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#195317 - 02/08/10 01:26 AM Aviation question
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
OK, as some of you may be aware, I'm trying to be a budding author. I'm working on something where characters (already known to be pilots) are in communication with ATC and other aircraft, and I want to get the lingo right. Is there a good translator/glossary/primer for ATC langauge, in particular the designation of callsings. I know the tail number is part of it, and calling the Concorde "speedbird" makes sense, but at what point does a plane become "heavy" and is that even a real term of just hollyweird sillies?

I've always treated the aircraft with a lot handwavium- it takes off, it flies, sometimes it bounces a little, every so often they even have to go around again. But I'd like to get some more detail.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#195318 - 02/08/10 01:51 AM Re: Aviation question [Re: ironraven]
Andy Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/13/07
Posts: 378
Loc: SE PA
Do a Google search for online scanner sites for airports and listen on a regular basis, you'll soon pick up the syntax and the rythym. There are also sites that will list call signs and the references to the airlines they represent.

One thing to listen for is how pilots repeat back the controllers' instructions and civility of the conversations.

At Airnavsystems.com you can also get trial programs that allow you to follow flights and track their communications with both ATC and their airline communications centers.

Good luck on your writing efforts!
_________________________
In a crisis one does not rise to one's level of expectations but rather falls to one's level of training.

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#195319 - 02/08/10 02:15 AM Re: Aviation question [Re: Andy]
ironraven Offline
Cranky Geek
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 09/08/05
Posts: 4642
Loc: Vermont
Thanks Andy.

I should make some clarification I think.

I live less than 5 miles from BTV and can pick up the frequency, so I'm getting the rythem that is used, at least up here. I can also follow most of it, but I want to figure out things like, how a large aircraft would be IDed, or how something that is best classified as "experimental" might be refered to. And how to make up a proper set of call letters and use them right.

I know that if I can sell it, 95% of my readers won't care. It like accuracy though. It means the 5% who do care don't whine at me, and I get the satisfaction of knowing that it left here right.
_________________________
-IronRaven

When a man dare not speak without malice for fear of giving insult, that is when truth starts to die. Truth is the truest freedom.

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#195320 - 02/08/10 02:33 AM Re: Aviation question [Re: ironraven]
KG2V Offline

Veteran

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 1371
Loc: Queens, New York City
From answers.yahoo.com

"AIRCRAFT WEIGHT CLASSES

a. Heavy. Aircraft capable of takeoff weights of more than 255,000 pounds whether or not they are operating at this weight during a particular phase of flight.

b. Large. Aircraft of more than 41,000 pounds, maximum certificated takeoff weight, up to 255,000 pounds.

c. Small. Aircraft of 41,000 pounds or less maximum certificated takeoff weight."

Any aircraft that is classified as a heavy in this manual must use the word heavy when communicating with airtraffic control on or near the airport, with the exception of the Boeing 757, which also must use "heavy".
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You are what you do when it counts - The Masso
Homepage: http://www.thegallos.com
Blog: http://kg2v.blogspot.com

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#195321 - 02/08/10 02:41 AM Re: Aviation question [Re: ironraven]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#195322 - 02/08/10 02:50 AM Re: Aviation question [Re: ironraven]
big_al Offline
Addict

Registered: 01/04/06
Posts: 586
Loc: 20mi east of San Diego
Find some one with Microsoft Flight simulator 2002 or Fight Simulator X they have a section on control tower and you will learn how the ATC (air traffic control) works and sounds.
_________________________
Some people try to turn back their odometers.
Not me, I want people to know "why" I look this way
I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved

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#195324 - 02/08/10 02:56 AM Re: Aviation question [Re: Russ]
ch451 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 8
First for proper wording, use the FAR AIM, if you are looking for callsigns of carriers go to Airline pilot central. Look at a company profile and you will get there call sign, hope that helps.


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#195344 - 02/08/10 02:55 PM Re: Aviation question [Re: ch451]
thseng Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 900
Loc: NW NJ
IR, Here's an example of badly written exchange between a pilot and ATC. The scenario is that the aircraft has just lost both engines and is about to ditch in a river.

I've crossed out the mistake and added a more realistic response in bold.


L116 — cactus fifteen twenty nine turn right two eight zero you can land runway one at teterboro

AWE1549 — we can’t do it

L116 — okay which runway would you like at teterboro

AWE1549 — we’re gonna be in the hudson

L116 — i’m sorry say again cactus roger, cactus, you're cleared into the hudson
_________________________
- Tom S.

"Never trust and engineer who doesn't carry a pocketknife."

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#195346 - 02/08/10 03:19 PM Re: Aviation question [Re: thseng]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5359
Loc: SOCAL
Wouldn't AWE1549 need to request clearance into the Hudson before ATC can authorize? They'd probably have received a, "Roger AWE1549, standby, clearance is on request" as a response. Besides that I'm not sure ATC controls the airspace in the Hudson so they probably couldn't have cleared AWE1549 as requested. wink
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#195348 - 02/08/10 03:46 PM Re: Aviation question [Re: Russ]
NobodySpecial Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 197

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#195354 - 02/08/10 04:20 PM Re: Aviation question [Re: NobodySpecial]
nurit Offline
Member

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 191
Loc: NYC
Priceless! grin

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#195361 - 02/08/10 05:27 PM Re: Aviation question [Re: nurit]
NobodySpecial Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 197
Originally Posted By: nurit
Priceless! grin

I especially liked
Controller: "AF53, it appears your engine has... oh... disregard, I see you've already ejected."

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#195374 - 02/08/10 06:58 PM Re: Aviation question [Re: ironraven]
KTOA Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 86
Loc: SoCal
... well ... if you want complete accuracy, below is the link to the FAA ATC communication bible. It's only 602 pages ...

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.65T.pdf

I'm strict with my flying students on teaching/using correct terminology. Anything less is a waste of valuable radio air time and can lead to misunderstandings. Drives me crazy having to listen to the occasional Chuck Yeager wannabe trying to be cool but is just an incident waiting to happen.

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#195377 - 02/08/10 07:21 PM Re: Aviation question [Re: KG2V]
KTOA Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/08/04
Posts: 86
Loc: SoCal
Heavy is a real term and is necessary. Using the term heavy alerts ATC that you are indeed big & heavy. Why do we care?

Every aircraft creates wake turbulence as it flies through the air. The bigger & heavier you are the more aircraft upsetting wake turbulence you create behind your aircraft. Simply explained, a corkscrew stream of air is created behind each wingtip. The oncoming aircraft flies into it and is usually rolled inverted. Typically this occurs low to the ground (on landing approach) with little time to recover. Wake turbulence is scary stuff.

So the term heavy alerts the controller they need to maintain a minimum distance between you and the aircraft behind you. And the 757 is included in the term heavy because it creates a nasty wake turbulence behind it even though it doesn't meet all of the requirements. The FAA figured out that one the hard way.

An with the Airbus 380 coming online it's created a 'super' category requiring up to 10 miles of separation. One major drawback to that is as more come online then fewer aircraft can land per hour creating more flight delays. Funny how things can all be inter-related.


Edited by KTOA (02/08/10 07:39 PM)
Edit Reason: Added A380

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