I've seen a lot of cool stuff here and around the 'net on survival tins. A lot are really thought out and pretty slick.<br><br>If someone had a survival tin around the size of an Altoids container, how would they use that to help collect and purify water? I know you can squeeze purification tabs in there, but where do you put the water? I've seen people put condoms in there as well, but how long before it breaks?<br><br>Is the answer that a survival tin is not enough, or is there some method I don't know?<br><br><br>Peace and God Bless America<br><br>Chris

Are you talking about storing water in the survival tin? if thats the case thats not really practical because thats not much of a drink and that leaves no room for survival "gear"<br><br><br>

The pocket tin is your minimum " don't leave home without it" kit. It has the bare essentials to get started, but certainly isn't sufficient for long term needs altogether.The condom will do, but yes, it's fragile. You would need to improvise a water container. So, whats out there? Native peoples made canteens out of animal guts, hollowed gourds and basketry. The artifacts of contemporary resourses are often present; glass and plastic bottles are all to common and waterways may carry them well beyond human traffic.Actually, a dedicated collapsable container isn't that bulky. Something similar to the military survival container ( it looks like a I qt. opaque plastic balloon) is easily stashed in a coat jacket.<br><br>

No, I was wondering how to store water when all you had available was the survival tin. It seemed to me that the little altoids-type survival tins weren't practical; I was thinking there should be more options included- like a lunchbox sized tin with a metal bowl.<br><br>Maybe instead of a survival tin, a fanny pack loaded with more gear plus an aluminum canteen+canteen cup would be a better choice. I just got a little confused on all the emphasis (popularity?) on little "bare bones" survival kits. In fact, a lot of the books talk and talk about those small kits on page 1, but then the rest of the book teaches techniques using tools that aren't in the kit at all.<br><br><br>Peace and God Bless America<br><br>Chris

It seems to me to be a practical gap in the gear, for the mini-kits at least.<br><br>I've seen the questions asked, here and elsewhere, about how you fill a condom or a balloon from a trickling spring, stream or seep, but I’ve never heard a good answer. I can’t see it working at all, myself (have you ever tried to UNTIE a rubber balloon? I don't imagine condoms are easier), but I don’t have a better solution. When cornered on the issue, a lot of people seem to start talking about the other containers they carry- I think that tells us something. The mylar party balloons seem to be of uneven quality and generally too large for an Altoids kit anyway. Even the HD gallon ziplocks are too large for that size kit.<br><br>I like the Platypus bag/bottles a lot, I have a couple in various pouches, they store flat and comparatively small, but still far to big for this size container.<br><br>I just recently ordered some “3-pint pilot’s survival water bags”, apparently Desert Storm vintage (unissued) they look to be the most compact containers I’ve seen other than balloons and condoms, the material looks like something like IV bag stuff, with a neck having a zip lock closure. I think these will be flatter/smaller than the Platypus bags, but I’m not optimistic that even they’ll store small enough for the smallest kits. <br><br>What we really need is a resealable 1 liter mylar bag with a neck, sort of like a large Mainstay water bottle with a zip lock. <br><br>Maybe we’re looking at this wrong- in urban and even rural areas containers abound, plastic pop and water bottles are trash everywhere, and could be washed out and used in a real pinch. In true wilderness, if you’re not on the move, you could dig or build a basin shape and line it with sheet plastic and use the iodine tables there (I’d advise against garbage bags- I hear persistent rumors that there’s insecticide in the plastic of at least some to keep roaches from getting into the garbage). The weak point is thus reduced to being on the move in true wilderness- and that’s where I’d have very little faith in the condom or balloon anyway. I think the chance of abrasion, puncture or rupture would be very high over, say, 20 miles on foot.<br><br>P.S.- for decades, when backpacking, I’ve carried a 6-8 foot length of aquarium tubing, the smallest diameter I can get, and it has often made all the difference on trips. Trying to fill bottles from a spring or stream that just barely trickles is endlessly frustrating without it, but if I can find or make a spot deep enough for one end of the tubing (about a quarter inch), I can set up a siphon, and the canteens fill without work or attention while I'm free to do other things. Makes a HUGE difference in the summer. The longer the length, the easier and faster the siphon where there’s not much slope.<br><br><br>

Chris, Altoid type tins are emphasized because they will always be on you. We can easily lose everything else through misadventure, but if we survive, a securely pocketed tin and knife will do so also. You may get washed overboard in rapids, have to egress a burning aircraft seconds before explosion, or watch an avalanche take everything.Minimum is a conocopia of resources compared to nothing.<br><br>

I agree, this is a real limitation of the mini-kit concept and a condom just isn't much of a solution in my opinion. I look at this in one of 3 ways, depending on the situation:<br><br>1) You can carry the mini-kit in one pocket and something like a platypus water bag in another pocket.<br><br>2) In many circumstances where being in a survival situation is likely, such as on a hike or camping trip, you are going to be carrying a canteen with you anyway, so that is what you use. Or you will have other stuff you can improvise with.<br><br>3) If all you have is the micro-kit and nothing else, and you are so remote that it is unlikely you can even scavenge a littered soda bottle, and you are unable to fabricate something out of natural materials, then, well... your luck just ran out. You would have to take your chances with the water quality. After you get out of the situation, you can see a doctor about any parasites or whatever. <br><br>But I think it is a mistake to think of the mini kit as the beginning and end of your equipment. It is just supplemental to the other things you have with you and those things are just supplemental to what you can draw from your environment. If your mini kit had everything you needed to survive, it would be a backpack (or an RV).<br><br>

CastAway,<br><br>I certainly don’t disagree with anything you said. I do think that the ability to carry water across distances with no water is more important than the ability to purify it- here in the East, even with a map showing every spring and stream, you can easily be 10 miles from the next one.. and without a map, you can be 3 feet away and not know it... but the two abilities sort of come together. <br><br>We have a similar situation with knives, I think. Many of the mini-kits put forth have very little in the way of a knife- x-acto blades, razor blades, maybe a Gerber LST, but most if not all survival-oriented folks rank a knife as a VERY high priority, and count on carrying something more substantial separately (no one is going to be making fuzz sticks or tent pegs with a razor blade).<br><br>So, for the tiny kits, we really have at least two areas where they’re not adequate. That says to me that if you really need one self-contained kit, something that works *independent* of other assumed carry items, then you need something larger. Maybe not much larger, but not an Altoids tin.<br><br>That still leaves a couple of interesting areas for discussion, though:<br><br>Has anyone, ever, really made a condom or balloon work under realistic conditions, including filling from a trickle, iodine treatment, sealing, reopening, and carrying for serious distance, or can we safely chuck that concept and move on?<br><br>If that doesn’t really work, what is the smallest viable product that will (I’ll see how the military survival water bags I’ve ordered work out, and I’ve read some discussion of IV bags), and why isn’t there something better? It’s hard to believe that in the 21st Century, we have absolutely nothing at all that will reliably hold a liter of water and fold into, say, 3 cubic inches or less, at least initially. That’s pretty sad. The tech has to exist.<br><br>Mylar? Lined Tyvek? Wine box liner? Vacuum seal bags? Grocery plastic bags are pretty tough for their bulk, just too big and no neck… what is that they sell tropical fish in? Suggestions?<br><br>

Sometimes you overlook things that are right in front of your face! One of my hobbies is keeping tropical fish. I frequently ship and receive small fish via the mail. The fish are shipped in plastic bags. One of the bag sizes we use is approx 2.25” x 8”. The manufactures offer the bags in different thicknesses. One of these folded up may fit nicely in the PSK and be a short-term alternative to condoms. We seal the bags by spinning the tops and either tying a knot or by doubling over the twisted end and wrap a small rubberband around several times.<br><br>But there’s more! Just this week I received a box where the shipper used a relatively new product called Breathable Bags from Kordon. They are gas permiable, which helps the fish by allowing the CO2 to escape and the oxygen to enter the water. I don’t know if that matters or not with purification tablets. Buit what caught my attention was how elastic they were. The shipped tied them in a tight knot that I could not untie, so I decided to puncture the bag using my index finger, which I can easily do with the traditional poly bags. But I could not do it with these as easily. I’m sure I could have applied much more preasure and puncture the bag, but I didn’t want to harm the fish <s>. So I ended up using a knife to slice the top off. The point is that these bags are far more durable than regular poly bags and my hold up rather well in the PSK tin as well as during actual use in the field.<br><br>Unfortunately, they are not sold through retail. The few folks I know that use them ship enough to justify buying case lots from industry contacts they know. I could get a couple of samples for testing if folks are interested. Anyone planning on being out in the field soon?<br><br>>>>P.S.- for decades, when backpacking, I’ve carried a 6-8 foot length of aquarium tubing, the smallest diameter I can get, … I can set up a siphon, and the canteens fill without work or attention <<<<br><br>Nice tip!<br><br><br>Willie Vannerson<br>McHenry, IL

The vacuum bags that my deer sausage came in worked fine as water containers and form a nice stable cylinder about 3" by 10." They are food grade also. If you want a larger capacity, try the clear oven, baking bags. They are very strong and also food grade. If you can put a turkey in one and bake him at 350 degrees, it must be tough. Put a quart of water in one and made several walk and drop tests. They are very durable. Never had it burst or leak after several drops. Put 2 quarts in and threw it about 15 ft. upwards. If I had not tied it so tight I think it would have survived. If you don't unfold them out of the box, they are very compact. Not to mention very low cost.<br><br>Regards<br>Bruce G.<br><br>