The New York County (Manhattan) District Attorney's office appears to be engaged in a shakedown of local businesses, forcing them to pay six-figure so-called "contributions" or risk unwarranted criminal penalties, in a move more like that of organized crime than the agency charged with protecting citizens, said a national group representing the rights of Americans who own and use pocket knives. Knife Rights Chairman, Doug Ritter, said, "the New York County District Attorney, Cyrus Vance, Jr. appears to have targeted legitimate, honest knife dealers, accused them of selling illegal 'gravity knives,' and threatening criminal prosecution if they don't pay up. The so-called "gravity knives" in question appear to be conventional one-handed and assisted-opening knives, which represent 80 percent of the pocket knives sold in the U.S. today." Some of the major retailers have reported agreed to six-figure settlements and have netted the DA millions of dollars.

Knife Rights was instrumental in passing legislation last summer, in response to a misinterpretation of law by U.S Customs and Border Protection, that specifically excepted these common pocket knives used daily by millions of Americans from the definition of a switchblade under the Federal Switchblade Act. The legislation was supported by Customs and was passed by U.S. Congress, with strong bipartisan support, and signed into law by President PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. on October 28, 2009.

Ritter said, "Given the passage of this legislation, the DA is attacking people who sell knives that were clearly defined by Congress as simple pocket knives, legislation that was supported by leading Democratic lawmakers such as Henry Waxman (D-CA), Charles Rangel (D-NY), David Obey (D-WI) and others. This action is not only unethical; it places Mr. Vance at odds with even liberal urban lawmakers and outside the mainstream on this issue."

Among the dozen or so businesses that have reported to have been targeted in New York City are Eastern Mountain Sports, Orvis, Paragon Sports, Lowe's and Home Depot. At least one out-of-state Internet retailer has been targeted.

You can view one of a number of news articles and images of the DA's Thursday afternoon news conference (held after this initial Knife Rights new release was sent out) here: http://bit.ly/ar7FLT

The six-figure so-called "contributions" are being made to a "public education fund" controlled by the DA in order to secure "deferred prosecution" agreements to avoid threatened criminal charges. Additional outrageous and over-reaching demands have also apparently been made to avoid prosecution.

Said Ritter, "This appears to be little more than extortion on the part of a District Attorney who appears determined to shake down honest businesses and remove from the New York market common tools used daily by New Yorkers in their homes, in business and while recreating. These are simple pocket knives, legitimate tools used every day by millions of law-abiding Americans."


More: http://bit.ly/ayTLMc

Doug: Here's a link to the NY Times story:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/nyregi...agewanted=print

Is there a link anywhere to what knife models were affected by this?

(Not to be political, but it's wonderful living in a state where public policy on both knives and guns is set by NYC politicians....)

Thanks for posting this. Tim W.

Wow, that is so sad when law abiding folks and businesses get caught up in things like this. I’ve always had horses and for safety sake (horses and mine) carried a one handed knife with a good locking mechanism when working around them and especially when trail riding, so I’d guess that would be what they are referring to. I’d also guess from the description and pics of the knives confiscated that safety will be compromised for the users with the choices left on the shelves.

Doug, thanks for all your work and effort on this issue and for bringing this to our attention.

So 19 of 59 murders in NYC last year were stabbings. I'd like to know what kinds of knives were used.

How many were kitchen knives used in domestic disputes?

Go get 'em, Doug!


His office will next target out-of-state knife merchants who sell to New Yorkers, Vance said.

"We will make undercover purchases out-of-state," Vance said. "We may use the Internet as an investigation tool."



I was contemplating a camping vacation in the Adirondacks. Forget that, I will stick with Virginia and the Blue Ridge Mountains.

And in a running story....NY continues to hemorrhage residents.

Were I in any sort of retail business I don't believe I would ship anything to several states including New York.

I'm sure I would inadvertently sell something with an intolerable sodium content, pencils that are too sharp, flashlights that are too bright, food that's so good it's addictive, books that could be used at weapons, etc.

A little more information:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/17/ap/business/main6591619.shtml



Found the legal precedent, sort of. It sounds like the interpertation is any knife which can be "flicked" open and locked. So, lockbacks without a heavy locking spring and liner and frame locks because of their weak detente are the most likely targets. Sliplocks (SAKs) are probably still safe.

Laws making specific items illegal with the intent of curbing violence are seriously misguided in my opinion. If someone is intent on doing someone harm, they will find a way.

Quite a while back we were working on a large software implementation project with a pair of vendor representatives. We worked with them closely for a number of months. They both seemed very nice and normal. It turns out one of those people later bludgeoned his wife to death with a power tool.

If power tools are even on the list of things people want to ban, they have to be pretty darn far down the list.

In addition to not stopping crime, we should remember that when we restrict self defense tools that require less physical strength, we don't make everyone safe, we leave the weak at the mercy of the strong.

Thanks for all your work Doug.

-john

This PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. tool is learning well from his masters - sounds like the same kind of scam being done by Mayor Bloomingidiot to the gun dealers....... Is there something in these politician's Perrier Water that rots their brains...?

I remember various USA states trying to ban the Buck folding hunters back in the 1970s.
I can remember that in one of their cases, I think it was in California, it was argued that they were switchblades because a police officer was able to hold one by the blade and open it by jerking it in the air.

The idea that you would be left holding the knife by the blade and threatening the other person with the handle seemed to be a consideration the officer missed.
(Notice my avoiding any pun on whether he got the point)

Yep where will they stop. What about a 10 or 12 inch cooks knife?

Doug, the article on DNAInfo says the following:

"Through the investigation, authorities went to 41 retailers in the borough that sold knives. They were able to purchase 43 illegal knives from 14 stores, including 31 gravity knives and 12 switchblades, the DA said. Those types of knives are outlawed because the blades snap into place."

Read more: http://dnainfo.com/20100617/manhattan/ho...s#ixzz0rFs3jd4L

As far as I can tell this was the only account that differentiated between gravity knives and switchblades - other media accounts simply said 43 illegal knives were purchased. Apparently authorities were able to purchase 12 switchblade knives.

I think I know your feeling on gravity knives. Would you agree that the sale of switchblades is illegal? Or do you disagree with the authorities definition of some knives purchased (12) as switchblades (ex. is their definition inconsistent with the Federal Switchblade Act)? Does Knife Rights support or oppose laws against switchblades?

The sale of Switchblades to the general public is illegal in NY. The knives they are calling switchblades are not switchblades, they are assisted-opening knives and that is what we got passed last summer to clear up any question, at least at the federal level. In any case, they do not meet the definition of a switchblade, even using NY's standard definition. As for switchblades in general, Knife Rights is supportive of efforts to eliminate restrictions on switchblades, as you can see from our successful efforts in NH which removed such restrictions.

Thanks for the clarification Doug!

keep fighting the good fight Doug; we're behind you.
we knew some would try crap like this when the legislation was passed.

also.


(i wish it weren't but there's really no way this kind of topic remains unpolitical.)

Whenever politicians want to 'fight crime', they always go after the honest citizens first, because they're the easiest to deal with. I have yet to see the day that they actually go after criminals first on issues like these -- I guess that's more like work.

Sue

This is the drop of the other shoe in Mayor Bloomberg's quixotic campaign to totally disarm NYC residents, albeit only the law abiding ones. In a sane world, the FBI would arrest them both on RICO charges, and we would only see them with Rod Blagojevich on Donald Trump's next Apprentice show. Then we could change the channel or turn the TV off. Sigh...

What he said. Can't thank you enough for all the hard work Doug.

NYC has three basic long standing rules when it comes to pocket knives:

1. It can't lock open. (they seem to interpret the law as, any knife that locks open is a potential gravity knife)

2. It can't be longer than 4"

3. It can't be carried in the open (that means, no blades clipped to your pocket for example).

Of course, there are certain exceptions to these, but that is the general ruling on knives.

The whole gravity knife statute is, IMO, an outdated and vague law that should be modernized and clarified. One has to remember that, when it was written, one-handed opening blades weren't as common as they are now. For the most part, they've entirely replaced the traditional pen knife in American society.

See, at the time, you either had people carrying traditional pen knives for day to day activities or people carrying switch blades, gravity knives, daggers, ect so they could get them out fast in a fight; with little in between. The law was originally written to prevent the latter without taking into account changes in technology and public opinion over time. They never could have foreseen the advances in technology that went into something so simple as a pocket knife.

It would be like me trying to write a law about computers based on 1970's technology. At that point in time I couldn't have even imagined how ubiquitous and advanced computers have become. Things that are taken for granted today (like the internet) weren't even imaginable back then.

Navigating through the logic used to outlaw knives has always been a voyage into insanity.
I for one, don't comprehend why the cheapo Spanish and Italian switchblades, made notorious by West Side Story, are illegal yet a similar length kitchen knife, with a blade probably better suited to mayhem, remains legal.
Now that assisted opening knives have further muddied the waters, why is it that a collector's item, like a Luftwaffe gravity knife is illegal while a similar length assisted open knife is kosher? It never ceases to amaze me how horrified otherwise sane people can be when it comes to weapons or sharp tools.
Like Martin Luther King, I have a dream. That one day a man will be judged by his actions and deeds and not by the contents of his pockets.

No offence Mr Ritter; but your post reeks of a smear.
Lots of 'appears to be', and 'reported'.
Did this happen or not? If it did; please say so.
Name one company and say they have been (not 'reported to' be or 'appears to have been') shaken down.
This has been a bad week for right wing claims of government shakedowns. So you'll understand me being sceptical. Is this a 'shakedown' like the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER. claim the 20 billion GP has to put aside to compensate oil spill victims is a 'shakedown' for a white house 'slush fund'.
Ie nothing of the kind.
The Sock

Oh and the PHRASECENSOREDPOSTERSHOULDKNOWBETTER was the name of a political party beginning with 'D'. Not profanity.
The Sock

Sorry I meant a political party beginning with 'R'. Be patient with me. Head full of a cold so I'm not firing on all cylinders.
I'll drop out of this thread now; I'm obviously not up to contributing properly.
The morale of this story is: when you've filled your jacket pockets with survival gear, don't then leave it on the train and catch a cold!
The Sock

We need to install mandatory provisions requiring anyone who seeks to ban anything to prove that a ban is necessary, feasible, and that it would work with no 'unintended consequences'. They should also have to produce a third party economic impact statement. All major bans and prohibitions in the past have been proven failures and have only increased crime wth no loss of ability to obtain the banned item.

Folks, I recognize that this is an emotional issue and it does involve politics because that's one aspect of how this is developing, but I'd appreciate it if we could stick to the direct issues here and not go off on political rants, which is a different thing entirely.

We can discuss the issues without rants and getting into wider issues.

Thanks much.

Mr Ritter,

I am actually quite interested, since you are in the trenches with this struggle, on the thought processes involved amongst the opposition. Surely some of the features or operating principles of these knives and their subtle differences must not escape those that seek to outlaw them.
How do they justify some of the illogical and inconsistent arguments they propose?
I suppose the most pressing one is, what really differentiates a knife of the folding variety, regardless of the opening principles, from a fixed blade knife of similar dimensions?
That is something I have never been able to fathom.
If a knife opens in a tenth of a second that is hardly much different than just whipping out a fixed blade. Why all the hoopla about such things when it would be much easier say, to just pass a law saying that within a certain jurisdiction, all single edged knife blades of greater than 4" are banned for concealed carry.
It would seem that it would be much easier for law enforcement officers as well as the general public to comply with such rules than the current maze of rules and regulations.
I carry a knife every day. Prior to the post 9-11 paranoia, I would keep my Swiss Army Knife in my pocket in all international and domestic flights with nary a problem. The very idea of attempting to use such a knife in any kind of offensive or even defensive action is ludicrous, the blade would probably snap. Surely there are logical and scientific methods that could be employed to educate those in the opposition who are rational and not motivated by fear. I know how difficult it is to reason with someone with a phobia.
As much as I use my knives all the time, I would rather not have to face prosecution, especially when, if you knew me, how ridiculous is the thought of me engaging in any kind of mano a mano combat.

So, if I understand correctly, that Ka-bar folding knife I have in my car, which locks open, is illegal in NY State?

The knife in question is the kabar dozier folding hunter. Seems to be illegal, as I read the comments in this thread.

All I can say, without resorting to vulgarity, is WTF!

If Bloomberg is suing people for selling knives like this, it's beyond ridiculous.

Tim

The law is outrageous. I am all for states rights, but I am not sure states should be able to make laws reducing liberty. I see laws against certain knives as about the same as seat-belt laws and helmet laws. It is already a crime to assault someone so specific tools do not need regulation.

That being said, NY has its own definition of a switchblade. As you said, it does not match the federal definition. In Massachusetts, a Firearm is defined to mean a handgun. In MA, a rifle is not a firearm! Go figure. States have their own definitions of things. They are allowed to though.

While this law should be overturned and certainly not enforced, I think I am going to disagree the knives in question don't meet the NY definition of switchblade.

Here is the law:



An assisted opening torsion knife does have a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a device or spring in the handle of the knife. When you push the tab on the blade (which I agree is not a button), you apply hand pressure to the spring. And a blade might even qualify as a device.

Also, most locking pocket knives meet their definition of a gravity knife.

You may disagree, but I can assure you that an assisted opening knife does NOT meet the NY definition of a switchblade and I am not aware of a single instance where there was competent legal representation where it was found to be otherwise in numerous instances in many states with similar or identical language. Moreover, there are a myriad of other related issues which are involved that also preclude the assisted openers being considered switchlades. Knife Rights has the preeminent legal team in the country, in terms of knife law, working on this. Trust me when I tell you the DA doesn't have a leg to stand on in this regard. More soon...

Doug,

From just looking at the slide show of pics put together by the DA, I would think safety of the user comes into play. I noticed the typical box-cutter, that is in every tool kit in America, pictured and would think if you take the one handed blade deployment away, that most of the time they would be left in the open position between cuts and there you go with an important safety consideration. And even tossed back into the tool box in the open position.

While the DA in NYC might not be able to relate to me being able to cut a rope on a horse in a panic situation with one hand, he should be able to picture someone cutting up some carpet or whatever that requires two hands and putting the open knife down between cuts.

The 7 stores which have not settled need the legal reasons why the knives do not meet the NY definition.

I may be incorrect, but I bet most people (even CNN readers) reading the news think NY is nuts. These kinds of bans are outdated. That stuff was tried from the 1920s until the 1980s and are known to be failures. I know lawmakers make laws and the more laws they make, the larger their resume, but what is shocking (even for NY) is to enforce this law for assisted opening knives.

But they did not take action against Home Depot for liner locking knives. Does that mean they just lost the right to enforce that against individuals?

I doubt it.

no, you can see in the DA's undercover video of some of the knives they were complaining about - they would 1/2 open a liner lock, and then flick it open the reast of the way, and the DA was calling it a gravity knife

I think these days the ONLY safe thing to carry in NYC is a small slipblade, or a sub 4" fixed blade believe it or not

I've heard that many of these types of laws were specifically to target "weapons" commonly employed by gangs.

As a result, you get lots of laws outlawing random things like "brass knuckles" and "switchblades".

I think the "logic" they are employing commonly looks like this:

To the public: "gangs use <x>, so if we outlaw <x>, we'll reduce gang violence."
To the police: "gangs use <x>, so if we outlaw <x>, we give you a tool to arrest/disarm gang members."

I feel this logic is flawed in a number of ways.

One, people intent on doing harm will. Laws to not deter the unlawful. By definition, the unlawful don't follow the law.

But most importantly, and this part we seem to always tip-toe around, you deny law abiding citizens a tool that they might need to defend themselves.

As RSilvers already noted, assault, assault with a deadly weapon are already covered. There *are* legal tools in place already.

For example in WA state, anything becomes comes illegal the instant you use it to menace someone with it. But the same object isn't illegal if you use it to defend yourself. This makes sense to me.

The reality is, as someone has already pointed out, banning various objects is the easy way out. They get to say they are doing something against crime.

But the reality is, it isn't the objects, it is what is done with them.

Focusing on the objects only distracts us from the real issues. And yes, the reality is allowing certain items to be available to the general public makes the justice process more difficult. But, nobody said freedom was easy. But I think it is a critical and differentiating building block of our country.

-john

It also seems like a prity penny went to the DA. were they running short on money?