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#196834 - 02/28/10 07:29 PM Efficient Dishwashers
Todd W Offline
Product Tester
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 1928
Loc: Mountains of CA
FYI for those that hand wash thinking they are saving water.

http://1greengeneration.elementsintime.com/?p=314

http://www.landtechnik.uni-bonn.de/ifl_research/ht_1/homeenergy_0504_dishwashing.pdf

My wife normally does the dishes but she has been injured so I have been on duty, and 40 minutes into it I realized (again) we should have a dish washer. So, I set out to the web to prove what I had been told that using a dish washer is actually more efficient than doing it by hand. Above are my findings. (More efficient for us meant less water consumption, and also that means less energy running our hot water heater (gas), but slightly more to have an electric machine wash.) In the end we will save TONS of water, propane, and spend maybe more in electrical to run it, I haven't compared electrical but I do know our overhead lighting in the kitchen uses 450 watts total so it may be a wash since I won't be in there wink

I am a "super hand washer" because a day ago I pre-cleaned everything, and today I cleaned everything. I haven't measured my sink but I would guess it's more than 4 gallons and I've gone through it 3 times today + rinsing and the pre-wash... well over 5x an energy star dishwasher I`m sure.

Our biggest issue is not putting tons of water and food into the septic, so even with a dish washer we will scrape into the trash our leftovers.

Those of you on septic and with a dish washer how many times a week do you wash your dishes in the machine?
_________________________
Self Sufficient Home - Our journey to self sufficiency.

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#196835 - 02/28/10 07:36 PM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Todd W]
Todd W Offline
Product Tester
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 1928
Loc: Mountains of CA
Some soap that people like I found:
http://www.seventhgeneration.com/Free-and-Clear/Dishwasher-Detergent

Septic Safe
Grey Water Safe

This summer we may finish the gray water project, and plumb the dish washer into it!
_________________________
Self Sufficient Home - Our journey to self sufficiency.

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#196836 - 02/28/10 07:42 PM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Todd W]
Teslinhiker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/14/09
Posts: 1419
Loc: Nothern Ontario
We once had a house on septic. The dishwasher and sink(s) water was piped out of the house separately into a grey water discharge area well away from the septic field. This discharge area was simply a large pit in the ground and filled with 3/4 inch crush rock and sand.

It would be fairly easy to have an existing dishwasher drain using this method, however for existing sink plumbing, it may not be feasible. Also not all locales support grey water discharge so you will need to check local laws.
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Earth and sky, woods and fields, lakes and rivers, the mountain and the sea, are excellent schoolmasters, and teach some of us more than we can ever learn from books.

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#196843 - 02/28/10 09:20 PM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Teslinhiker]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I had my dishwasher removed because I didn't have the patience to fill it, I kept running out of dishes and silverware before it was full, and without it there, the little 'cave' is the ideal place to tether train a puppy for housebreaking.

Greywater isn't technically allowed BY LAW in most places (CA is starting to do it), but there doesn't seem to really be any reason NOT to do it if you can arrange it. And many towns are of the 'don't ask/don't tell' opinion. Many existing laws (for lots of things) are on the books so they can have a way to stop you if you go overboard. For instance, city law may say you can have a maximum of four dogs. You have five, they're well-mannered, quiet, you keep them confined and there's no odor. No one is going to fuss about that, so there's no problem. However, if people move in next door with five loud, obnoxious, aggressive dogs that are allowed to run and terrorize the neighborhood, there's a law that can slap them down.

Also, a good thing to have when you have a greywater setup is a handy valve that can switch where the water goes if it contains something you don't want going directly into the soil.

It's even better if you have your discharge area surrounded with plants that will feed on the nutrients in the water.

Sue

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#196851 - 02/28/10 11:12 PM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Susan]
Todd W Offline
Product Tester
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 1928
Loc: Mountains of CA
Pretty much anything where I am is don't ask / don't tell wink

I looked up CA Regs on grey water a while ago, and they allow pit draining if constructed properly, it seems pretty easy to do to even be "legal".

Our washing machine is on a separate system than septic but it's temp right now, and uses corrugated drain pipe, once we go 'perm' I'd LOVE to tie my shower, and dish washer into this with the washing machine that would get all the water except the kitchen sink and toilet which is perfect.

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Self Sufficient Home - Our journey to self sufficiency.

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#196854 - 02/28/10 11:42 PM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Todd W]
Art_in_FL Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
A lot depends on how you do dishes. The way I do them is to pour a little detergent and water into a quart plastic tub, This I dip a brush into and scrub the dishes. I pile the dishes up, soapy and wet, in the other bay. once done I rinse them off with the hand sprayer hose unit on the faucet and transfer them to the rack to drip-dry. I don't fill the sink and I don't run the water.

Also I note that dishwasher and hand washing are not mutually exclusive. A lot of people, particularly overly fastidious types and older folks, pretty much hand wash the dishes and then run them through the dishwasher. IMHO a lot of this behavior comes from the back when dish washers were pretty weak and couldn't handle certain types of food. Like dried remains of a meal or cheese. The best ones, typically high end units, are so good now you barely have to knock the bulk food off. But still I watch people washing their dishes and then stuffing them into the dishwasher.

Running the dishwasher for tiny loads, or not unloading, is another common practice. More than one family I know uses their dishwasher as their dish cabinet. So the clean dishes, 90% of the load, get washed.

Heresy it is but I figure that some dished don't need to be washed at all. I went weeks camping and never washed my pot, pan and big plastic cup. When your hungry you eat every last bit of food and a rinse, assuming it is necessary, and a wipe dry is more than sufficient. If your eating alone a quick rinse is sufficient. Even with family and friends a quick scrub with detergent and rinse in hot water is sufficient. At home my big, 18 ounce, plastic cup that feeds me a constant supply of black coffee gets washed every few months.

I suppose if I drank my coffee with cream and sugar I would need to give it a bath more often. Reason enough to avoid cream and sugar. Creme and sugar also destroys keyboards and other stuff you spill it on. Black and hot mops right up.



Originally Posted By: Todd W
I haven't compared electrical but I do know our overhead lighting in the kitchen uses 450 watts total so it may be a wash since I won't be in there wink


Wow. That's a lot of power use if your kitchen is not the size on an aircraft hangar. Even then, might I suggest some efficient task lighting. I recently worked with some LED strip under-counter lights that impressed me.

You might want to look into compact fluorescent units. I traded in my 60w incandescent bulbs for 20w coils, a mix of CW and WW in the kitchen and bath, and have been pleased with the savings.

There are a few spots incandescent bulbs are still handy. The energy loss is all heat so if your running heat to keep a space warm and your running incandescent lights they are not as inefficient as they seem. What they lose in lumens per watt they make up by providing heat.

If your running air conditioning the issue runs the other way. Incandescent bulbs are inefficient producing light and you have to get rid of the heat the produce. You get screwed coming and going.


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#196879 - 03/01/10 02:10 AM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Todd W]
Eugene Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 12/26/02
Posts: 2997
Originally Posted By: Todd W
Some soap that people like I found:
http://www.seventhgeneration.com/Free-and-Clear/Dishwasher-Detergent

Septic Safe
Grey Water Safe

This summer we may finish the gray water project, and plumb the dish washer into it!


I tried the seventh generation stuff and it wasn't getting the dishes clean with a fairly new dishwasher and city water.

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#196885 - 03/01/10 04:54 AM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Art_in_FL]
Todd W Offline
Product Tester
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 1928
Loc: Mountains of CA
Originally Posted By: Art_in_FL
A lot depends on how you do dishes. The way I do them is to pour a little detergent and water into a quart plastic tub, This I dip a brush into and scrub the dishes. I pile the dishes up, soapy and wet, in the other bay. once done I rinse them off with the hand sprayer hose unit on the faucet and transfer them to the rack to drip-dry. I don't fill the sink and I don't run the water.

Also I note that dishwasher and hand washing are not mutually exclusive. A lot of people, particularly overly fastidious types and older folks, pretty much hand wash the dishes and then run them through the dishwasher. IMHO a lot of this behavior comes from the back when dish washers were pretty weak and couldn't handle certain types of food. Like dried remains of a meal or cheese. The best ones, typically high end units, are so good now you barely have to knock the bulk food off. But still I watch people washing their dishes and then stuffing them into the dishwasher.

Running the dishwasher for tiny loads, or not unloading, is another common practice. More than one family I know uses their dishwasher as their dish cabinet. So the clean dishes, 90% of the load, get washed.

Heresy it is but I figure that some dished don't need to be washed at all. I went weeks camping and never washed my pot, pan and big plastic cup. When your hungry you eat every last bit of food and a rinse, assuming it is necessary, and a wipe dry is more than sufficient. If your eating alone a quick rinse is sufficient. Even with family and friends a quick scrub with detergent and rinse in hot water is sufficient. At home my big, 18 ounce, plastic cup that feeds me a constant supply of black coffee gets washed every few months.

I suppose if I drank my coffee with cream and sugar I would need to give it a bath more often. Reason enough to avoid cream and sugar. Creme and sugar also destroys keyboards and other stuff you spill it on. Black and hot mops right up.



Originally Posted By: Todd W
I haven't compared electrical but I do know our overhead lighting in the kitchen uses 450 watts total so it may be a wash since I won't be in there wink


Wow. That's a lot of power use if your kitchen is not the size on an aircraft hangar. Even then, might I suggest some efficient task lighting. I recently worked with some LED strip under-counter lights that impressed me.

You might want to look into compact fluorescent units. I traded in my 60w incandescent bulbs for 20w coils, a mix of CW and WW in the kitchen and bath, and have been pleased with the savings.

There are a few spots incandescent bulbs are still handy. The energy loss is all heat so if your running heat to keep a space warm and your running incandescent lights they are not as inefficient as they seem. What they lose in lumens per watt they make up by providing heat.

If your running air conditioning the issue runs the other way. Incandescent bulbs are inefficient producing light and you have to get rid of the heat the produce. You get screwed coming and going.



Hi Art, the articles I linked to actually went over the different types of washers that you mentioned too and hand nifty names for them, lol!! I agree, it depends on person-to-person how things are done!

We had LED bulbs that used a total of like 5w TOTAL but they kept dieing and at $6/each I got tired of replacing them, and the bulbs are these stupid twist-lock. We are going to end up replacing all three fixtures in our kitchen so that we can utilize CFL or LED in a standard size that are much more affordable or have much higher end options available. Trust me the fixtures were not my idea wink wink and I mentioned it at time of purchase... now she's agreeing with me since you can feel the heat from them! Our kitchen is rather large, 15x16 if I recall.

You sound like me, if I cook eggs in my Teflon pan I just hit it with water when I`m done and a napkin and it's clean, ready to use again. I also re-use the same coffee cup / tea cup for about a week then swap out.

When I rent the mini-excavator for the garage I`ll probably dig a hole for gray water, sand and rock, and then have a drain at the bottom to fill the pond.
_________________________
Self Sufficient Home - Our journey to self sufficiency.

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#196886 - 03/01/10 04:55 AM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Eugene]
Todd W Offline
Product Tester
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 1928
Loc: Mountains of CA
Originally Posted By: Eugene
Originally Posted By: Todd W
Some soap that people like I found:
http://www.seventhgeneration.com/Free-and-Clear/Dishwasher-Detergent

Septic Safe
Grey Water Safe

This summer we may finish the gray water project, and plumb the dish washer into it!


I tried the seventh generation stuff and it wasn't getting the dishes clean with a fairly new dishwasher and city water.


Interesting, how dirty were the dishes you put in? Fresh from the table, scraped, pre-washed?
_________________________
Self Sufficient Home - Our journey to self sufficiency.

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#196891 - 03/01/10 08:57 AM Re: Efficient Dishwashers [Re: Todd W]
TheSock Offline
Addict

Registered: 11/13/07
Posts: 471
Loc: London England
I've switched to paper plates and plastic cultery for the cats food and am considering it for us too. No soap manufactured and water heated versus more trees cut down.
The Sock
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The world is in haste and nears its end – Wulfstan II Archbishop of York 1014.

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