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#193884 - 01/19/10 06:17 AM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: Susan]
rafowell Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 261
Loc: Southern California
Originally Posted By: Susan
I googled 'airline survival training' and didn't find much.
Sue


This is a topic I'd expect Doug Ritter to know a lot about.

I don't have any special personal knowledge other than buying
signal mirrors surplused from airline refurbishment of life raft
kits, but Googling a bit:

Here's a photo of Lufthansa crew practicing with signal mirrors:
( you knew I was going to get that in ... )
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1097254627028551299bautqq

Wikipedia says (though I don't see a targeted citation) of flight
attendant training:
" Safety training includes, but is not limited to: ...
survival in the jungle, sea, desert, ice, ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_attendant#Training

There should be a fair amount of survival equipment on board,
including 2 days of food per passenger.
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_125-209.html

and it seems the crew should know how to use it, per
FARS 121-417(b)(2)(1) and FARS 135-331(b)(2)(1)
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_121-417.html
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_135-331.html

Here's one school with safety classes:
http://www.flightsafety.com/fs_service_aviation_training_role.php?div=30&code=R
http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_135-331.html

That web site you found: http://www.etisurvival.com/pil.htm ,
is an excellent find, btw.
_________________________
A signal mirror should backup a radio distress signal, like a 406 MHz PLB (ACR PLB) (Ocean Signal PLB)

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#193888 - 01/19/10 11:45 AM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: Streamside]
Leigh_Ratcliffe Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/06
Posts: 1355
Loc: United Kingdom.
Get what ever clothing and blankets you have, get everyone to huddle together for warmth. Pray. There's not much else you can do on a commerical flight. frown
_________________________
I don't do dumb & helpless.

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#193889 - 01/19/10 12:09 PM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: Leigh_Ratcliffe]
Russ Offline
Geezer

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 5357
Loc: SOCAL
Quote:
perfect belly glide on the ice up north. Temp in the deep frost category. Say -20 or -30 F. It would easily be half a day to a full day before someone got up there. What would be the key techniques to staying alive in a fully equipped 777? I am gonna assume they have lost all power.

Since the plane is intact, there's lots of warmer clothing in the luggage compartment. However, belly landing on ice? will probably rip the aircraft apart before it stops, but it's your scenario.

First thing I'd do is try to restart the APU.
_________________________
Better is the Enemy of Good Enough.
Okay, what’s your point??

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#193901 - 01/19/10 02:48 PM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: Russ]
MDinana Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 03/08/07
Posts: 2208
Loc: Beer&Cheese country
Don't forget that you could rig the emergency rafts as shelters or wind breaks. There's bound to be those hideous blankets in the plane. And, yeah, scrounge the luggage - even if the bottome is torn up, you'll find a trail of luggage spreading back from where you first touched down. Plus slogging through snow will keep your body temp up!

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#193925 - 01/19/10 07:58 PM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: MDinana]
MostlyHarmless Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 06/03/09
Posts: 982
Loc: Norway
If you crash leaves you floating in icy water you're dead in minutes without a dedicated cold water survival suit. Wearing one of those on a regular trans-atlantic flight is a bit over the top for even the most über-prepared, isn't it? I have absolutely no idea of how the rafts on a commercial airline works, but I imagine it could give you perhaps as much as a couple of hours before freezing to death.

Originally Posted By: MDinana
Plus slogging through snow will keep your body temp up!


That's only good advice if you're dressed for it. If not, I can promise you that slogging through snow is hellish work that will make you very wet, very tired and very soon very cold.

In fact, even dressed for it, slogging through snow _*will*_ make you wet (and tired). If you have to, improvise some snow shoes and poles.

As stated above, if you're stranded in the middle of Arctic nowhere in typical every day clothing, your best bet is to make the best use of whatever you have available for shelter, huddle together for warmth and pray.

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#193949 - 01/20/10 01:34 AM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: MostlyHarmless]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
I was thinking about this question last night while driving home.

Airliners are built to withstand a certain amount of cold. From the information I could find online, the outside of an airliner can be exposed to temps as low as -60º. I also found that the planes are wrapped in an insulating blanket.

I have no idea what the heat source might be for the interior of the plane, but without the plane running, I would assume that the power source isn't, either.

All the humans aboard would produce heat, varying according to what they're doing and if they've been eating.

"The human body maintains a basic minimum rate of heat production at about 250 Btu/hr during sleep, the heat equivalent of about 75 watts, and about 400 Btu/hr (120 watts) when awake but sedentary. As bodily activity increases, the rate of oxidation of food, with its attendant release of energy, must increase. The level of heat production for light work will be about 650 Btu/hr (190 watts)." http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/pubs/cbd/cbd102_e.html

Someone, somewhere, must have done the math on a question like this. Intact plane space inside x number of people x BTUs = interior temperature. Or something.

Sue

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#193953 - 01/20/10 01:50 AM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: Susan]
sodak Offline
Addict

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 410
The engines are the heat source for the most part, hydraulic fluid is routed through the wings for de-icing, and pre-heating fuel.

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#193961 - 01/20/10 02:20 AM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: Streamside]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
I realize we are dealing with hypotheticals here, but it seems to me that crashes of commercial aircraft in the Arctic are kinda rare, like I can't remember hearing of any. Has there ever been a commercial plane crash on an icecap with passengers surviving the impact and resorting to survival techniques?
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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#193980 - 01/20/10 03:42 AM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: hikermor]
Susan Offline
Geezer

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 5163
Loc: W. WA
A C-130 Hercules crashed just 12 miles from an Aleut settlement in 1991, breaking up when it hit. All 18 aboard survived initially, but some didn't last through the cold.
After a Plane Crash, 30 Deadly Hours in the Arctic

A Russian airliner crashed and burned north of the Arctic Circle in 2005, with 24 survivors.
29 are killed in Russian plane crash in Arctic

Having an airliner land in the Arctic intact maybe has never happened. OTOH, how many times have you seen an airliner land on a river in January with 156 occupants walking off the wings to safety?

We haven't seen everything yet.

Sue

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#193992 - 01/20/10 12:32 PM Re: Air Crash in Artic survival [Re: Susan]
hikermor Offline
Geezer in Chief
Geezer

Registered: 08/26/06
Posts: 7705
Loc: southern Cal
Great information! Thanks.
_________________________
Geezer in Chief

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