"You are permitted in time of great danger to walk with the devil until you have crossed the bridge." - Bulgarian proverb

How does this apply to survival? How does it apply to the individual, a group of survivors, the surrounding society? Discuss what this means, might mean, or does not mean. Are there limits? Where are the limits? Cover any or all aspect of that that interest you.

I don't want to narrow the discussion by weighing in to early. I will in a day or three.

TH to http://scienceblogs.com/clock/2010/01/clock_quotes_542.php

What is the Bulgarian meaning of "crossing the bridge"? That would have some implications to the overall meaning.

I take it that in times of dire need you ally with whoever that can help you, including those that you'd normally want to shy away from. Not sure if that is such good survival advice. May be valid to a certain extent (i.e. explore all options), but with limitations.

My take is that you are allowed to do some things in the name of staying alive and protecting your people and things that you wouldn't ordinarily do.

For example: bypass helping an injured person if I feel his injuries are so severe that his recovery would be in doubt without hospital care. I may use deadly force to protect myself even if not on my own property. Things like that. You don't go out and commit outright evil acts, but more sins of omission.

The bridge referred to is what gets you past the "great danger" as a bridge crossing a river. The concept is similar to the saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"; once the first enemy is dealt with you need to reassess your friends. USA and USSR were friends until the great danger of the Third Reich had been dealt with; immediately after the two "friends" became hostile while the USA and UK remained allies.

How does all that relate to survival? Does it justify cannibalism to avoid starvation? That has happened.

I see the quote as something to rationalize doing something that is socially unacceptable -- way outside the norms and possibly illegal. Breaking into a Wal-Mart to get what you need to survive. Stealing a car to get away from danger when other means just won't work. Killing someone trying to get your stuff so that he can make it through another day.

Another way to look at it in a survival sense is that you are doing what is necessary in the moment because you didn't do what needed to be done to prepare before the moment.

I'll leave it there, but I'll probably be back.

With all due respect and proactive apologies to the Bulgarian American Association and all Bulgarian embassies and consulates - maybe the proverb means something in Bulgaria, in the US, not so much.

Bulgarians on the whole have had a harder life than Americans. They have a much longer history. Byzantines, Ottomans, you name it, Bulgaria has seen the conflicts that make the US Civil War pale in comparison. They even have a mighty river in the Danube, and over time I'm sure lots of folks have crossed it hand in hand with the Devil.

I'm a firm believer that different cultures create different sustaining myths, the thing that gets you through the day and hard times. I see it every day with a Russian friend, an old Soviet who has a distinctly different sense of living. He says Americans are afraid of death, and our focus on preparedness is a manifestation of wanting to stay alive at all costs. To him our focus on safety, even fire alarms, warnings about carbon monoxide from bad furnaces and cooking indoors, its all hooey. Not long ago a nightclub in Moscow burned down and killed hundreds, we had entirely different views on that. Its not that he is ignorant and I am smart, its that he and alot of other Russians grew up with a different sense of how to live their lives. And I don't think he sees being "afraid of death" as being a real weakness, its a response to living that has worked pretty darn well for most of America for a long while. It does constitute a gap he can't easily cross through, being who he is.

Here's my response to the proverb - if TEOTWAWKI happens, the Bulgarian next door may respond differently than the rest of your non-Bulgarian neighbors.

When Moses came down from Mt. Sinai he witnessed the tribes of Israel worshiping the Golden Calf. He commanded the righteous to take their swords and strike down the wicked, their own brothers and family. Killing 3,000 of their own for turning away from the Lord (Exodus 25:27-29)

How does this apply to survival? I think this is a clear example. Sometimes you must enter into evil in order to preserve and save the worthy and righteous.

As they say, whatever it takes to survive.

I think that 'walking with the Devil' means doing things you know are wrong, like stealing, but you shouldn't beat yourself up about it if you have to do things like steal food to feed your kids, or take a blanket to keep them warm.

Religion tends to see things as absolutes, and real life just isn't that simple.

However, it doesn't mean robbing a convenience store to buy an XBox: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010858317_robbery22m.html

Sue

I just saw this statement on another blog:

"Morality in the face of danger is what makes some people noble, and others scum."

It seemed relevant to this discussion. Everyone has a choice about which one they want to be.