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#197461 - 03/07/10 06:02 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: ILBob]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
I agree that not every trauma/bleeder needs a tourniquet. I've never used one.

But, I bet most folks haven't had the same combat conditions, where there isn't just 1 patient at a time, and there isn't an entire ambulance and fire engine team reporting. Usually, it's 1 medic and a crap-load of casaulties happening all at once. He can't spend 5 minutes with each holding pressure, and he can't have the battle buddy do it for him - someone needs to be shooting back.

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#197464 - 03/07/10 06:29 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: MDinana]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 648
Loc: Arizona
This is also why hemostatics and (more importantly) tourniquets are great tools in the back country or survival situations. While you probably won't need to be shooting back, you could easily find yourself in a situation where evacuation is a LONG time off and you may be the only person able to provide aid. You may even be the only patient as well as the only care giver. The quicker you stop bleeding the more blood you retain... it really is that simple.

Of course you need to balance how much your carrying vs. what could happen in what your doing. My FAK for wildland firefighing is beefier then the FAK I carry for day hiking.

Originally Posted By: MDinana
I agree that not every trauma/bleeder needs a tourniquet. I've never used one.

But, I bet most folks haven't had the same combat conditions, where there isn't just 1 patient at a time, and there isn't an entire ambulance and fire engine team reporting. Usually, it's 1 medic and a crap-load of casaulties happening all at once. He can't spend 5 minutes with each holding pressure, and he can't have the battle buddy do it for him - someone needs to be shooting back.
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#197465 - 03/07/10 06:30 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: Alan_Romania]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Thank you very much. Most helpful.
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#197466 - 03/07/10 06:38 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: ILBob]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 648
Loc: Arizona
While I am sure that this would work better then nothing, paracord is way too thin and will cause significant damage. I have use a triangular bandage as a tourniquet using a similar technique quite effectively. A cut up a shirt or other piece of clothing before using a piece of paracord.

Originally Posted By: ILBob

I have never felt that I needed a fancy tourniquet either. The chance of me needing one is so low that I am willing to go with a piece of paracord and a pen. I can tie the ends of the paracord together in about five seconds and use a pen or something similar as a windlass to tighten it up. I know it is not ideal but it is better than letting someone, especially me, bleed to death before someone more competent and presumably better equipped is able to help.
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#197472 - 03/07/10 07:39 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: Alan_Romania]
Lono Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 10/19/06
Posts: 1013
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Originally Posted By: Alan_Romania
This is also why hemostatics and (more importantly) tourniquets are great tools in the back country or survival situations. While you probably won't need to be shooting back, you could easily find yourself in a situation where evacuation is a LONG time off and you may be the only person able to provide aid. You may even be the only patient as well as the only care giver. The quicker you stop bleeding the more blood you retain... it really is that simple.


I'm up for recertifying my WFA this year, and may step up the longer 5 day WAFA, depending on schedule: it will be interesting how the instructor deals with tourniquets and hemostatics, or if they deal with them at all. A couple years ago the response was there's no real place for tourniquets in the backcountry, they identified all sorts of issues with releasing pressure and restoring circulation after having it on for ~an hour or more: in short they said if you commit to a tourniquet you may be committing to losing a limb. And they also said the majority of bleeding is stopped with direct pressure, which is true - and when there isn't the pressure to evacuate a casualty right away as there may be with an EMT and close transportation, you can apply direct pressure much better by yourself or putting a confident Scout on the task for you. I will agree the game is to prevent blood loss and keep the patient out of shock, so it makes sense that a tourniquet may have a place on a serious bleeder. I imagine though that will probably come as a result of a fall, and they may have much more serious wounds to deal with. Anyway, I'll follow whatever protocol I'm trained in, but may carry the tourniquet on longer hikes - I think the two I have are SOFT-T types.

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#197474 - 03/07/10 08:06 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: Alan_Romania]
ILBob Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/05/10
Posts: 776
Loc: Northern IL
Originally Posted By: Alan_Romania
While I am sure that this would work better then nothing, paracord is way too thin and will cause significant damage. I have use a triangular bandage as a tourniquet using a similar technique quite effectively. A cut up a shirt or other piece of clothing before using a piece of paracord.

Originally Posted By: ILBob

I have never felt that I needed a fancy tourniquet either. The chance of me needing one is so low that I am willing to go with a piece of paracord and a pen. I can tie the ends of the paracord together in about five seconds and use a pen or something similar as a windlass to tighten it up. I know it is not ideal but it is better than letting someone, especially me, bleed to death before someone more competent and presumably better equipped is able to help.


Perhaps something wider is in order. I still think a tourniquet is not something I am likely to need and its fairly easy to improvise. We are talking about dead versus not dead here. Thats when I would be using one. I am not going to quibble over some minor tissue damage caused by the use of a less then ideal tourniquet if the other option is dead.
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Warning - I am not an expert on anything having to do with this forum, but that won't stop me from saying what I think. smile

Bob

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#197483 - 03/07/10 10:00 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: Lono]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 648
Loc: Arizona
I would be interested in hearing what they tell you. WMS has come out supporting both hemostatics and tourniquets but there is some controversy as to what should be taught at the level.

Originally Posted By: Lono
I'm up for recertifying my WFA this year, and may step up the longer 5 day WAFA, depending on schedule: it will be interesting how the instructor deals with tourniquets and hemostatics, or if they deal with them at all. A couple years ago the response was there's no real place for tourniquets in the backcountry, they identified all sorts of issues with releasing pressure and restoring circulation after having it on for ~an hour or more: in short they said if you commit to a tourniquet you may be committing to losing a limb. And they also said the majority of bleeding is stopped with direct pressure, which is true - and when there isn't the pressure to evacuate a casualty right away as there may be with an EMT and close transportation, you can apply direct pressure much better by yourself or putting a confident Scout on the task for you. I will agree the game is to prevent blood loss and keep the patient out of shock, so it makes sense that a tourniquet may have a place on a serious bleeder. I imagine though that will probably come as a result of a fall, and they may have much more serious wounds to deal with. Anyway, I'll follow whatever protocol I'm trained in, but may carry the tourniquet on longer hikes - I think the two I have are SOFT-T types.
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#197484 - 03/07/10 10:06 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: ILBob]
Alan_Romania Offline

Addict

Registered: 06/29/05
Posts: 648
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: ILBob
Perhaps something wider is in order. I still think a tourniquet is not something I am likely to need and its fairly easy to improvise. We are talking about dead versus not dead here. Thats when I would be using one. I am not going to quibble over some minor tissue damage caused by the use of a less then ideal tourniquet if the other option is dead.


I agree that for most people a dedicated tourniquet would be not necessary, but pre-planning how to go about making an improvised tourniquet and knowing how and when to use one would be good knowledge to have.
_________________________
"Trust in God --and press-check. You cannot ignore danger and call it faith." -Duke

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#197485 - 03/07/10 10:43 PM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: Alan_Romania]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
I've always been taught that a tourniquet needs to be 1.5-2 inches wide. But the ones I saw (about 5 types) were all 1 inch nylon webbing.

I guess 1 inch is fine. Paracord might work in a pinch, but you're going to cause lots of local trauma, including potentially cutting into flesh in an attempt to get it tight enough.

But a nylon belt or something similar, and you're set.

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#197510 - 03/08/10 04:35 AM Re: Random First Aid lessons [Re: hikermor]
epirider Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/03/05
Posts: 232
Loc: Wyoming, USA
Ok have to chime in again. I agree with the "its a better option then dead", comment. In my bag that I carry in the jeep, I have an Isreali tourniquet. I hope to God that I never have to use it, but like said - it is a better option then dead. The space it uses in neglegible, but it gives me just 1 more option. YMMV. I am a big fan of the H-bandage - again hoping that I never have to use it.

There is nothing worse then having run out of options. It is a bad feeling standing there trying to think of what else you can do and realize that you have exhausted all your resourses and still cant save the patient. Just my .02.
_________________________
A government big enough to give you everything you want,
is strong enough to take everything you have.
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