What's state of the art in Ham radio data? Can I reasonably expect ham radio folks to bring data connectivity to my emergency operations center? Possibly internet?

Depends on where you are, how your local group trains

Here in NYC, at least in Queens, we'll show up with High Power WiFi (serious gain and power - like watts), VHF Data via packet, and maybe (depending on who) HF data - IF the local VHF data nodes are up, we have a link to a bi-directional HF node that's on generators here in Queens.

We regularly drill on getting email data across the state without using the internet - but we also have like 3-4 points to bridge into the internet local

We show with a pop3/smtp that will hook right into your network, and a set of outlook/outlook express scripts to add that account to your local PCs - we setup the "post office" - we can hook it to your lan/broadband - if it sees the internet is up, it sends via that, then tries modem, then wifi, then vhf packet, then HF, then will try and fax - auto fallback

So the tech is there - just depends on how far your local guys are willing to go, and what they have trained for

It's not reasonable. Many hams have data capability, but there are several flavors, and you need to let them know what data transfer mode you'll expect them to use.

I'd suggest having a meeting with them and developing a consensus on what they'll use (packet radio, WinLink2000, short messages through APRS, WINMOR, PSK31, and on and on). Some of these modes have internet nodes, mail boxes, etc. If you have hams experienced in emergency communications, you'll have some people who can talk to you about what you need and guide you in building your base.

For some information, drop by
http://www.winlink.org/
and look at their "How to ..." tab.

Phillip -

Thanks for the advice. I called our local AREAS coordinator, and he was very nice, and had a lot of information (and questions) for me. Unfortunately, I quickly learned that my concept for a medium-band backhaul to the Internet quickly ran aground - not on the technology issues, which seemed to be surmountable, but by my request that I could put a computer with, say, Skype and a mail client HERE and have the data connection go over the air to some THERE where the wires were still up.

Well, there seems to be some issue with if the person sending instant messages via Skype is a licensed ham operator, and the role of the control operator vs. the user and it all got complicated very quickly. Not to mention there seemed to be all to much complexity. We don't have the kind of setups that Charlie mentioned.

So I contacted some other folks and found out about long-range non-line of sight ethernet links as used for industrial communications. I found this gem of a device for under $1,000

http://www.industrialethernet.com/aw900x.html

Now, I am located up high at my command center, and with a 20 mile Line of sight range to a lot of possible end points and at 1.5 MB/sec, it's looking like an ideal solution - best of all, it need no license, and from the looks of it, it's a simple enough setup.

I think we can get a grant for this equipment, if we make it some kind of a shared resource. Looking into it.

Think redundancy with that backhaul. They have minor issues that generally crop up at MAJOR times.

Oh, with our setup, there has to be a control operator too - BUT just like a repeater, we can set it in an auto mode, so long as there is a control operator to turn it off, or stop 'non complying' transmissions (don't surf/send porn in your emails please, or else we will have to turn you off)

Some hams/ares groups look for a reason NOT to do something, or do it "their way", and don't really bother to read what the guys at the FCC says is acceptable in an emergency. The winlink postoffice type things (which is what we are using for the multimode sending) is basically, for all intents, a setup with a control operator - we just need to be able to monitor/shut down if need be, so there has to be a ham on site by the transmitter - now, how the signal gets TO the transmitter is your business, and where it goes after that is the other hams business - but so long as I'm talking USA to USA, I can let you use my rig, so long as I'm in control to ensure things stay legal - it doesn't mean that I have to actually push the 'push to talk'

Before you spend all that money, see how far you can get with this:
http://www.usbwifi.orconhosting.net.nz/

That website annoys me because all of the useful information is held in the images themselves. This one talks about a 10km link experiment:
http://www.usbwifi.orconhosting.net.nz/alfaaudit.jpg

It's not 20 miles, but it's cheap to experiment. I built one, with a USB wifi dongle, a 5m USB extension cable, a garden hose joiner and a Chinese hot oil mesh skimmer. I could pick up APs over 9km away without trying too hard. Of course, if you have a parabolic reflector on the other end too then range will increase (but it's tricky to line up).

Oh, and to answer your orginal question, Hams cannot easily set up internet infrastructure at the drop of a hat. The minimum service you should expect is to be able to relay voice messages out to somewhere. Anything more than that is highly dependent on operator skill, equipment availability, terrain and location, factors which are highly variable.

HTH,

A

Oh, and Winlink is evil.

I think you should plan on expert installation of the 900 MHz, and have the expert choose the antenna and other specifics. 2.4 GHz (802.11 b/g) can also work over such distances if done right.

Why Skype? Sending out SMS messages via email is far simpler on the infrastructure, works in low bandwidth scenarios and is store & forward: Skype probably has some unknown bandwidth floor requirement the radio operator has to meet (and I think some HAM schemes are quite slow, 9600 bps nominal or less).

Let me look into a few things at work. There are other "better" options including optical LOS backhaul.

More later

I was a member of this group maybe 10 years ago, and I remember that they had this massive, wonderful interlinked repeater system, with 2M/440 and even some 6M cross-band links. You key down here and you're heard where you need to be heard.

However, the whole system was "locked down" and the ONLY time it was ever activated was when a designated control operator entered the secret codes to open the network - and that was done for 15 minutes for a weekly emergency net and then it was shut down. I know - I ran the weekly nets for a while and it was made very clear that this was a system that was never to be used without direct, hands on control, no matter what.

I'm just trying to get these guys in a place where they can help, but it seems that they have a lot of obstacles to work through. I'll let them work it out based on their own internal process.

As a quick aside - there was a hamfest a few weeks ago, I got an email back in Feb advertising it, so I replied - "Sure, I'll take a table - what's your paypal address so I can send you the money?" reply: "We don't do paypal". So much for a "high tech" hobby.

Skype was just an example, as far as SMS, it's good, but I have better options (including, just like the LAFD and the OEM of NYC, Twitter!).

I've used Skype at 28.8Kb/Sec - with Voice - the results are fine. I like Skype because it has insanely efficient codecs and unlike 97% of the other voice/text chat tools I've used (and I've used them ALL) Skype JFW on any hardware/software combination and any NAT/Firewall combination I've ever encountered. I can use Skype to reach the PSTN as needed and vice versa.

After even more study today, I find myself, sadly, finding that the Ham radio guys - who were once innovators of things like APRS, Packet Radio, and even that ancient precursor to cell phone networks, Repeater systems - have become ensnared in a knotty mass of habit and rules, leaving them in the same basic category of people I know who are absolutely expert with all things muzzle-loading, but look with disdain on a Beretta CX4 Storm. It's great to know all about voice based systems, and I like voice comms - sometimes - but data comms are even more critical today. The commercial options are cheaper, faster and as good or better than the options I have with the ham radio.

I can't explain much about what's available but you need to remember that ham radio cannot be used in furtherance of business. Thus things like connecting to the internet via ham radio contain significant legal perils for the ops.

My employer floated the idea of listing all the hams who might like to volunteer to help during a major emergency. No problem, folks identified themselves as hams.
When "business continuance in case of emergency" became part of the discussion the hams noted their regulatory prohibition against helping in that way. And the whole idea went dormant - as it should.

If you were pursuing "business continuance" for your employer you'd encounter similar issues.

If you were pursuing backup comms for the fire dept the barriers should be fewer since that would clearly be in the public interest.

I went to that hamfest. The usual gray-ponytail crowd was out in force. Great place to buy a broken walkman for more money than a new mp3 player costs. The biggest hit was a couple of totes of radioshack parts in dusty blister packs going for a dollar each. Which is about what they cost in the store, if you can find them in the store anymore.

That's a shame. The ARES coordinator is the guy I would have gone to. It seems you talked to someone bogged down in bureaucracy, though.

Amateur radio does require licensed operators; I'm not sure this should be a surprise. But the ARES guys in my area are using ham radio for what sounds like the same thing you want. I'll check and see what I can come up with for more information for you. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area, so the hams around here work for Stanford, NASA, Lawrence Livermore, and high tech companies, so I may be spoiled by my resources.

Do you consider yourself in the Philly area or Manhattan? Bucks County can go either way. :-> (I used to live in the Philly area.) Maybe I can put you in touch with more helpful groups.

Although it sounds like you're well on your way to getting things set up, I still suggest having a ham set up for a workaround. This article:
http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2010/03/03/11371/?nc=1
is clearly slanted in our favor, but it mentions the problems in Haiti in getting their existing infrastructure back on line and how they used amateur radio in the meantime. Note that they used voice via phone patch for comms in some cases. See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqaKzIkyBug
for an example. And they also used Skype, winlink email, and echolink.

I'm curious, what sort of information is it that needs to be transmitted?

Have you looked into DStar?

The trickiest situation I can imagine would be, for example, ordering fuel delivery for the backup generators at a private hospital.

But I can't imagine that being a problem if (1) it's done during a civil emergency and in support of that emergency, (2) non-HAM communications are not available and the order is time-sensitive, and (2) the order is done or approved by a government emergency management official. If current rules preclude it I'm pretty sure the FCC would issue a clarification if asked.

Another trick is whether the operator is allowed to have only "general knowledge" of the messages or must have "specific knowledge". If the FCC holds the operator responsible for each word spoken then every email or SMS would need to be pre-screened by the HAM. I would again bet that at worst the FCC would favorably clarify this for civil emergencies.

ARES is based around a county by county structure, with an EC at the county level, with (Possibly) an DEC and a SEC (who reports to the section manager) above that

NYC has a fairly small (based upon our population) group, but is fairly forward looking. We have the general attitude (particularly in Queens, where I USED to be the EC, and AM an AEC) of "we are communicators FIRST, hams SECOND". We train to get the message through by whatever the BEST method is. Doesn't hurt that we have some serious telecom people involved, and there are a lot of 'connections' with folks in the land mobile radio service (aka commercial radio)

In Queens, almost our entire focus for the past 7 or so years has been digital comms

As for Winlink being evil - the way it's currently used on HF _IS_ pretty bad, but we consider that way way down the list.

As I said, for digital comms, our FIRST choice is setting up 'standard wifi' or even getting their broadband working (hey, having members involved at cable and telco operations on the digital end helps). The NEXT choice is using the ham channels of the WiFi spectrum with amps (Yes folks, ham radio operators actually have 1st dibs on 2300-2450 Mhz - which is channels 1-6) We can run SERIOUS power on channels 1-6, enough that we have tested 12 mile WiFi links! (do NOT step infront of that transmitter please)

The other thing is that the NY Metro area (Marty - I have NOT checked if it reaches your area) has an extensive "flexnet" digital packet backbone, which is how WE move Winlink (and for that mattter non winlink) data. We come in on a VHF 'User port", it gets bumped onto a UHF Backbone, and routed to where we need it to go - you have a map of all the possible paths, and you can route around nodes that are down, and there are extensive gateways to/from the internet on the network - route your winlink packet to one of them, it it puts the email out onto the net, and routes it back (and it doesn't do the evil stuff that HF winlink does - just an increase in packet traffic on an already digital backbone)

Between our groups here in the city, with some help of some guys in Nassau, we are fully prepared to drop up to 3 voice repeaters and 3 packet nodes wherever needed in the area, and get them linked in

So, as I said, it all depends. Here in Queens, You're likely to have someone show up with digital modes out the ears, with the necessary help to setup digital backbone relays (or have communications to one of the other guys who does) and has access to some of the best repeater points in the city

I don't speak for the original poster and his area, of course. Here in the SF Bay Area, D-Star is less useful for two reasons. We're in the range of Air Force over the horizon radar operating in 70cm, so our use of that band has been greatly limited. Repeaters have been required to operate at lower power, so the use of D-Star on 70cm is limited. Worse, our number of 2M and 70cm repeaters is so great, the addition of new ones on those bands is being resisted, and coordinators are having problems fitting in repeater band-pairs in 2M and 70cm due to crowding and the objections of existing repeater owners.

What sort of emergency are you planning for that would take out both POTS (dial up 56K), GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz), UMTS/HSDPA (850, 1900, 2100 MHz), T1, DSL, ADSL (2,2+) for your required data connectivity but not also take out another network such as HAM packet radio data (if available) or even your own network constructed using the fixed non LOS wireless Ethernet connections etc.

You will still need a gateway to the Internet for Internet access, where on the periphery of the comms blackout would you expect the gateway to be located?.

Do you have Satellite Broadband services where you are located to act as the gateway for your private WWAN.

Constructing your own emergency wireless network (combination of Routers, Wireless Ethernet, Satellite Broadband Gateway, and local Wifi would be expensive (the Power Supply requirements i.e. Solar Battery, Gen sets etc, create the additional expense) but again what makes you think that your own network would be anymore resilient than commercial providers except from the point of view of data communications congestion assuming of course that commercial networks either fixed cable, POTS, Wireless 2,3G are available in your area.

Chances are if all the above commercial communication network providers go down, you are basically left with the Post Office, carrier pigeons, runners and the odd HAM running his valve set talking into his mike saying 'Mayday, Mayday, Is there any one out there, over'.

BTW if you do end up creating your own emergency network, the old fashioned red rotary dial telephone on your VOIP network will add a little style and help justify the cost.

A hurricane can do that quite easily, especially since repairing damage is not a simple task since merely getting to a site may be an adventure.

Even Line-of-Sight goes a long way in flat terrain. On a clear day you could see skyscrapers in downtown Houston from where I grew up 30 miles southeast of Houston: it's not hard to imagine being able to reach a repeater atop one of those buildings.

Holy cow! You and I were DEFINITELY at that one, as I was there with my son and he was utterly befuddled by the "old crap" that was for sale at most of the tables.

I was in room "B" where the real garbage was for sale, although the guy next to me with the LED lights was kind of fun. Someone was selling an HP Oscilloscope for $3,600 (well, TRYING to sell it for $3,600). 250mhz bandwidth, weighs like 200 lbs. Apparently they were unaware of stuff like this.

I was also amused by the guys trying to sell a cordless phone from Vtech for $20. It was - literally - identical to the one I bought for $14.95 new in the store.

I brought in a bunch of relatively recent-vintage stuff, priced it really low - after all, it was stuff that I didn't want, need or plan to use ever again and I - literally - sold it all before I got most of it on the table. We were sold out of all but two items in less than 15 minutes.

Maybe I saw you? I was the guy who left the Indigo iMac G3 and the old IBM laptop on the table with the "Free" sign on it and left. I had made my $120, netting $100 for 15 minutes and was NOT hauling anything home!

I'm 2 hrs from philly and 2 hrs from NYC...so take your pick.
The haiti setup is what I expected. I am speaking with our OEM about their ideas.

Ice Storm with Flood. That's the scenario and we have had a close call twice in the last 6 years.

Here in the USA, we don't have advanced data services over the air like you Europeans. I can't get any "3G" class data service at all, GSM/EDGE is spotty, at best. We have one carrier with a decent signal in the area (ATT), one with minimal signal (Verizon) none at all for Sprint and t-Mobile.
There is one tower covering the area, it's in a flood plain, and the equipment cabinet is not elevated.

All of the wireline communications into our area come in via one tree-line road. We lose those wires, we lose Telephone, T1, Cable TV.



Sure! You tell me how to make my $3,000 a year budget pay the $125 a month service fee for that, and I'll be happy to consider it



I'll have voice comms via county systems, which are properly constructed and backed up. What I won't have is access to are the surprisingly common data tools that we use all the time.

At this point, it's just a reality check - we have all these computer based (web based actually) tools for NIMS and NFIRS, and there's a slew of really handy online communications tools that let me do a lot with a little - but it all crashes down when I lose network.

One thing you DID bring to mind is the crappy Hughesnet system (which my mom has). I have seen a few folks who have that system in place at their homes, I could ask them if we could relocate their system temporarily in an emergency. It's got only 250Mb a day limits, and it's terribly slow, but it's better than nothing. Hmmm.....you know what? that WOULD work. I know at least three people who I could go to for this...

Hey, thanks! Problem solved. We simply get an agreement to pay their bill for the month + any data overage charges and I get a comms system without the monthly expense.

I was probably there around 10-11 o'clock. I remember the LED lights, but I don't think I saw an iMac. Perhaps it and you were gone already. I was there with numba-three son and numba-four son. They were dissapointed because I couldn't find one piece of junk I would let them buy.

In case you have some more stuff to unload, here's the mother of all hamfest lists for our area:
http://www.qsl.net/w2vtm/hamfest.html

I'll probably tailgate at one of them this summer.

We were gone by 9:00 AM.

Thanks for the link.

Having read about the Haiti set-up, can you provide more information about your needs? The hams I'm talking to think you've limited yourself to Wi-Fi. How about packet? Have you looked into that?

I've closed this issue. After discussing my anticipated with the appropriate folks at county, they have ample backup communications systems - including full satellite internet, multi-line telephone and more in self-contained mobile communications vehicles that they can deploy very quickly in a modular fashion. We may be dirt-poor up here at the north end, but we're in a RICH county and they have a LOT of physical resources on hand and ready to go.

Thanks everyone for the input.