AyersTG suggested someone start a new post on the 'ideal SAK'. So lets attempt the impossible - develop an ideal ETS SAK. this is my idea for an outdoor based ETS SAK:

-Large size (111mm)
-Large locking blade
-Wood saw
-cap lifter
-corkscrew
-can opener
-screwdriver (built into can opener and cap lifter)
-awl
-lanyard attatchment
-tweezers
-pen
-needle
-eye-glass screwdriver

and now my EDC ETS SAK suggestion.

-small body (91mm)
-1 medium blade (non-locking)
-1 mini blade (non locking)]
-cap lifter
-corkscrew
-can opener
-screwdriver (built into can opener and cap lifter)
-awl
-lanyard attatchment
-tweezers
-pen
-needle
-eye-glass screwdriver

these are what i would think of as the ideal ETS SAK's. they cover your basic needs of a tool, yet still aren't as big and heavy as a multi-tool.

what are your ideas?

Seeing as how I've never used a corkscrew in my life (at least not for its intended purpose), I would probably replace the corkscrew with the little magnifying glass I've seen on some of the larger SAKs. This would give me another potential fire making option - at least on sunny days! Other possibilities might include an LED flashlight (I have one on my little 'Executive' model SAK, along with the aforementioned pen) or maybe a whistle built into the side of the knife. <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK, since Jonathan got this started, I'll toss in some initial factoids instead of getting some sleep like I should be. BTW, we should include the 95mm knives as well - those are the ones with the Alox (aluminum) scales

I have three sample knives in front of me: current model "2 layer" 91mm knife, a current Rucksack "3 layer" 111mm knife, and a ~25 year old "4 layer" 91mm knife that is a precursor of the Huntsman (not Hunter, which is an 111mm).

The 2 layer knife averages about 14.1mm thick, the 3 layer knife averages about 17.9mm thick, and the 4 layer knife averages about 19.5mm thick. The cellidor handles vary in thickness a bit depending on where the measurement is taken - thickest over a mounting stud; thinner between studs. None of these measurements include the slight protrusions on the right side due to the corkscrew or phillips screw driver (they use the same "notch" in the right side handle if the phillips is mounted on the back of the blade - more on that later - but that is why you may have a corkscrew or a phillps on the back, but not both - usually)

I'm sticking to Victorinox because that is what I am familiar with - Wenger owners jump in anytime.

A 91mm 4 layer knife is the largest EDC pocket knife that is comfortable to me. I can (and have) worn a saber on my belt, but I'm talking POCKET KNIFE here. In a 91mm knife, a 5 layer feels FAT to me.

Layers are not identical in thickness, but they run in the range of 3.5mm to 4.1mm (and then subtract about 0.75mm for one side plate common to an adjacent layer).

In a 111mm knife, which is not too large for me in any field clothing (but not office), a three layer knife feels too slim. Handling various fixed blade knives and measuring thicknesses, I extrapolate that in a 111mm knife, a 5 layer 111mm knife would probably be "just right", but I have not picked up one yet to verify this.

BTW, the reason a 111mm does not suit me in office togs is because they do not have clips to orient them vertically; a 91mm lies in the bottom of my front pocket without protruding, but a 111mm "sticks out" laying horizontally in my front pocket. YMMV.

One final note before I move away from handles/layers: the natural grip for non-straining tasks is different between the 91mm and the 111mm.

As for the locks on 111mm - all I have handled, including this specimen, are loose, even NIB. Yes, they lock securely enough for me for this kind of knife. No, they are not movement-free like even an ancient Buck lock back folder or any of my liner locks. There seems to be about 2-3 degrees of "clearance" movement in the Victorinox lock. I think the Wengers are lock backs (correct me if I am wrong), and even tho I favor Vics, I imagine the Wengers lock up better. And the Wengers lockbacks have a more suitable blade shape (clip point). FWTIW...

Next post, some pics. Tomorrow/this weekend, some serious thoughts from me. For now, let me leave this seed: All the 2 blade knives I've examined COULD have a longer small blade. I'd like to see a drop point main blade and a clip point small blade that is slightly longer than the existing blade. The existing sort of "saber grind" profile is good, and the existing choil is good, although I would like to see it a little larger and deeper if taken out of the (bolster?) thick part of the root of the blade.

Y'all jump in on this - maybe we can cook up something neat - if nothing else, there must be SAK smiths out there who will do mods...

On to the next post... *edit* - I really need to zonk out - I'll continue this late tomorrow or this weekend, including some pics - I have to upload them first and I'm too tired to do that tonight. * end edit*

Tom

For the 111mm lock blade, I too wish you could fit the pen and needle in like the swiss champs. I wonder if there is a way to drill some kind of tunnel into the scales to put the pen in....

As for the EDC SAK,
ALL 91mm models with the cork screw can be modified to accept the pen and pin. You basically need to know a nice SAK dealer, choose the SAK with your favourite implements e.g. Huntsman / camper etc and get the guy to CHANGE the Celidor scales to that from a swisschamp which accepts the pen and pin. They usually have spare scales for repairs and such, and add the eyeglass screwdriver and you have your perfect EDC SAK.

<img src="images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That wouldn't be possible because the magnifying glass sits in the main bit of the knife with the blades and the corkscrew is on the back. The only thing that Victorinox make that the corkscrew could be replaced with is a phillips screwdriver.
My ideal EDC SAK wouldn't be how you mentioned. Since I live in the countryside, my ideal one would have to include a saw and i'm not really certain that the small blade is nessecary wouldn't the magnifying glass be more useful?

My 'Huntsman' SAK has a saw, and that was one of the features that attracted me to that particular model. Obviously, the corkscrew couldn't be replaced by the magnifying glass as is; I presumed that we were describing our 'ideal' SAK. For example, my Huntsman has both a corkscrew and a 'parcel hook' on the back, neither one of which is of much utility to me. I like your idea of putting a Phillips screwdriver back there next to the awe, which still leaves one empty position for...something. Hmmmm...I'm beginning to wonder if my 'idea' SAK would even be practical size! Knives, screwdrivers, a file, a saw, a magnifying glass, oh my! <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Starting with the 91mm 4 layer knife package that suits me for EDC...

The Huntsman and its variants seem to be a good start. This is the Huntsman Plus, which adds the tiny screwdriver, straight pin, and pen to the package:


The Fieldmaster, AKA the BSA Huntsman, replaces the corkscrew with the large Phillips screwdriver. Since both the corkscrew and the mini screwdriver are important to me, I’ll stick with modifying the Huntsman Plus, but this variant may interest some:


As stated, I'll start with the Huntsman Plus. Changes I would like to see to this model:

1. Main blade shaped as a drop point.

2. Second blade lengthened as much as possible and shaped like a clipped point – very long convex clip, to make this a slender “splinter-lifter” and “small game” style blade.

3. Ruler marks on the woodsaw: 0 – 5 cm on one side and 0 - 2 inches (preferably with 1/10 sub divisions, but 1/16 OK) on the other. The max would be about 6 cm / 2.5 inches and those are neither handy nor could the zero marks be at very usable positions, so I opt for the 50mm / 2 inches marks, positioned closer to the end of the saw blade.

4. I think I’d like the tip width of the screwdriver blade reduced slightly. It seems large for some tasks and tempts one to put way too much torque on the blade. I’m hoping for some specific dialog on this as I haven’t really thought this part through yet.

5. Modify the “small” screwdriver tip on the can opener blade to be a flat Phillips driver similar to the micra as large as possible without compromising the can opener.

6. The reamer is frequently called an “awl”. It is not an awl; it is a borer-reamer. It’s a terrible awl (I’ve used it as one) and a pretty versatile reamer in my experience. If anyone knows what its original purpose was (cleaning out a pipe stem???), please sing out… but it is useful often enough that I’d leave it. OK – there are times when I wish it made a smaller diameter hole, so maybe it should be made slimmer. I can more easily increase the diameter of a hole than decrease it…

7. … Which leads me to the parcel hook. Huh? Modify/change this as follows: Make this a bonafide awl – sure, put a thread hole in it (say, large enough to readily take an inner strand from 550 cord), but make it an real awl. I don’t care if it’s round, oval, or rectangular in cross section, but it should simply pierce a hole in cloth, plastic, canvas, leather, etc and NOT have a cutting edge(s). Also, I think that careful attention to the tip could give us a hybrid: the tip could be made to function as a small or tiny Phillips driver while retaining its piercing ability. I understand that simply modifying the existing hook will make it difficult to raise the awl out of storage, so that must be factored in. One suggestion is to make it slightly curved almost like a sail maker’s needle so the shape itself forms a “nail nick” about mid-point. No cutting edges, just a piercing point. Victorinox can figure this out without my help, I’m sure.

8. I am neutral on the toothpick, so it can go if it’s in the way of the next several items. Ditto the ballpoint pen.

9. Replace the straight pin with two or more sewing needles. Three would be great: A moderately large Sharps with a big eye, a very large ballpoint (we have an awl, remember) with an eye large enough to take an inner strand of 550 cord, and as large a curved “sail maker’s” needle as can be snaked in around the studs. Mount the sharps in a plastic carrier that looks suspiciously like a modified toothpick, mount the ballpoint needle in a similar carrier (probably made from spring steel), and mount the curved needle by friction points molded into the inside of the cellidor scale. Oh – just for kicks, magnetize the straight needles – perhaps mold a small rare earth magnet into the scale to hold/help hold needles in place AND re-magnetize as they are sheathed/unsheathed. Orient the magnet so the points of the needles will polarize to point North. FWIW, the current ballpoint pen might be modified to retain the pen function and also serve fairly well as a large ballpoint needle by adding an eye to it - but I am after the needle function in any event - the pen function would be laignape.

10. Inset a metal dimple somewhere on on scale to serve as a needle-pusher, since we don't have a thimble. I gravitate to a location near one end, opposite side from the next item, because I think putting it in the center will tempt a puncture wound to the palm from a slip.

11. At the end away from the lanyard ring, something that will necessitate thickening a scale slightly: a sparking wheel assembly that uses standard lighter flints. It should be on a removable carrier to allow changing flints and if possible the carrier should have one or more spare flints clipped in (I can use the tiny screwdriver to pry them out). Design it to be used to create aimed sparks in the stowed position. This is the most challenging modification I’d like to see – the others are intrinsically feasible. If this is simply impossible, then mount an oval or rectangular cross section ferrocerrium sparking rod of usable length in that end.


12. Let’s look at this model:



This is an Altimeter Plus. It’s essentially another Huntsman variant at first glance. Lose the watch/barometer/thermometer, and we have… a Huntsman with an additional screwdriver termed a “fine” screwdriver. Oooooh! I want that on my “ETS” knife! This is a 4 layer knife, so there is no reason to deny this. While we’re at it, make it a fine toothed file on one side (nails, if nothing else, but make it hard enough to touch metal) and put a couple of diamond-dust hook and needle sharpening grooves on the opposite sides – no need to bother facing the entire side with diamond dust, but that would be OK. Alternatively, the tip could be a wood “chisel” or it could be ground dual-purpose like Leatherman screwdriver tips.


13. What’s missing? A file/hone; ideally a de-mountable one with medium and fine diamond on the sides, metal file on one edge, diamond hook/needle groove on the spine, and a removable standard triangular carbide tool bit on the tip (as a scribe, glass scratcher, etc). But to retain everything else, we would have to go to a 5 layer knife. If Victorinox would do this, even if it is not demountable, I would surrender the scissors. Otherwise, keep the scissors. Heck, I’d even consider a 5 layer knife…

I’ll post some thoughts about a 111mm knife later this weekend.


Let the debates begin...

Regards,

Tom

Excellent ideas. However there are a couple of ideas that I am uncertain about, namely the sparking wheel. This seems too complecated to me. On another forum, people were talking about trying to combine a ferocium rod with an SAK. One idea was to replace the tiny screwdriver in the corkscrew with a ferocium rod with the screw in top piece. Another idea was to replace the tooth pick with a tiny piece of ferocium that could be removed and struck. IMO both of these designs would be too flimsey. The only real possibility that I can think of would be to add a BSA hotspark or similar as standard to the lanyard ring.

Why not attapt the reamer to make a good awl instead of having both?

Is this meant to be an EDC urban tool or an outdoor/survival tool. It appears to be the latter (which I favour). In this case do you think the scissors are nessesary? If we did away with them we could shed a layer or replace them with a more useful tool like your suggested file.

These are my ideals. Thanks for a great post Tom <img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Pete,

Thanks for the comments. When I wrote "EDC", I mean that - urban or wilds all the same to me. My old version Huntsman is in my pocket all the time, period, unless I am in a mess dress uniform (sort of like a tuxedo) - very rarely; no more than 4 evenings a year at most now that I am retired.

There are at least two problems with a sparking rod integral with this knife. The screwdriver-corkscrew version you mentioned would be darned difficult to hold onto and offers a rather small area to scrape. Inserting one in a scale without significantly thickening the knife could be done. I would cement it to a 1/4 arc section of spring steel to hold things together in the event of a fracture and allow it to be used down to an otherwise unattainable thinness, but I'm still skeptical of being able to retain it in my grasp in use. (split a tube lengthwise into 4 sections; cement a ferrocerrioum rod into one of the sections and attach a plastic keeper/ handle to one end)

If it can be done, I'd like the sparking wheel. It's one handed (a plus). Not really complicated, although there is potential for a rustable component (the spring) unless a suitable rust resistant steel could be used for the spring.

If not feasible, your comment about adding a BSA hot spark is on target. I suggest it be tethered with a simple quick release. Here is what I EDC instead:





Nothing special about this combo - the connector came with the inexpensive small lockback knife and it works very well. Bulkier than some alternatives, but I already had it, so...

I don't NEED the scissors; I also EDC a Micra and usually have a WAVE on me. But thinking about this as the sole tool, I would really like to keep the scissors. I've used them a lot over the years - hehe - actually I'm using them x2 daily right now to cut tape and latex gauze for wound management (a little surgery on a foot recently). I suppose I've cut more moleskin for folks with these scissors than anything else, but they are functional in any event. As I said, I would be willing to give them up for the file I described.

Back to you, Pete...

Tom

<img src="images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. By sparking wheel, do you mean something like the sparklite? I still can't quite picture this. So the main tool would act as the handle and the sparking mechanism would stick out unprotected? I don't think is what you mean is it.

Your idea about cementing the ferocium to a piece of metal and inserting it in to the scale seems feasable. However this would soon wear down and wouldn't be much use in a survival situation (better than nothing albeit).

That quick release thing looks like a good idea. I use a metal one like doug has on my keychain, but plastic would be better as it wouldn't knock against and chip the hotspark.

All good ideas so far.