#196319 - 02/22/10 03:55 AM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: rafowell]
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Geezer in Chief
Geezer
Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
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For centuries, an incident like this would have been recorded as "SV Concordia lost at sea with all hands, unknown location." I just finished reading the biography of the British mountaineer and sailor H W Tilman, who departed at age 80, with a substantial crew, on a sailing vessel from a South American port for the Falkland Islands in 1978, with the ultimate end of sailing and mountaineering in the Antarctic. They were never heard from again.
Technology is wonderful, but it is complicated and intricate, and subject to human judgment. I hope the Brazilian navy will thoughtfully review their procedures.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief
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#196322 - 02/22/10 04:58 AM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: hikermor]
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Geezer
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
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"Two rafts got tangled in the rigging – but the ship's cook had rushed so quickly from her chores that she was still clutching a kitchen knife, which was used to slice through the ropes and free the rafts."
Sue
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#196327 - 02/22/10 05:49 AM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: CANOEDOGS]
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Addict
Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
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The Brazilians sat on the emergency call for 19 hours. Once they got around to launching a search it only took 3 hours to find the survivors.
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#196329 - 02/22/10 07:11 AM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
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Crazy Canuck
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 02/03/07
Posts: 3238
Loc: Alberta, Canada
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I've been following this story for a while. I'm glad that no lives were lost. Still, 40 hours in a raft, in rough seas? That's ugly business.
I don't know the full facts about the Brazilian response. My initial gut response is whiskey-tango-foxtrot, but I know there's always more to the story.
I have heard initial reports that the ship was heading into rough weather under full sail. Speculation or fact, I can't say.
The whole event is surprising, though. My understanding is that these tall ships have a keel so massive that they should bounce back even if the masts are in the water. What gives?
(Full disclaimer: I'm a landlubber, and my opinions are 100% armchair. My experience on tall ships is limited to spilling a drop o'grog on the deck of the Bluenose II, at anchor in Halifax, and a bit over the side too in keeping with tradition. I invite ye olde salts to set me on a straight course.)
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#196331 - 02/22/10 08:01 AM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: dougwalkabout]
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Addict
Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 449
Loc: Texas
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One other thing that's not yet clear: some news articles say the automatic EPIRB failed, and that a crewman swam from a lifeboat to the wreck to ... do something that activated it?
I don't understand this at all. How does one look at a EPIRB from a life-raft and see that it's not working? Maybe it could be seen under debris that would block transmission?
I looked at the SARSAT packet format a couple of years ago and from memory I don't recall any way to indicate if the beacon was activated automatically or manually. But I may remember wrong, or perhaps SARSAT assigns *two* beacon IDs to such EPIRBs to indicate how it activated. Perhaps the Brazilians had a positive indication that it was someone pushing a button and thought that was a non-emergency activation? I'm trying to be generous here...
The boat is Canadian so the EPIRB is probably registered in Canada. Don't SARSAT alerts go through the nation-of-registration at some point in the alert process? I thought in a case like this the Canadians would be notified right away if any of their beacons activated anywhere in the world? I register my cell phone # with my PLB and had assumed this was so someone could call and check for accidental activation before launching a $$$ and risky search.
Good for the crew that nobody was lost.
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#196390 - 02/22/10 10:23 PM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: dougwalkabout]
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Geezer
Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
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"I have heard initial reports that the ship was heading into rough weather under full sail. Speculation or fact, I can't say."
Microbursts are extremely powerful despite their short existence, and they can take down an airliner.
I don't know much about boats, but "under full sail" and "under sail" aren't necessarily the same thing. Sailboats operate under sail, and in storm conditions I think they take down a lot of the sail and just leave a small one (or ones) to keep the boat going in the desired direction. Without (sail) power, they are just adrift.
Sue
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#196394 - 02/22/10 11:51 PM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 2207
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I don't understand this at all. How does one look at a EPIRB from a life-raft and see that it's not working? Maybe it could be seen under debris that would block transmission?
I looked at the SARSAT packet format a couple of years ago and from memory I don't recall any way to indicate if the beacon was activated automatically or manually. But I may remember wrong, or perhaps SARSAT assigns *two* beacon IDs to such EPIRBs to indicate how it activated. Perhaps the Brazilians had a positive indication that it was someone pushing a button and thought that was a non-emergency activation? I'm trying to be generous here...
The boat is Canadian so the EPIRB is probably registered in Canada. Don't SARSAT alerts go through the nation-of-registration at some point in the alert process? I thought in a case like this the Canadians would be notified right away if any of their beacons activated anywhere in the world? I register my cell phone # with my PLB and had assumed this was so someone could call and check for accidental activation before launching a $$$ and risky search.
Good for the crew that nobody was lost. If the strobe on an EPIRB is not flashing, it's not working. Very obvious. If the antenna is underwater, no transmission will get to the satellite. No way to tell from the signal if it was an automatic release or a manual activation, but you can tell the model, which would tell you that basic info, but not how it was activated. Either one will go on when immersed. The alert goes to both the country in which the EPIRB is registered and the country with SAR responsibility for the area the alert comes from. The contact numbers are there so they can call to see if it's a real alert. Absent a contact or absent one saying it's a known false alert (Johnny was playing with it, sorry), they should launch.
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#196400 - 02/23/10 12:51 AM
Re: Concordia Sinks off Brazil: ~40 hrs in rafts
[Re: James_Van_Artsdalen]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 09/01/07
Posts: 2432
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I heard it suffered a knockdown from a strong gust of wind. But that sort of ship shouldn't sink from a simple knockdown.
The ship should be entirely self-righting after a knockdown. Ideally the lee side ports would be closed so the ship doesn't take on water. But even if open it takes a whole lot of water to sink her. Which suggests that they didn't close them after the knockdown and may have abandoned ship before any damage control, close the ports and start the pumps, was attempted. The majority of the people being students, with little or no sailing experience, would have only added to the confusion and panic.
Of course if the ports were left open for several minutes and no other corrective actions were taken sinking is the inevitable outcome. Sailing ships are remarkably tolerant and forgiving but there are limits.
Seems to me there is something odd about how it all happened.
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