenK (08/08/10 10:38 PM)
Edit Reason: Mentioning that this is limited to the U.S.

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#205772 - 08/08/10 11:14 PM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: KenK]
ireckon Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 04/01/10
Posts: 1629
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: KenK
So, does a park that forbids firearms have a responsibility to protect me while I'm in that park?


That would be nice, but I highly doubt it.

In 2005, the Supreme Court decided again that police have no legal duty to protect an individual. (See Castle Rock v. Gonzalez.) In practical terms, an individual could not successfully sue the local police department for failing to respond effectively to a 911 call. Even if a state or municipality has restrictive gun laws, police have no legal duty to protect an individual. Thus, it would be highly unlikely for park police to be legally responsible for an individual's protection.

If more people fully understood the way American laws work with respect to police protection of an individual, a strong majority of people in America would be pro-gun for law abiding citizens.
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#205775 - 08/08/10 11:37 PM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: KenK]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1419
Loc: Nothern Ontario
How about this analogy....if it makes sense.

I have a right to defend myself against a dog attacking me. You own a restaurant where by law, dogs are not permitted (except seeing eye dogs of course). I am a customer at your restaurant and sitting out on the streetside restaurant patio (on private property). A person with a dog walks by and the dog bites me. Does the .gov and restuarant have an inherent responsibility to protect me even though dogs are not permitted because if dogs were permitted, I would of had my dog with me and chances are, the other dog would not have bitten me because my dog would of stopped it.
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Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

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#205777 - 08/09/10 12:45 AM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: ireckon]
KenK Offline
"Be Prepared"
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 2211
Loc: NE Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: ireckon
In 2005, the Supreme Court decided again that police have no legal duty to protect an individual.


I've never heard of that case, but I kind of thought that might be the case. Interesting. Thanks for that info!!

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#205779 - 08/09/10 01:05 AM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: KenK]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I have been retired from the NPS for a number of years, but the classical policy that prevailed then (and I'll bet still applies) is that preservation of life is No. 1, fire suppression is #2.





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#205780 - 08/09/10 01:19 AM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: hikermor]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
I have no problem with people who want to rely solely on the police for their protection. Go for it. What I don't agree with, is those people wanting to tell me I have to follow their same illogical thought process.

If a place prohibits firearms, I don't go there. Not necessarily because I want to carry a firearm there. But because I am in more danger when I am there. These places are meccas for criminals (WITH firearms).

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#205799 - 08/09/10 05:49 PM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: haertig]
pezhead Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/18/10
Posts: 76
Loc: Minnesota
We've had some places here take down there signs after getting robbed. Now they like it when some of us come into there place of business.

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#205812 - 08/09/10 09:38 PM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: pezhead]
JBMat Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 745
Loc: NC
In the dog/restaurant analogy -

You probably would not have any standing to sue the restaurant or the government, as the laws prohibiting dogs are for health reasons, not safety reasons.

Also, what if your dog incited the other dog to attack - now you are the one getting sued by both the restaurant and the other dog owner - oops, not too much protection there.

You would have a course of action against the dog owner who failed to control his animal - said animal having bitten you.





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#205817 - 08/10/10 01:00 AM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: KenK]
MartinFocazio Offline

Pooh-Bah

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 2203
Loc: Bucks County PA
Originally Posted By: KenK

At least in the U.S., with the recent Supreme Court rulings that a person has a natural right to be able to defend themselves (as in bear arms)


Not quite, but very close. This came down to the SCOTUS using the 14th amendment - yes THAT 14th amendment that has been in the news - to assert "equal protection" regardless of what the "States Rights" claims to the contrary were. This was a matter of inclusion of the second amendment and as a federal preemption of state law, and that's what the big change was.

The case - found here - http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-1521.pdf - MCDONALD ET AL. v. CITY OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

uses to words "natural right" only once, as follows:

"Lysander Spooner championed the popular aboli-
tionist argument that slavery was inconsistent with con-
stitutional principles, citing as evidence the fact that it
deprived black Americans of the “natural right of all men
‘to keep and bear arms’ for their personal defence,” which
he believed the Constitution “prohibit[ed] both Congress
and the State governments from infringing.” L. Spooner,
The Unconstitutionality of Slavery 98 (1860). "


The case was summarized as follows, emphasis mine:

"Two years ago, in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U. S. ___, this
Court held that the Second Amendment protects the right to keep
and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense and struck down a Dis-
trict of Columbia law that banned the possession of handguns in the
home. Chicago (hereinafter City) and the village of Oak Park, a Chi-
cago suburb, have laws effectively banning handgun possession by
almost all private citizens. After Heller, petitioners filed this federal
suit against the City, which was consolidated with two related ac-
tions, alleging that the City’s handgun ban has left them vulnerable
to criminals. They sought a declaration that the ban and several re-
lated City ordinances violate the Second and Fourteenth Amend-
ments. Rejecting petitioners’ argument that the ordinances are un-
constitutional, the court noted that the Seventh Circuit previously
had upheld the constitutionality of a handgun ban, that Heller had
explicitly refrained from opining on whether the Second Amendment
applied to the States, and that the court had a duty to follow estab-
lished Circuit precedent. The Seventh Circuit affirmed, relying on
three 19th-century cases—United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542,
Presser v. Illinois, 116 U. S. 252, and Miller v. Texas, 153 U. S. 535—
which were decided in the wake of this Court’s interpretation of the
Fourteenth Amendment’s Privileges or Immunities Clause in the
Slaughter-House Cases, 16 Wall. 36.

Held: The judgment is reversed, and the case is remanded.

In many ways, this case leaves open questions of more interpretation, and it does NOT strike down all possession laws or even licensing requirements. In fact, it may have the opposite effect, as it does include language.

From SCOTUS blog (emphasis mine again):

"Five members of the Supreme Court on Monday assured state, county and city officials not to worry: the new decision protecting a “right to keep and bear arms” against government action at any level — local, state or national — “does not imperil every law regulating firearms.” But the Court majority did not have any assurances for judges at every level, that they will be spared the duty of ruling on many forms of gun regulation that a legislature, county board, or city council has chosen to enact. And the Court gave those judges very little guidance, in its ruling in McDonald, et al., v. Chicago, on how they are to analyze those laws.
The Court did not even rule on the constitutionality of the one law that was at issue — a handgun ban in Chicago — nor did it tell the Seventh Circuit Court what constitutional standard to apply in judging that law when the case returns there. That particular law’s fate, like that of so many others around the nation, now must await a new round in court."

So, it's not at all a "done deal"

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#205818 - 08/10/10 03:52 AM Re: An Odd Thought About Places that Prohibit Firearms [Re: MartinFocazio]
haertig Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/13/05
Posts: 2322
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: martinfocazio
So, it's not at all a "done deal"

Maybe not on paper, but in practice - yes. Very few places try to ban firearms these days, save a handful of large cities known for corruption and crime (Chicago, Washington D.C., New York City, etc.) States are jumping on the bandwagon to relax firearms restrictions and allow concealed carry. The word is out that more firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens lowers crime, it does not increase it.

Laws designed to put onerous restrictions on firearms have been tumbling down for the last few years, without the Supreme Court telling governing entities that they must do this. There are a few cities/states whose leaders are too self-absorbed to understand what's right, so they will have to be told what they must do. It will take a few more years for the courts to "tell" these primadonnas what they must do, but it will come. Aside from the folks that have to live in such places, it is a "done deal" for the great majority of us who live in normal places.

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