I did a search on redundancy and found several interesting threads (loved the one on small survival saws) but none really answered my question. I have been thinking about this (redundancy) a lot and how it relates to pack size and weight and how much gear any one person can carry. To clarify a little bit more I have some specific examples/questions as well.

For example, one thing I have been wondering about is signaling mirrors. I have a PSP with the 2 X 3 Resue Flash signal mirror in it. If I carry this in my pocket should I also carry a larger 3 X 5 signaling mirror in my pack? Should I carry another one somewhere else as well?

Here's another example. If I carry a PSK with three ways to make a fire, should I then carry additional fire-making gear in my pack as well? If yes, should it be duplicates of the same gear, something different, or both?

Do I carry a heatsheet in a pocket and a tarp in the pack? Cereal bars in my pocket and trail mix in the pack? I could go on and on with these kind of comparisons but I think everyone gets the point by now.

I have read several posts in other threads like "one is none, two is one and three is a backup," but when does enough become too much? As a final question, what items do you layer; items that redundancy is a must; and what items do you carry just one, the items you think redundancy is just not neccessary? Would you also relate how you layer them and the reasons why? The information would be greatly appreciated.

Work thru your scenarios and some things become clearer.

For instance- the signal mirror question.

It's a signalling device. Is it the ONLY means you have to make a signal? (probably not) Is it the ONLY kind of signal that will keep you alive? (as in - somebody will call in artillery fire on your position unless you give them a mirror flash) Probably not.
Is there a specific somebody at a time/place that is expecting your mirror flash? (probably not)

So if it's not all that important, and can be substituted with something else (such as a smoky fire, a whistle, a flashlight beam) then it's not important enough to carry two.

I'm not a believer in the one-is-none, two-is-one mantra.
Only for SOME things. For instance, when I go flying, I have a spare pair of eyeglasses within reach. (w/o glasses I couldn't find the airport)
When I go hiking, I have extra warm clothing but only 1 GPS. My one compass backs up the GPS if needed though situational awareness is my real backup. And so on.


BTW- I'm a Reliability Engineer.

Yep, let me summarize/amend a bit,

Prioritize - Identify what is most essential, then work down from there. Hydration is more important than food.

Fit to scale - Identify the scalar needs for each mode of operation. EDC is not the same as BOB.

Multitask - Identify equipment, material, and supplies that can meet more than one requirement. Candles make light and heat.

Skills - Focus more on how to improvise, increasing your knowledgebase, thinking outside the box. The more you can make use of what is readily available, the less you will need to keep with you constantly.

I have never bought into the "one is none, two is one, etc. routine, although if I were in Sales, I might think differently. The one exception I make consistently is the stuff needed to make fire. Typically I will carry a lightweight canister or alcohol stove, as well as all the materials (ignition and tinder) I would use to kindle a campfire. I also tend to go a little heavy on water (I am typically in the desert southwest).

Most of my gear is picked for versatility. It so happens that my very nice, lightweight compass has a mirror, with which I could signal if something happened to my dedicated signal mirror. I usually carry at least some clothing items that are very bright - possible signal application there.

Skill and knowledge are the lightest of all, and can multiply the utility of your gadgets many times over

One basic question for me in deciding how much of each item is: How many am I preparing for? If it's just me then I don't have a lot of duplicates on my person -- pretty much a whistle, multi-tool and lighters (I smoke).

But in my car, where I'm likely to have my wife and/or one or both of my children, I tend to carry more, much more. Heavy on water (at least a case) and food (granola bars, oatmeal, cookies, hard candy, etc.). Also, various tools, shelter materials and cooking gear.

Since you use the word "carry", I'm thinking you're focusing on a situation where you are without a vehicle or it may not be usable and you have to walk to somewhere.

I tend to focus my redundant items on areas that I consider high reward or perhaps make up for areas where my skills aren't what I want them to be. For example, on one camping outing, I decided to test my skills and make fire on my own. First, it took me almost 20 minutes to collect tinder, very small wood pieces and increasingly larger wood and set up a a fire bow with a branch and shoelace. Then another 45 minutes to get an ember -- and that was in good (but damp) weather in the summer. I can't imagine me being too successful on a day like today in Ohio starting as fire that way. Therefore, firestart redundancy is important to me.

So for me that means several fire-starting methods (different types such as lighters, fire steel, spark-lite, wetfire tinders, some steel wool, candles), means of collecting and purifying water, some high-carb light-weight foods, several knives and quick shelter (heat sheets, bivy, tarp, paracord). For you, it could be different.

I tend not to keep too much in my pockets (that's just me) but rather tend to keep most everything in a good quality hydration backpack (kept filled) that can handle 30-40 pounds of gear easily. I keep that in my vehicle with other gear that would be more for sheltering in place (such as if sheltering in my vehicle after getting stuck out somewhere).

Finally, my mindset is that if I would need to hike out, my final (hopefully no pun intended) decision on if I would keep the pack as-is or perhaps swap out some things from my car kit would depend on the specifics of the situation at hand. Weather, distance from my destination, my current state would all be variables.

Regards,

Michael

I only mention it because a lot of others had posted it in the past and it is the mantra by which redundancy is born. For example if I only carry one lighter and it malfunctions, I have none. If I only carry one emergency blanket and it is blown away or disintegrates I have none. And so on. My question is when does redundancy become too much?

Say I go on a hike with DSs scout troop. I want myself and others (esp. DS) to be prepared for whatever comes along (for me the scenario is less important than the preparedness - if it is important to you then you can substitute any scenario in which you might be inclined to carry survival gear and have redundancy with it). So for the hike we carry a PSK that includes items for first aid (small FAK), shelter (emergency blanket or poncho, cordage), fire (spark-lite, matches, lighter, tinder quik, small candle), water (baking bag and water purification tablets), signaling (mirror, whistle, bandana), and maybe some other items such as knife, trail mix, fishing kit, duct tape and so on. You know, typical PSK stuff we all carry but we don't neccessarily want to get into here.

Ok, so if I have these items on me already, do I then turn around and pack similar items in a pouch on my belt? More still in a day pack as well? Do I pack a more substantial FAK, a tarp and coil of rope, similar or other fire making gear, a canteen and cup with more purification tablets, a larger mirror, second whistle, etc? Do I pack just a needle and thread in PSK and put a more substantial sewing kit in the pack or pouch? The paranoid freak in me says "yes" because if I have a hole in my pocket I still have what's in my pack. But let's leave my personal problems out of this for now.

Obviously some items make more sense than others (like a canteen or water bottle - don't want a baking bag to be the primary water carry device after all) but what about the fire-making items, the signaling items and some of the others like duct tape, sewing pins, etc? I feel like if I am already carrying several different ways to make a fire in a mini kit on my person or separately in my pockets that I don't really need additional gear in my pack as well. If I am wrong in this assumption then where does the madness end. Gear in my pockets, a mini kit, duplicates and additional gear in a fanny pack or pouch, still more in a pack? Nighthiker, I am not saying I want to carry this much ... far from it, but I do want to be prepared. Should I carry an extra mirror in my pack if I already have one in my PSK on my person? Should I carry a third, fourth or fifth backup for fire if I already am carrying a spark-lite, bic, and strike anywhere matches? I don't think I do but I want to be sure for my sake and for DSs sake; that's why I am here posing the question.

As I understand, a PSK carried on the person, in pockets, or whatever is intended as back-up to ones regular gear (or to make do when for whatever reason the regular gear is not available). If so then this implies I will be carrying other, probably larger and heavier versions of the same gear (maybe not neccessarily, though, as in the case of someone on a short day-hike who doesn't really plan on staying out overnight but carries a PSK with emergency shelter items in it just in case, but even in this case I wonder how much redundancy is necessary). The question remains, and I perceive it as a more general question, how many layers of redundancy are enough, when does it become too much, and where is the balance? Additionally, what do you carry that is redundant, how much, and why? This way I can see from the voices of experience if I am on the right track or if I need to reevaluate. Please feel free to share what you carry, how much, and why.

Where is the balance...... that IS the question isn't it?

I don't know :-) And I don't know the answer for you either.

My hiking loadout changes with the season, where I'm hiking and distance/duration/company. Lighter is better but having some safety margin is important. I often hike alone so that helps direct what my margin consists of.

I don't think I carry two of anything identical (except spare batteries). Oh, wait, I usually carry 2 (or more) waterbottles. I carry things that will substitute for others such as paracord for shoelaces (it has many other uses of course), a 1" swiss army knife in addition to my 5" fixed blade, my goretex shell in addition to my army poncho, etc.

Everyone who does outdoors stuff has a box of things they've purchased and either replaced with better or set aside as "it seemed like a good idea at the time"

I'd give you mine but..... I might need it someday when I change my mind. :-) (I have a LOT of redundancy at home on the shelf.)

That depends on the level of paranoia, the weather and how much you can carry, i.e. physical fitness. Choosing the right kit geared to successfully fulfill the mission and not the level of redundancy is probably more important unless of course you are purchasing junk that hasn't been tested for the appropriate conditions you will likely come across. Even Antarctic explorers such as Sir Ranulph Twisleton-Wykeham-Fienness have admitted to making this error of judgment when he admitted ditching a down jacket to save weight, which nearly cost him his life.

Encumbrance is the balancing factor, and it is quite a subjective one. For the masses, encumbrance means generally not exceeding the space limits of garment pockets, handbag or briefcase or daypack for EDC. Not everyone is subject to that sort of limit for EDC, but it is common enough to use as an example. Now for handbags, briefcases and daypacks, this is in addition to items not intended as essential survival items, although improvisation can capitalize on those items as well in a pinch. This would be items like notebooks, textbooks, cosmetics, office/classroom utensils, etc. So the inclusion of an acoutrement container is still not just for EDC survival purposes. Rather, we are capitalizing on unused space that always seems to be available on such containers regularly.

Most of the time lately I travel pretty light. I don't often bring a shoulder bag or briefcase to work, so EDC is confined to what I can fit in the pockets of my coat, shirt and pants. Naturally I am not going to pack my pockets to bulging capacity as this is neither comfortable nor of much practical use. So for EDC, I am going to narrow my focus considerably and have a list of small very essential items. These should be things I would use often anyways. So EDC is reduced to fundamental lifestyle type necessities, such as a small multitool, a keychain flashlight, a small butane lighter, and so on. My list won't necessarily match what others have, nor be in the same priority, but it is a fair representation I think.

Since it is impractical to carry a BOB or even an expeditionary pack around with you most of the time, it is essential to put less useful but more robust items in it. By less useful, I mean to say things that are less fundamentally necessary for our regular or standard operating procedure. Maybe I should refer to them as limited use items, since that really is their nature. For instance, as an EDC, I might wear my leather coat most of the time, primarily because it is just robust enough to protect me during my daily routine yet I can wear it 9 months out of the year. Conversely, my down parka is only practical under extreme conditions, and so it is of limited, yet vital, use. Limited use items, then augment the EDC and allow us to operate under more extreme conditions, but at the cost of more bulk and weight. Redundancy of some items allows also for upgrading a like item to something more durable, longer lasting, or similarly enhanced. So, while EDC is intended as a compromise between usefulness and bulk, larger packs incorporate both redundancy and enhancement, as well as other non-repetitive items which are also of limited, but vital, use.

There again, even with the larger packs, a balance must be struck between necessity and girth. It is counterproductive to build a kit that is too cumbersome to allow suitable mobility, or one that is not much improved over the standard EDC fare. Therefore, a little planning, some experimenting, and reliable advice will help to determine what sort of items are important enough to include both in EDC and more larger secondary kits.

Ultimately, each person will have to discover that balance for themselves. You study, you practice, you plan, and hopefully you come up with a compromise that satisfies your criteria for what is going to be important and what is more superfluous to have in a situation you might find yourself in.

As I stated at the begining of this post, it becomes quite a subjective thing. I would not expect anyone else to have the same set of EDC items I have just because what I carry is good enough for me. That some might only indicates that we share common lifestyle elements and experiences, but is no indication either of us may have been right in our selection.

In short, there is no universal answer. Sometimes redundancy is essential, other times it is wasteful.

Well, I view the process of re-evaluating what you carry as something that should NEVER stop. You always add, remove or change items to adapt to changes in season, environment, fitness and travel companions. At least I do, and I don't have any plans of stopping anytime soon.

The question you ask is a valid one, but do you notice how the answers you're getting are essentially variations of the theme: Figure out what works for YOU! That is because no one can make that decision for you, nor can we know all the specifics about your situation necessary to make that decision.

That does not exclude a meaningful debate of the balance. Personally I carry very little in terms of redundancy. I'll list them here:

Fire: Lighter + some sparking implement (sparklite or fire steel). Some PJ cotton balls are backup for natural tinder.

Shelter: A combined tarp/bivy bag/poncho thingy + plastic poncho + garbage bag (not all of these all the time). If I actually plan on sleeping outside I will bring tent/tarp and a sleeping bag. Now the tricky part: The level of redundancy depends on my planned activities. If I will leave the tent for short hikes I will bring some minimum backup emergency shelter that will go along for the short hikes. If I will either carry or be with my tent at all times I may say "to heck with 0.6 kg of bivy bag, I have a friggin tent (also an excellent bivy bag, BTW - don't panic if you can't pitch it) and if I feel particular paranoid that my tent may blow away I'll just bring some big trash/garden leaf bags".

Flashlights - but that's just because I'm addicted to shiny things. Otherwise, it would be scrutinized according to Benjamin's decision check list.

Knife will sometimes be backed by multitool (mission dependent).


Some of the points made in the "backpacking light - deodorant..." thread are highly relevant to this discussion. Ultra light backpacking is an exercise in the art of minimizing to the extreme, with close to zero redundancy. There's a lot to be learned from the ultra light backpackers, but we don't need to embrace their philosophy to the fullest.

In summary, I will say that redundancy makes sense
a) for some very critical items (but very few!) Fire, shelter, water. And you seek redundancy in function, not duplicate items.

b) If separation from your main gear is likely. (Such as wandering off from your camp on a supposedly short hike, or being tossed out of your canoe).

Edit: This is from a wilderness trip perspective. For EDC, Benjamins thoughts are highly relevant.

I see the stress for redundancy mostly about being prepared for multiple situations. As noted by the examples in the original most, most redundancy reflects having a specialized device in your main pack and having a smaller, lighter backup device on your person. Your main pack serves as the supplies for the main gamut of emergency situations. Your on-person backup serves for the scenario in which you cannot access your main pack.

This type of redundancy has objective purpose, and is so warranted in my opinion. If you find redundancy that does not serve and actual purpose, that would be venturing into “Too Much” land.

All such good answers!

IMO, it kind of depends on where you're going and what you're doing, and the conditions you're likely to be doing them under.

You probably wouldn't need a full (say 30-lb) backpack to go to work. It would get old fast, and then you'd start leaving it at home, and if you did need it, that would be the time you did.

If you're just going to work a few miles from home, you could take a basic PSK. It's not likely you would need a lot of firemaking materials or a signal mirror or separate shelter other than what you're wearing.

If you commute thirty miles through forest or mostly unpopulated country, you might carry a smaller backpack that was relatively lightweight for warmer seasons, and possibly more stuff in a larger pack for colder seasons.

If you do a lot of traveling throughout your state, or fly your own plane, etc, you'd probably want to keep quite a bit more stuff in a backback that would leave your hands free.

Plan for what you're doing and where you're going.

If you can't lift the pack off the ground, you've got too much stuff in it.

Sue

If your redundancy prevents you from carrying other important gear, then its too much.

To me its all about what you really will carry. If you're not carrying it, then you probably won't have it when you need it. Less can be better.

Several people here have posted the same thoughts I have on redundancy. It really depends on where you are headed to and the expected odds, if you will, of needing redundancy.

When we go hiking locally near populated areas and on trails that see a lot of use, the kit and redundant items is much different then a kit I take for a multi day backpacking trip into the high country miles away from other people and immediate help (if any).

Nonetheless, there are critical items that are always redundant regardless of event, distance and number of people involved. For example, in my pack, amongst many other items, I carry a BIC lighter, large clear plastic contractors sized bag, small FAK, flashlight, Swedish Steel, Swiss Army Knife or multi-tool, compass. These critical and redundant items are also carried in my pants/jacket pockets or on my belt in the event I ever loose my pack. With these redundant items, my odds of survival have increased significantly.

When I go into the deep woods, I carry a small PSK that fits very tightly in a 6"x7"x2" military pouch that I can place on my belt, or in my game pouch. It has everything I need to survive in the woods in my area for a week or more, and to signal my presence to a SaR team. It is my intention never to open it in the field unless I am in a survival situation. Some of the essential items are lashed together in the pouch and secured with a nylon flag clip. I carry a Wave, mini binocs, a small cell phone, and duplicates of a few items from my PSK in my pockets or belt for use: cord-wrapped sheath knife, 2 bics (one in jacket/shirt, one in pants), whistle, main compass, mini light, and clif bar/trail mix. If I am with someone, I carry a 5 watt GMRS radio too.

Ok I have seen some very good responses, I guess it is my turn to put in my .02...

My mind set is in my EDC I have a swiss army knife, a lighter, a flashlight and a $20 bill.

My PSK expounds on that because I keep it in my vehicle. I have a spare set of cloths (vacuum packed) a jacket (seasonal), a propane lighter, some trail food (granola bars, crackers and cheese etc...) a gun (personal choice - dont want to get into a discussion about that) a canteen 3/4 full and a GPS/GMFR.

In My BOB I expound even further - I wont go into all that I have in there but for example: several sets of cloths, shelter making provisions, MREs for several days, an alcohol stove. What I am getting at is I do redundancy as required according to the mission and lenght of expected time out. I agree with what the others said about having redundancy but not duplication. If something isnt working, then trying the same thing with an identical tool isnt going to produce any better results.


I also agree with the comments made that it has to be something that is ever changing and fitted to your needs. Like I said all I am doing is throwing my opinion into the ring. And you know what they say about opinions, everyone has one.

Good luck.

One good quality Glass Signal Mirror should be all you need. Although a bigger mirror work better one should be enough.

I tell my courses all the time, the more you take the more chances you will have to leave the whole lot behind! (Although physical training and fitness helps).

Think redundancy in terms of taking two or three separate signalling devices, not two of the same. If possible these items should be in two separate places as well (added redundancy).

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Here's some questions and comments that may help further the discussion.

First a little clarification. No military/combat situations, I'm just an average joe with a son in cub scouts trying to make sure we are ready for the first round of spring campouts that are just around the corner. With these campouts there are usually hiking opportunities as well. DS and I both have our own "bugout gear" if you will. If DS gets lost or separated from the rest of the boys and/or myself I want him to be able to signal for help, make a fire and shelter for the night, and otherwise be safe and comfortable until help arrives. Of course there are practical applications to other aspects of our lives. My hope is that the same gear can be tossed in our car in case it breaks down (the trip to Grandma's takes us through several stretches of road where there may be up to 30 miles between exits) or we crash in a ditch, etc. DS is also old enough and enthusiastic enough that we are planning several weekend camping/hiking/fishing/any other outdoor activities we can squeeze in trips this spring and summer to complement/supplement the scouting trips. It would be a lot more convenient IMO to have one set of gear to serve these purposes, rather than build separate kits for car, scouting, home, etc. Is this naive on my part? I am envisioning a rather portable pack or some kind of modular system that can be added to or stripped down as the situation dictates. My thinking is a mini-PSK on our person when additional pack items are not neccessary (say for a short hike close to home or for EDC); add a daypack with additional items for something like a longer day-hike at one of the local state parks or with the scouts; transfer to a full pack for overnighters. But again in all three circumstances, be it EDC, day-hikes, or overnighters, I still question how much redundancy is neccessary and how much is too much?

It also seems I have been misinterpreting redundancy. If I understand unimogbert and nighthiker, if I am carrying a signal mirror, whistle, big orange poncho, and firemaking items, then I am carrying 4 layers of signaling items, right? Redundancy doesn't neccessarily mean carrying one whistle around your neck, one in your pack, still another on your keyring and a final one in your pocket. So if I am carrying a heatsheet blanket or bivvy AND a poncho I am 2 layers deep for shelter. And so on. But it also seems I should still have some redundancy in the critical specific items like firemaking. The reason I say this is I am not confident in my ability to make fire with a bow drill or magnifying lens. Don't get me wrong I understand the basic concepts. Just no practical application to back it up. One of my biggest weaknesses I am afraid. A lot of theory with little practical hands on experience. I hope to correct this shortfall over the next several years but for now I have a long way to go.

I am starting to see some patterns. The amount of redundancy everyone carries seems to be relative to:

- environment
- skill set
- mission

Also the items most people are redundant in are relative mainly to environment. Those in cold environments carry more fire and shelter items; those in the desert are redundant in water and shelter items; and so on. I suspected from the get-go this would be true. At least I was right about something. Personal experience also seems to play a part but this can become dangerous. A person could go years without needing a particular item, thus they leave it out of their kit. Or worse they come to the conclusion they don't need their kit at all. Then one day they need it and they don't have it. But I digress.

Buckeye your gear choices seem to mirror much of my own except for the steel wool and tarp. Unimogbert, as little as DS and I have done we already have several boxes of extra stuff so you can keep yours. AFLM, no junk. We've got eQ headlamps (the DR version), heatsheets bivvys and blankets, PSPs, and similar quality stuff. MH I am always reevaluating, just emphasizing in this case if I need to reevaluate the redundancy issue for the sake of a lighter pack or if I need to spend more time at the gym before spring arrives. I want to trim the pack, just not too much, hence the original question. I have checked out the thread you mentioned and it probably helped my decision to start this one. I was hoping the question would have an easier answer but then nothing in life worth having is easy, is it? Just the chance to peek into everyone else's redundant gear is priceless and I really appreciate the contributions to the discussion thus far. I also appreciate the different perspectives from EDC to wilderness gear and everything in between. Feel free to break it down by category such as EDC, Day Hike, Cross Country, Car Kit, etc. Sue, the pack weight is exactly part of the problem with DS and his gear. It has in it what seems to be just the basics yet it's still too heavy. I separated it into what he would likely be carrying on his person and what would remain in the pack. Some redundancy occurred. That's another factor that made me think about starting this thread. Check out Wildman's thread on "building a BOB for an eight year old" to see the contents. Exactly Ken, but on the flip side of this discussion, when does less become too little? I guess that would be either the thread on the Ultalight hikers or possibly food for another thread, but it is not entirely unrelevant to the current discussion. I digress again. This post is getting really really long so I will try to conclude. Byrd has a point about an emergency kit being sealed until it is actually needed (imagine using up your supply of kit matches because you kept them in your pocket as EDC instead). Epirider it is not if something isn't working (as in the lighter is not catching wet tinder) but rather if the gear fails completely you have a backup (lighter inadvertently ran out of fuel but I have a cache of matches or another lighter in reserve to back it up). Sorry this was so long. Hope i get some more input. Thanks again.

I appreciate - REALLY! - what you are doing. I too have a son (10)and I know what you are saying. It is very regional how we all pack, as well as situational and seasonal. I pack the way I pack because I have lived, worked and played in this neck of the woods for 30+ years. I have developed my packs based on how I perceive my needs. For example if I may - if my lighter fails, I have a different method of making fire, but I will have fire none the less. My pack would not work (optimally) for anyone but me and my skill set. That is not to say that Joe Schmoe couldnt hoist it (them) up and do VERY well with it.

I hope that you take from my posting that there are several options out there that embrace yet vary redundancy. I build on or reduce according to my other packs. This may not work for you and that is fine. Redundancy is based IMHO on YOUR comfort level. If you are comfortable carrying 1 pair of socks with you and 25 different methods of purifying water, then that is what works for you.

I wish you luck and fun this summer, more importantly I hope you and your son are safe and make lasting memories that you can smile back upon. Peace.

The line between preparedness and redundancy is fluid in concept, and constantly differs in practice based on experience, skill, budget, personality, and intent. So no one answer fits all.

I agree with those who suggest looking not to particular gear so much, but to survival function. I start with whatever gear and supplies I think is needed to conquer the "Rule of Threes:" you can perish in 3 minutes without air, in 3 hours of exposure to harsh environment, in 3 days without water, and in 3 weeks without food.

In putting gear and supplies together I think in terms of layes and of multi-task flexibility. I do not consider them redundant but complimentary.

I carry one layer of stuff that seek to address each of the rule of three challenges in my EDC, in my PSK, and in my normal use camping / hiking / traveling gear. If I am traveling in my vehicle I have a fourth set in my vehicle kit. In this way I already have multiple sets of gear / supplies.

Where I can, I choose gear and supplies for each layer that are also multi-function. Things like knives, paracord, freezer bags, space blankets, candles, fishing monofilament, fish hooks, snare wire, duct tape, etcetera, each have so many uses that carrying each creates further levels of preparedness. Learning and practicing multiple uses of gear and supplies is a major preparedness theme.

Edit: I also choose to learn "primitive' skills that offer the ability to recreate whatever I need from the environment with no gear or supplies.

Redundancy has gone too far if your kit is so bulky or heavy that it is bothersome to carry and gets left behind. Or if it slows you down to the point that it creates issues.

Your not deeply enough into redundancy if you are at significant risk of death or serious injury because you don't have something to work with.

In principle it is ridiculously simple. In application it is a complicated, multilayer, puzzle that pits the specifics and probabilities inherent in your particular situation against your preferences and tolerance for risk, burden and frustration.

my .02 cents

Gear < KNOWLEDGE

If 2 is good, three is overkill.

I agree. There is reundancy then there is redundalunacy as we call it.

My gear (depending on season and trip location/distance) is pretty constant and only the most critical items are redundant. Short of losing the backpack, the odds favor you in that you will have whatever is in your pack(s) at your disposal.

Does this work for everyone? Probably not, however after years and 1000's of miles in some the most rugged and remote terrain in NA, this has worked well for me and friends even in some precarious situations. I have found that knowledge, skills and mental resolve are much more useful then carrying questionably redundant items.

1 signal mirror is plenty.
1 heatshield is enough.
3 ways to make a fire ... is more than enough.

You've got to cut weight. I used to try to double up on items (for backups), but more and more I don't do that now - EXCEPT for some critical equipment.

Instead I do the following:

1. Make sure critical items are tough - industrial strength. So they won't break during normal use.
2. Rely on organization. You shouldn't be losing essential gear. Cut weight, and step up your organization.
3. Double-check that you've got all your gear, every time you leave your last rest point.
4. Rely on personal skills to improvise gear, if my stuff gets lost or broken.
5. Don't freak out if you're missing something. Stay cool, keep your sense of humor, adapt.

Just my 2 cents worth.

other Pete

When you have more than three of anything. Something of which I am unquestionably guilty.


Having said that:

Two firelighting sources in your pockets.
One means to purify water.
One means to carry it.
One means of wind/water proofing your shelter.
Cordage.
Basic first aid.
Signaling. Torch, mirror and whistle.
Knife/multitool.

Pack the same again in your bag.

It's also worth having a third set of gear to practice with. That way, if it drops in the pot you are familiar and practiced with your equipment. That can be very confidence enhancing when it drops in the pot.

Here is how I have redundancy.A multi tool or SAK is a back up to my 3 inch locking folder.The folder is a back up to my fixed blade sheath knife when carried.They are all used interchangably depending on the task at hand.
Some things can be back ups with out repeating.Water filters can be backed up by purification tablets.If your water bottle is a Guyot or Klean Kanteen you can boil your water in it.
The main idea is a back up for critical items that are hard or impossible to recreate in the wild is strongly recommended.

BOATMAN
John

Mark,

A GREAT topic, even if there is no single answer. There have been lots of good thoughts presented. It came at an interesting time for me, I am rebuilding my day pack for the comming year.
As posted before, the use and location may make a difference, but even though I am planning for geologic work in wilderness Alaska, the majority of things I carry are the same for a day hike in Florida with my grandson (a Scout). The major difference is clothing. The REAL survival stuff ( the things I don't use except in emergencies) is very limited. A PLB, PSK and mini FAK on the person, plus the usual extra items (The list with the Ritter/AMK kit is a good one) are about it.

However, let's think about the things we EDC that are not carried as survival items, but could be very useful. I will use two of the more important as examples: Water - I carry a Guyot and/or Wiggy's SS bottle, not for survival but normal use. Is it redundant? Yes and No. The water in it is certainly not, it is for normal use. Could it be used to carry or boil water in an emergency - of course. The improvisation is not even much. But is it redundant? I would say not. It is the daily use item and I carry plastic bags (breast milk bags) in my PSK as backup.

The same is true of fire, I carry a match safe in my pocket at all times. But it is not survival gear, but my daily use matches (never got into Bic's). These are used as needed, something I never do with survival gear. The matches in my PSK and the sparklite, and the magnifying glass are there for emergencies. Since I carry a handlens for work there is another level of redundancy. Or is it? I don't count it as such, even though it can be used for that.

I consider any of my daily use items as potential survival items, but since I use them, they are subject to being lost, damaged or used up. For that reason I don't consider them redundant. Almost every item in my PSK has a counterpart in my ruck that is for daily use. They should be there for emergencies but I don't count on them to be available.

I am probably stronger on redundancy than most, but it comes from having to open the "open only in emergencies" kit too many times and spending a lot of time alone in the far reaches.



The best,

Jerry

Well, okay, there's alternative redundancy and then there's outright duplication. If given the choice, the preference should always lean toward multi taskers, although bear in mind that also almost always means a compromise in functionality.

As I learned in Baghdad (origin of the parable about the straw and the camel's back??), after donning 50+ lbs of armor in 100+ degrees, the weight of the gear bag is so critical I would consider breaking my wooden pencil in half or more to lighten the load.

Jerry, glad my timing worked out well for you. I am still struggling with the idea and concept of redundancy as I put kits together and I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to read and comment. Please keep the ideas and comments coming. I may post lists in the future so I can get specific comments on where I am overdoing it and what I can "chop" from the list to lighten the load. Thanks again everyone.